How powerful is Kiljaedan ?

[Deleted]

While we are the same heroes, the circumstances are different, though. We faced LK by ourselves + Tyrion only (with a weapon made from what was supposed to be pieces of a Naaru). On the other hand, we got the help of the Aspects + the Dragon Soul to fight against Deathwing. We had the assistance of the incarnation of the Sunwell (Aveena) to push KJ back. We never defeat Archimonde @ Hyjal lore-wise, we just bought time for the wisp to explode on him. Lastly, we faced KJ at HFC with the help of Y'rel, Khadgar & Grom, plus we all were empowered by Naaru (who are actually powerful beings even though they haven't done anything in game) and / or the elements of Draenor.

I know that more powerful entities than Tyrion helped us in the battle against the others villains. I'm just pointing out that those villains could be held/weakened by us long enough for such entities to act. Heck, according to Chronicles Lei Shen had the power of A TITAN, and he fell to us without any help. The Lich King proved to be capable to instatly wipe the same heroes + Tyrion with little to no effort, to the point that he was playing with us all the expansion.

Again, this is just bad writing from Blizzard, but it happened and it's canon, and has to be taken into account when comparing the various villains of the series.

Except Arthas was never a student of KJ. His entire power comes from two items infused with magic by KJ. Its closer to someone claiming they are a flight expert because they sit in a plane. The pilot was the expert, not you. For all we know KJ could as easily stop frostmourn and the helm of domination from working (he made them). Making Arthas powerless again.

KJ did not make either the Plate of The Damned nor Frostmourne, the nathrezim did. They were supposed to be the "husk" for Ner'zhul soul, not the source of the power. Ner'zhul actually developed most of it's power on his own once freed from the rules of the living, without his jailers noticing. This is well explained in the books during The War of the Spider.

Despite the power creep of the Lich King figure in general (Ner'zhul - Arthas - Bolvar), I doubt it can come close to KJ, but it would be equally foolish to think that KJ can easily stops or revert something that got out of his hands in the first place.

Yeah, Velen's vision should be a definite end to people blowing Lich King out of proportion.

Or not.
Visions are per se insiginificant, if they don't come to pass. Velen also saw Anduin at the head of the army of light defeating the legion, while apparently NOW the savior of all will be some kind of holy Illidan.

This is just again bad writing from Blizz side, we can take it into account, but until we actually see with our own eyes (alternate universe similar to End of Time) the scourge being toyed with by the Legion, velen Vision has no relevance.

[Scyclone]

I don't really agree with your order, but this part I wanted to focus on. I used to believe 1v1 Old Gods could take a single Titan, believing there was numerous unnamed ones, but that changed when they clarified that there was only the titans named and the rest were just their armies. Aman'thul ripped the strongest of the Old Gods out of Azeroth which killed it(worst lore retcon ever!!!) so I guess it's safe to assume any of the other Titans could do the same, especially to N'zoth the weakest of the 4 Old Gods(so far) on Azeroth.

Also Sargeras, it's said was only able to kill the other Titans because fel was more effective on Titans who were more about that arcane. If he was still a regular Titan, he wouldn't have soloed them.

In fairness, it is a relatively gray area once you reach that point. Sargeras isn't vastly stronger than other Titans but he is still more potent vs them than they would be vs him, due to the Fel.

I do not believe that the Titans can roflpwn all of the Old Gods without reprecussion. I'd still wager that the two would be close in a conflict, to which an Old God has just as likely a chance to win as the Titans do. More specifically, Old Gods don't always fight from the perspective of physical might... which is why considering N'zoth to be weaker than the other old gods can be both a true and a false statement.

I'd is hard to gauge the "power" level of these things once you get past Kil'jaeden level imo. The only definite, is that they are stronger than something like Kil'jaeden by a hefty margin.

[Zulkhan]

Lol, you are so salty

Ah, seems I was wrong. Even your vocabulary didn't expand. A pity.

[MikeBogina]

In fairness, it is a relatively gray area once you reach that point. Sargeras isn't vastly stronger than other Titans but he is still more potent vs them than they would be vs him, due to the Fel.

I do not believe that the Titans can roflpwn all of the Old Gods without reprecussion. I'd still wager that the two would be close in a conflict, to which an Old God has just as likely a chance to win as the Titans do. More specifically, Old Gods don't always fight from the perspective of physical might... which is why considering N'zoth to be weaker than the other old gods can be both a true and a false statement.

I'd is hard to gauge the "power" level of these things once you get past Kil'jaeden level imo. The only definite, is that they are stronger than something like Kil'jaeden by a hefty margin.

I agree, it's hard because you never see an actual fight. Everytime we've seen an Old God, they're already preoccupied with corrupting a Titan, which most likely makes them vulnerable. I think in terms of corruption, manipulation and just plain out understanding of how the world/universe works, the Old Gods are second to none.

I do think that an Old God given the chance to attack a Titan could potentially do a lot of damage, but we'll probably never see that happen. But I do think we'll see a corrupted Titan vs Azeroth or Sargeras

[Qualia]

Straight out destroying a planet? No I don't think anyone has that lvl of power besides Titans and possibly Old Gods. If you referring to an Eredar destroying a planet in a vision, that lacks a lot of context.

We've seen few times of people causing tons of destruction, or doing something like create a volcano or lift an island out of the ocean, that didn't reflect their actual combat power. AU Gul'dan is probably the stronger of the 2, but he couldn't defeat Khadgar in combat, and we've never seen Khadgar do anything on the scale of Gul'dan. And then we have Ner'zhul who destroyed a planet with a single spell, albeit on accident, but it was still his doing and still didn't reflect his lvl of power.

Ner'zhul was a different case, though. He had to use different artifacts (Scepter of Sargeras, Book of Medivh and Eye of Dalaran, can't remember if he used Skull of Gul'dan as well) to boost his power for that, and he only opened portals - destroying Draenor was an indirect result of that. Because of that, you are right that it didn't reflect his level of power, his true power was weaker than that. However, the unknown eredar (presumably KJ or Archimonde, given that those two are the most powerful among the Eredars) destroyed that world, ripped its surface apart and left behind nothing alive directly with his own power.

I'm also not sure if AU Gul'dan was stronger than Khadgar before he got empowered in the Tomb of Sargeras, to be honest. MU Gul'dan might be one thing, but - I can be missing WoD stuffs here - did AU Gul'dan do anything impressive? (before he was empowered) As far as I can recall, his most impressive feat was to open the portal for Archimonde, and he need time to prepare & the residual energy of Garrosh's portal for that.

We can only look at what they've done and we've fought both. Kil'Jaeden tried everything to beat us and couldn't. Those same adventurers more powerful, were given a handicap and they still couldn't beat Arthas. It's plain and simple, lore-wise, Arthas could have killed everyone and Tirion in a single blow, but he didn't. He let them give it their all and beat on him till he was satisfied.

Lore-wise, though, Kil'Jaeden was winning against us - and he hadn't even fully crossed over yet. That's why Anveena decided to sacrifice herself, as she realized we wouldn't have won otherwise. After that, Kil'Jaeden was weakened and assaulted by the power of the Sunwell, that's a big handicap there given how powerful the Sunwell was (even taken into account that it wasn't at its best then). I don't think there was any direct comparison between the two, but I'd be really surprised if the Sunwell is less powerful than the Ashbringer.

Also, I don't think we should consider only the fights in game. Sure, they are a factor, but we need to consider what was shown outside of the game as well. The raid encounters don't always reflect how powerful a character is. For example, lore-wise, KJ / Archimonde can destroy Azeroth the moment they stepped on it (more Archimonde, as KJ hasn't gotten here yet). Archimonde also show his ability to damage or kill targets miles away (almost killed Rhonin in WoTA). They just can't use those abilities on us when it matters because if they kill us and win, there wouldn't be a game anymore.

Also remember that Grommash, not once, but twice killed Mannoroth with an ordinary axe(Sexy af axe) and that dude was stronger than your average Eredar.

Gorehowl is not an ordinary axe, though. People usually miss this part because it was added by Blizzard before WoD. It's a magical axe that was enchanted with the hearts of six legendary Groon, granting it untold strength.
Additionally, first time Grom did it, he was high on demon blood. Second time, Mannoroth was damaged by the Iron Ball before. Plus, I'm quite sure KJ would be way stronger / durable than Mannoroth.

I do not believe that the Titans can roflpwn all of the Old Gods without reprecussion. I'd still wager that the two would be close in a conflict, to which an Old God has just as likely a chance to win as the Titans do. More specifically, Old Gods don't always fight from the perspective of physical might... which is why considering N'zoth to be weaker than the other old gods can be both a true and a false statement.

No way the two would be close, seeing how easily Aman'thul killed Y'Shaarj. The Titans and the Void Lords are probably on the same level of characters (not talking about their power since we don't know much about the Void Lords other than they are envious of the Titans' power). The Old Gods are probably closer to the Naaru instead.

[Night Wind]

Ah, seems I was wrong. Even your vocabulary didn't expand. A pity.

I just call it as I see it. You are salty. You say I "argue gibberish", I didn't know quoting blue posts was "gibberish". Face it, you are butthurt over nothing.

[Wildmoon]

Straight out destroying a planet? No I don't think anyone has that lvl of power besides Titans and possibly Old Gods. If you referring to an Eredar destroying a planet in a vision, that lacks a lot of context.

We've seen few times of people causing tons of destruction, or doing something like create a volcano or lift an island out of the ocean, that didn't reflect their actual combat power. AU Gul'dan is probably the stronger of the 2, but he couldn't defeat Khadgar in combat, and we've never seen Khadgar do anything on the scale of Gul'dan. And then we have Ner'zhul who destroyed a planet with a single spell, albeit on accident, but it was still his doing and still didn't reflect his lvl of power.



We can only look at what they've done and we've fought both. Kil'Jaeden tried everything to beat us and couldn't. Those same adventurers more powerful, were given a handicap and they still couldn't beat Arthas. It's plain and simple, lore-wise, Arthas could have killed everyone and Tirion in a single blow, but he didn't. He let them give it their all and beat on him till he was satisfied.

Frostmourne was held up high, using it's power when Tirion struck it with Ashbringer, a weapon that already has an extreme advantage over decay and on top of that, was being empowered by the Light even further. I'd love to see Kil'jaeden's neck try to not split in that same situation. Also remember that Grommash, not once, but twice killed Mannoroth with an ordinary axe(Sexy af axe) and that dude was stronger than your average Eredar.

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It makes ya wonder what that Necromancer in Draenor was up to, the one who may or may not have been working with Wrathion and Kairoz.

The Lich King is not even close to KJ in power. I can't believe I am stating this again because I don't think anyone is serious about thinking of LK as being stronger than KJ other than Britishbulldog who is obviously trolling.

You know that we defeated KJ with the living manifestation of sunwell right? And that only pushed him back. The LK was not strong at all on cosmic scale. Even forsaken plague could make him retreat.

[Zulkhan]

I just call it as I see it. You are salty. You say I "argue gibberish", I didn't know quoting blue posts was "gibberish". Face it, you are butthurt over nothing.

You don't even know what salty means, which means that not only your vocabulary is thin but you don't even know the meaning of what is wrote in there. And really:

You say I "argue gibberish", I didn't know quoting blue posts was "gibberish"

Are you aware of the difference between quoting and argue in regards of what you quoted, right? Because that's exactly what you did the last time, you did all kinds of spinnings to sell your interpretation as fact. And guess what, you ended up on a dead end.

Face it, until someone at Blizzard doesn't tell us straight and clear that the Old God itself was weakened or whatever, the quote remains up to interpretation.

[Kathranis]

These threads are always full of - "KJ MADE ARTHAS SO ARTHAS CAN'T BE MORE POWERFUL LOL!!11!!"

Because no teacher has ever been outdone by their student, right? They're also completely different schools of magic. KJ didn't create undeath, he just used it.

Arthas was powerful, but let's be completely honest: he wasn't a cosmic scale villain like Kil'jaeden is.

• Arthas commanded the power to raze cities and conquer nations.
• Kil'jaeden commands the power to raze nations and conquer worlds.
• Sargeras commands the power to raze worlds and conquer the universe.

That's a fairly accurate way to look at the power scales involved.


To further flesh it out, the chart should roughly be something like this:

Sargeras > Kil'jaeden > Azshara > Deathwing > Arthas > Garrosh

• Garrosh commanded a mortal army and eventually the might of a slain Old God.
  
• Arthas was an immensely powerful necromancer and death knight who commanded an army of the undead.
  
• Deathwing was personally imbued with a remarkable amount of raw destructive power and commanded an army of cultists and Old God servants.
  
• Azshara, as a night elf, was an immensely powerful sorceress on par with the commanders of the Burning Legion. She has since been imbued with power by an Old God, stolen the power of one of the Elemental Lords, and in all likelihood spent 10,000 years bathing in the primal energies of the Well of Eternity. She commands an army of naga, murlocs, and Old God servants.
  
• Kil'Jaeden is likely the strongest living warlock in the universe, and leader of the Burning Legion in Sargeras's absence. As such he commands a nigh infinite army of immortal demons with the power to invade, conquer, corrupt, and destroy worlds. Though we haven't really seen him perform many feats of strength first hand, we have seen his peer, Archimonde, destroy an entire city using a single spell.
  
• Sargeras is a titan, capable of destroying whole worlds as a purely physical feat of strength, to say nothing of the power he wields over the Fel. He is also the true master of the Burning Legion and waged a successful war against the Pantheon.
  
• Of course, beyond Sargeras is the Void Lords, who seemingly have the potential to unmake reality. But if we kill Sargeras and Azeroth is no longer a nascent Titan (IE, "we are the Final Titan"), then we can stop these crazy cosmic level threats and have the Void Lords as something more manageable. Just invaders from beyond reality, something with a similar scale to the Legion.

Anyway, that's how I see it all. Azshara is obviously a bit of an unknown quantity, but she's been hyped up sufficiently to assume she's somewhere between Arthas and Kil'Jaeden in power level, and has probably grown far stronger over the last 10,000 years. I think she's going to play a big part in us learning the truth about Elune and Azeroth the "Final Titan," which will be the final pieces of the puzzle in this cosmic war we're supposed to be fighting agains the Void Lords. She'll be one last big "world-scale threat" before we band together and start the final war.

[Night Wind]

You don't even know what salty means, which means that not only your vocabulary is thin but you don't even know the meaning of what is wrote in there. And really:



Are you aware of the difference between quoting and argue in regards of what you quoted, right? Because that's exactly what you did the last time, you did all kinds of spinnings to sell your interpretation as fact. And guess what, you ended up on a dead end.

Face it, until someone at Blizzard doesn't tell us straight and clear that the Old God itself was weakened or whatever, the quote remains up to interpretation.

How is "Champions of the Alliance and Horde chose not to wait for the Old God to build up its strength." up to interpretation? It is literally a blue post saying the Old God itself was not at full strength.

Funny how you talk about vocabulary. Is English not your first language? Because "Champions of the Alliance and Horde chose not to wait for the Old God to build up its army." would have been the quote if that is what it was saying.

[The Professional]

It looks like Kil'jaeden has deceived a lot of you into thinking hes stronger than the Lord of the Damned.

[Tenjen]

He's so powerful that even if you took every being in the universe and added their power together, it would not match his...AFTER you count him too in that former group!

[Rathbourne]

[*]Of course, beyond Sargeras is the Void Lords, who seemingly have the potential to unmake reality. But if we kill Sargeras and Azeroth is no longer a nascent Titan (IE, "we are the Final Titan"), then we can stop these crazy cosmic level threats and have the Void Lords as something more manageable. Just invaders from beyond reality, something with a similar scale to the Legion.

/sigh. ok could you give me a direct quote for this ? I agree with a lot of what u just said but this is bullshit.I've read the Chronicles and nowhere is this said.So plz give me a quote.

[death604]

Kil'Jaeden is so overrated we were able to hold our ground against him in the sunwell plateau and the only thing backing us up that time was Kalecgos who hasn't even been promoted to an Aspect.

i know that it was just an avatar, but Kalec was only just a regular blue dragon back then as well.

lol don't even bring Azshara and LK in this topic they're not that strong. Azsuna quest line proves that Azshara isn't as strong as what we hyped her to be.

[Qualia]

Kil'Jaeden is so overrated we were able to hold our ground against him in the sunwell plateau and the only thing backing us up that time was Kalecgos who hasn't even been promoted to an Aspect.

i know that it was just an avatar, but Kalec was only just a regular blue dragon back then as well.

lol don't even bring Azshara and LK in this topic they're not that strong. Azsuna quest line proves that Azshara isn't as strong as what we hyped her to be.

That wasn't an avatar. It was real Kil'Jaeden (although he might or might not able to use his full strength since he hasn't gotten on Azeroth yet - I'm not sure about this). However, we was backed up with more than just Kalec and other blue dragons. Anveena realized that we would lose, helped us and sacrificed herself, making the Sunwell's power itself went against Kil'Jaeden. The Sunwell is a mini WoE (the same as the one at Hyjal under the world tree - which was supposedly powerful enough to make Archimonde as strong as Sargeras), it was / is powerful, even in its weakened state.

[death604]

That wasn't an avatar. It was real Kil'Jaeden (although he might or might not able to use his full strength since he hasn't gotten on Azeroth yet - I'm not sure about this). However, we was backed up with more than just Kalec and other blue dragons. Anveena realized that we would lose, helped us and sacrificed herself, making the Sunwell's power itself went against Kil'Jaeden. The Sunwell is a mini WoE (the same as the one at Hyjal under the world tree - which was supposedly powerful enough to make Archimonde as strong as Sargeras), it was / is powerful, even in its weakened state.

it was only Kalec that was there he's the only flying up above blasting KJ with arcane(IIRC there were only 2 blues the other died from the Pit Lord). Anveena's help only allowed us to push KJ out, she wasn't involve in the fighting that's the whole point of kalecgos' dialogues(to bring some sense back to Anveena).

the shields and stuffs that we get in the fight were from the orbs that Kalecgos empowers hence it's his own power that we're using to defend ourselves from KJ's attacks

basically we(adventurers + Kalec) were able to hold KJ long enough for Kalec to bring some sense back to Anveena which allowed us to push KJ out of our world.

[Papuchongo]

There is no way in hell, that Arthas and Lil`jaedan and Illidan are stronger, then Sargeras. :O LOLLLLLLLLL!! xDD

Arthas is stronger than Illidan though... when he was still turning into the Lich King thing. Sargeras is OP, only Brox is one of the only mortals to actually wound Sargeras. Also I don't know how to judge anything.

[Qualia]

it was only Kalec that was there he's the only flying up above blasting KJ with arcane(IIRC there were only 2 blues the other died from the Pit Lord). Anveena's help only allowed us to push KJ out, she wasn't involve in the fighting that's the whole point of kalecgos' dialogues(to bring some sense back to Anveena).

basically we(adventurers + Kalec) were able to hold KJ long enough for Kalec to bring some sense back to Anveena which allowed us to push KJ out of our world.

Yes, we hold on long enough for him to wake Anveena up. However, lore-wise, we weren't winning, we were losing instead. That's why Anveena had to sacrifice herself to turn the power of the Sunwell against KJ, both weakening him and pushing him back (Kalec yelled "Strike now, heroes, while he is weakened! Vanquish the Deceiver" and KJ screamed "Aggghh! The powers of the Sunwell... turn... against me! ..." when that happened). She didn't just do it to push KJ out only.

[death604]

Arthas is stronger than Illidan though... when he was still turning into the Lich King thing. Sargeras is OP, only Brox is one of the only mortals to actually wound Sargeras. Also I don't know how to judge anything.

brox was able to do a paper cut to sargeras because of the axe that was crafted by cenarius with the power of azeroth itself.

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Yes, we hold on long enough for him to wake Anveena up. However, lore-wise, we weren't winning, we were losing instead. That's why Anveena had to sacrifice herself to turn the power of the Sunwell against KJ, both weakening him and pushing him back (Kalec yelled "Strike now, heroes, while he is weakened! Vanquish the Deceiver"). She didn't just do it to push KJ out only.

it really doesn't matter if we were losing the fight because the point is Kil Jaeden was trying to kill us, and he was having trouble despite the fact our only back up that time was a pre-aspect blue dragon.

it's either kalec even before the aspect promotion is ridiculously strong that he was able to protect us from KJ's attacks, or Kil'Jaeden's not that strong to begin with.

[Traveler Voltin]

brox was able to do a paper cut to sargeras because of the axe that was crafted by cenarius with the power of azeroth itself.

no, it wasnt.
it was crafted by malfurion.
Cenarius enchanted it to be as hard and sharp as a diamond.