1. #19621
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    I do not understand what you want.
    I acknowledged that you correctly quoted law, but that that quoting itself held little significance and did not make for an argument. I criticised that you seem to misunderstand the law and it is legal force both internationaly and within Germany itself.

    I suggested that you provide suggestions for imediate but amicable solutions to the problems discussed in this thread instead of stonewalling behind questions about "fundamental priniciples" that have long been answered. I suggest looking at the practice of blocking any and all attemps to improve upon the situation under the guise that it would not be a perfect solution or sit well with everyone affected most critically. I suggest that it would be smart to provide these solutions and come to a compromise before certain terms are up and there might or might not be a drastic change in both politicians and policies that will leave a lot of people hurt.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    My MMO-C Forum theory: When someone takes the time to cut&paste and snip and edit so he can respond to each single line, he's got a) way too much time and/or is b) way too emotionally involved to make sound judgements.

    But that aside, I get a strong sense of you not understanding law, legal texts, authority of Government or how a country is run. I've had to do a lot of explaining over the years, but since you call me condescending, I'll stop paying you attention.
    What qualifies you to "explain"? Please do tell. Since you clearly stake a claim about having a superior understanding about the issues of and I quote "law, legal texts, authority of Government or how a country is run" here. And it isnt only little old me. You clearly present the same claim to superiority to other users of this forum who disargree with your opinions: What (verifiable) educational or professional qualifications do you have to make an appeal to your own authority.
    About the second part: You make arguments about the way I make fun of you, not counterarguments. Since you make no arguments I have nothing further to say.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    That sentence, right there. That's the bit that's breaking your neck in this debate. You think law is something you can twist and bend to your will. No, you can't. Merkel can't. What she, or rather the Government did, was give executive orders within the authority bestowed upon her by the people. But that doesn't mean they can just go and break the law?
    Now, if what she did was within the limits of her powers is up for debate. The threat of the CSU to bring that before a court is pretty real in the bargaining going on right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Here's the kicker: There's no law forbidding the Government from letting everyone in.
    Oh lord.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    There's a law against illegal immigration, but if the Government declares their entry legal, this law suddenly doesn't apply anymore.
    Of course it does, what do you think this is, 5th grade debate club? You do not get to apply the exception of the law as the general rule and be within the limits of interpretation. That is outside of your disgretion
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Well, fuck that... I think your entire argument just went down the shitter, how about that?
    Werent you trying to be less of an asspimple?
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    The whole point about law (specifically public law in this case), is to provide a framework within which the Government can act. In most cases, this framework is meant to protect the population against the Government. I shit you not, that's a big ass part of public law. All human rights are all about protection from Governments. Yes, that's how important it was to pioneers of modern constitutions to ensure that we don't have dictatorships, absolutism or other easily abused forms of governing people anymore. So no, it's not "law is pure theory". That's bullshit. Law is the law. It binds the Government.
    Cue dramatic music for pompous but meaningless speach.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    And supreme courts and constitutional courts all over the western world absolutely have the power to nullify whatever a bad Government does. In that one controlling function, the constitutional courts have the last word and are the ultima ratio against Government abuse.
    They have the WORD. They can rule something unconstitutional but what happens in practice? Is that law suddenly going to disappear. Does the court get to decide the specific changes to the law? No it is not. In the best case the government will acknowledge the ruling and reform the law in accordance with the courts ruling. That usually takes several years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Guess what? They didn't move a finger. But hey, there's 16 constitutional judges in Germany. All of which have forgotten more about law than you can ever hope to learn in your lifetime. Most of which are professors teaching law, some of which have helped create laws and all of which are very aware of their custodial function, with decades in the highest elite of German legal circles... I'm sure they are all wrong and you, some dude on a forum, are the only one who sees clearly.
    I highly value the BVG, but their decisions arent exaclty always unanimous. I had the pleasure of attending some lectures given by former judges of the BVG, although that was well before the whole refugee issue became a hot topic. By no means am I alone in my assessment of these issues.
    I dont mind you romanticizing these people, but thats not helping you stay objective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    No wait, I bet they're in on the conspiracy, is that it?
    Stay classy.
    Last edited by Runenwächter; 2016-08-16 at 07:06 PM.

  2. #19622
    Quote Originally Posted by Runenwächter View Post
    They have the WORD. They can rule something unconstitutional but what happens in practice? Is that law suddenly going to disappear. Does the court get to decide the specific changes to the law? No it is not. In the best case the government will acknowledge the ruling and reform the law in accordance with the courts ruling. That usually takes several years.

    I highly value the BVG, but their decisions arent exaclty always unanimous. I had the pleasure of attending some lectures given by former judges of the BVG, although that was well before the whole refugee issue became a hot topic. By no means am I alone in my assessment of these issues.
    I dont mind you romanticizing these people, but thats not helping you stay objective.

    Stay classy.
    The first bolded part is actually within the rights of the BVG, to nullify a law entirely if it isn't fixed. So yes, depending on the case, they can simply declare the law void and from one day to the next that law doesn't exist anymore.

    Which leads me to the second bolded part, I don't know what lectures you had, but clearly, they weren't on the workings of the BVG. I'm not romanticising them, I'm talking about the influence they have on courts and legislation. No, they cannot phrase laws and get them passed. But they can set up frame conditions that need to be met for a law to be constitutional. And that framework can be rather tight at times. It's not their job to flesh out that law, that's the job of legislation. But legislation is bound by the constitution, so is the Government. So how about you cut the bullshit and learn something instead of just going insane conspiracy mode?
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  3. #19623
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I never said they're infallible. But I'm saying they know their stuff much better than any of us does. And they weren't concerned at all. And corrections between courts don't necessarily mean someone made a mistake, it mostly means there's a difference in opinion. And sometimes someone has to call the shots. Alas, in this case, there was no second opinion. Still isn't.
    You mean except Hans-Jürgen Papier, former President of the BVG, or Michael Bertrams, or Udo Di Fabio?
    You know why no current acting judge of the BVG is comming forward on these issues? Because if they did they would be considered biased and thus excluded from ruling on these issues. Not that there isnt a debate going on behind closed doors.

    That is pretty basic knowlege, so I assume you, who continuosly claims to have a firm understanding of these issues, must have known too. Why then did you omit this and present your statement as fact to lead others to believe that there is in fact a pretty unanimous opinion amongst the judges on the matter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    So how about you cut the bullshit and learn something instead of just going insane conspiracy mode?
    Stop the embarassing projecting.

    I just noticed, time flies by when you argue on the internet with complete strangers. Thats all the time I have for today.
    Last edited by Runenwächter; 2016-08-16 at 07:39 PM.

  4. #19624
    Deleted


    Crude.

    But oh so true.

  5. #19625
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    And the same question to you, how exactly do you leave a country without entering another one?
    Oceans, outer space.
    Its a you problem, not a me problem.

  6. #19626
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Runenwächter View Post
    I acknowledged that you correctly quoted law, but that that quoting itself held little significance and did not make for an argument. I criticised that you seem to misunderstand the law and it is legal force both internationaly and within Germany itself.

    I suggested that you provide suggestions for imediate but amicable solutions to the problems discussed in this thread instead of stonewalling behind questions about "fundamental priniciples" that have long been answered. I suggest looking at the practice of blocking any and all attemps to improve upon the situation under the guise that it would not be a perfect solution or sit well with everyone affected most critically. I suggest that it would be smart to provide these solutions and come to a compromise before certain terms are up and there might or might not be a drastic change in both politicians and policies that will leave a lot of people hurt.
    I don't misunderstand anything. The law is in fact pretty clear.
    The solution is to not panic and come up with a system that manages the high influx of migrants that will eventually start again.
    That means a number of infrastructures and services well planned, well funded and well organised and not "a remote island", serious controls, a "sister" project in border countries (that requires a decade or so in order to bring stability back) and in general a bit of vision, for once.

  7. #19627
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    I don't misunderstand anything. The law is in fact pretty clear.
    The solution is to not panic and come up with a system that manages the high influx of migrants that will eventually start again.
    That means a number of infrastructures and services well planned, well funded and well organised and not "a remote island", serious controls, a "sister" project in border countries (that requires a decade or so in order to bring stability back) and in general a bit of vision, for once.
    The only system that can work is a night watcher state - Everything else will bankrupt the state.

  8. #19628
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    The only system that can work is a night watcher state - Everything else will bankrupt the state.
    I don't know what that is. I only know a horrible movie called night watcher.

  9. #19629
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    I don't know what that is. I only know a horrible movie called night watcher.
    A nigth watcher state is a state that does nothing but Army, Judiciary, and police.
    Only the hard core state functions.
    No welfare, no safety nets, nothing.
    Public education is sometimes included.

  10. #19630
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    I don't know what that is. I only know a horrible movie called night watcher.
    The world doesn't revolve about your knowledge - or lack thereof. The "Nachtwächterstaat" or "Night-watchman state" as a minimalistic state has been an idea for quite some time. Whether it will work is another question. I thought some tried the even more minimal state a few years ago, and proved that a state without a military at least wasn't a good idea.

    And considering that IMDB lists two "Night watcher" movies that went straight to video, one unrated and one with a score of 2.8, I can only wonder what kind of movies you watch.

  11. #19631
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    A nigth watcher state is a state that does nothing but Army, Judiciary, and police.
    Only the hard core state functions.
    No welfare, no safety nets, nothing.
    Public education is sometimes included.
    And.... that is going to help us?
    ??

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    The world doesn't revolve about your knowledge - or lack thereof. The "Nachtwächterstaat" or "Night-watchman state" as a minimalistic state has been an idea for quite some time. Whether it will work is another question. I thought some tried the even more minimal state a few years ago, and proved that a state without a military at least wasn't a good idea.

    And considering that IMDB lists two "Night watcher" movies that went straight to video, one unrated and one with a score of 2.8, I can only wonder what kind of movies you watch.
    There there... no one cares about your vitriol. Keep your shitposting for yourself.

  12. #19632
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    And.... that is going to help us?
    ??
    Well yes, it will reduce the numbers coming, it will reduce the costs - It also the only state system that can sustain unrestricted immigration.
    Last edited by mmocfd561176b9; 2016-08-17 at 12:10 AM.

  13. #19633
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    Well yes, it will reduce the numbers coming, it will reduce the costs - It also the only political system that can sustain unrestricted immigration.
    It means... reversing hundreds of years of social advancements.... for what? Your irrational fears?

  14. #19634
    Quote Originally Posted by Runenwächter View Post
    You mean except Hans-Jürgen Papier, former President of the BVG, or Michael Bertrams, or Udo Di Fabio?
    You know why no current acting judge of the BVG is comming forward on these issues? Because if they did they would be considered biased and thus excluded from ruling on these issues. Not that there isnt a debate going on behind closed doors.

    That is pretty basic knowlege, so I assume you, who continuosly claims to have a firm understanding of these issues, must have known too. Why then did you omit this and present your statement as fact to lead others to believe that there is in fact a pretty unanimous opinion amongst the judges on the matter?
    Private opinion doesn't equal professional opinion. Is there a debate going on? Sure. I know attorneys that think the situation is totally fucked up. Those cases where they ripped passports apart to get into Germany without identification? They happened by the thousands. I know first hand how pissed attorneys are at that. But what can they do? They dismissed all of those cases as insignificant, partly because of the sheer amount of those things happening and partly because it doesn't make sense to pursue every single case. And there was no Government directive involved at all. That was a pure judicial decision, because they cannot be flooded with bullshit like that in a situation that was outside any scale our judicial system is able to cope with.

    Oh, I know judges and attorneys are pissed. They've told me outright. But unlike you, they are professionals and still act within the boundaries of the law, because they know the law isn't just "theory" as you put it, it's the framework for our society. That's why the private opinion of constitutional judges doesn't concern me at all. They have as much a right to their opinion as you and I do. It's when they leave their professional role and stop being custodians of the constitutions that we're getting a problem. So far, not a soul has objected to a point where action was deemed necessary. So what makes you think you're qualified to make these grand statements about basically everything public in Germany, the judicial system, the Government and dismiss law as "pure theory"? Are you one of those anarchists that are simply against everything but have no alternative plan in place? Or even knowledge of what they're against?
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  15. #19635
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    There there... no one cares about your vitriol. Keep your shitposting for yourself.
    Whereas your lack of knowledge of Night watchman state was important, and everyone should know about it?
    Your bad review of the movie "Night watcher" important? (Assuming that was the actual title of the horrible movie you saw - I doubt it.)

    My "shitpost" contained a number of relevant points: (That some even more minimalistic state was tried and failed, AFAIK)
    The most important one is that it is called "Night-watchman state" in English not "Night watcher state" - I assume that @GoblinP mistranslated, or was confused by Game of Thrones. Mistranslations are normal, but cause problems: if you want to search for more information - use the term "Night-watchman state".

    The goal of combining night-watchman state with free migration is actually an idea favored by some mainstream political party in Europe. Others find both horrible.

  16. #19636
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Whereas your lack of knowledge of Night watchman state was important, and everyone should know about it?
    Your bad review of the movie "Night watcher" important? (Assuming that was the actual title of the horrible movie you saw - I doubt it.)

    My "shitpost" contained a number of relevant points: (That some even more minimalistic state was tried and failed, AFAIK)
    The most important one is that it is called "Night-watchman state" in English not "Night watcher state" - I assume that @GoblinP mistranslated, or was confused by Game of Thrones. Mistranslations are normal, but cause problems: if you want to search for more information - use the term "Night-watchman state".

    The goal of combining night-watchman state with free migration is actually an idea favored by some mainstream political party in Europe. Others find both horrible.
    You do realize that this mistranslation could´ve caused the problem of djalil not understanding what goblinp was talking about? Apparently that wasn´t your initial thought. You rather jumped his throat for asking, because that´s totally reasonable. You´d rather question his movie taste (seriously) despite him saying that movie was horrible.

    As for your relevant points, you could´ve at least provided a link to a tried and failed state, the part about that it´s actually called night-watchman state is somewhat relevant, not really since goblinp explained it in a post prior to your babble.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  17. #19637
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    You do realize that this mistranslation could´ve caused the problem of djalil not understanding what goblinp was talking about? Apparently that wasn´t your initial thought. You rather jumped his throat for asking, because that´s totally reasonable. You´d rather question his movie taste (seriously) despite him saying that movie was horrible.

    As for your relevant points, you could´ve at least provided a link to a tried and failed state, the part about that it´s actually called night-watchman state is somewhat relevant, not really since goblinp explained it in a post prior to your babble.
    Oh don't worry. Forogil is another one of those, like the ones in my signature, so seriously, don't mind him.

  18. #19638
    The more I read about the migrant crisis, the less I see it as a crisis and the more I see it as a good opportunity for Europe to become less homogeneous.

    The negative effects of having open borders are mostly moot in my opinion and I think Europe benefiting from this crisis in the end (as long as they don't spend too much money on it) will potentially allow countries which need immigrants but are too stubborn to let them in (China, Korea, Australia, Japan) reconsider their positions on the issue.

  19. #19639
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    The more I read about the migrant crisis, the less I see it as a crisis and the more I see it as a good opportunity for Europe to become less homogeneous.

    The negative effects of having open borders are mostly moot in my opinion and I think Europe benefiting from this crisis in the end (as long as they don't spend too much money on it) will potentially allow countries which need immigrants but are too stubborn to let them in (China, Korea, Australia, Japan) reconsider their positions on the issue.
    Well... hold on a sec. This is a crisis by all means. If we had a controlled, manageable influx, it would have been different.

  20. #19640
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    The more I read about the migrant crisis, the less I see it as a crisis and the more I see it as a good opportunity for Europe to become less homogeneous.

    The negative effects of having open borders are mostly moot in my opinion and I think Europe benefiting from this crisis in the end (as long as they don't spend too much money on it) will potentially allow countries which need immigrants but are too stubborn to let them in (China, Korea, Australia, Japan) reconsider their positions on the issue.
    What "benefits" are you actually talking about?
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    When an orc eats an orc, two orcs rip out of the orcs stomach, they eat each other and a brand new orc walks through the door, and then his chest explodes and 20 full grown orcs crawl out of his body. They then eat each other and the bodies until there are 3 orcs left. The mystery of the orc reproduction cycle.

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