Kayn or Altruis

[PainREIGN]

Kayn I mean my hell we are the Illidari not the backstabbers like Altruis and Akama. Illidan taught us how to take our vengeance on the legion and gave us the tools to accomplish our goals. And then you want me to betray him and turn to the turncoats for advice... no thanks.

[UrosM]

Kayn I mean my hell we are the Illidari not the backstabbers like Altruis and Akama. Illidan taught us how to take our vengeance on the legion and gave us the tools to accomplish our goals. And then you want me to betray him and turn to the turncoats for advice... no thanks.

then why would there be a choice in the first place? This is not a coincidence, it is obvious when you look it from a real angle. As I said Kayn is a reference to biblical Cain.

If Blizzard makes Illidan into a good guy (which he is not, and it is not a coincidence that people interpret the new book as making him a good guy) than I say that is not good at all. Yes Illidan taught us as you say, he did taught some good things, now it is time to implement the good things and change the bad ones, Illidan is one leader, I am very sure there are other capable of performing with same power and wits, yet not giving it into the Legion.

Plain and simple, Sargeras was a titan, he was a titan of immense power, the most powerful. He fought against the Legion (with means unimaginable, and more powerful than Illidan's for sure) and in the end he is the supreme leader of the Legion... and it's servant as a whole... One should always think twice and look from another angle, that is what Altruis does, and that is very logical and wise.

[Adoxe]

Altruis is a traitor. His actions in Outland led to the deaths of 3 powerful Demon Hunters, one of which ended up working for Kil'jaeden instead of dying. If they were with us on Mardum or even stayed back on the Black Temple to defend it, maybe we wouldn't have been dealing with the Legion right now. If you're maining a Demon Hunter and care about the lore but you chose Altruis - you're no Demon Hunter.

[Deleted]

kayn of course

[Black Sand]

If you're maining a Demon Hunter and care about the lore but you chose Altruis - you're no Demon Hunter.

Of course...

[Deleted]

Altruis, but that's because I want a second who won't hesitate to question my actions. It helps that I understand Altruis's motives from doing his questline back in BC; he's one of the old-guard demon hunters who still have one foot in night elf culture and remember the War of the Ancients. Kayn, on the other hand, seems unrelentingly power-hungry and poised to push the Illidari over the brink they were balancing on (badly) back in BC. If the Illidari start approaching that ledge again, I want a second who can recognize it so we can pull back before hitting the point of no return. It's one thing to gaze into the abyss, it's another to swan-dive in.

I have the exact same approach and this is also why I have choosen Altruis. Illidan and Kayn are only driven by power (read the books and you will see how often Illidan sacrifices others to increase his own power). This lust for power had split the Draenai people in two kind : the today Draenai people and the Eredar legion.

[DemoBytom]

Imagine if arthas on his northrend campaign had altruis with him, altruis would probably have tried to point out to arthas that he was going too far.
now imagine the same situation with kayn, he would tell arthas to take frostmourn.

Arthas had Muradin, who flat out told him to not touch Frostmourne as well as question what he was doing prior to that - burning the ships so his men wouldn't return to Lordaeron, betraying mercenaries that fought for him etc..


As for choosing between Kayn or Altruis - I choose Kayn because I feel like the entire DH starting experience did very poor job explaining why you would choose otherwise. Kayn is with you from the beginning. He never does anything that you really should doubt, or feel bad about. Altruis shows up late and we never learn anything valuable about him, except that he betrayed Illidari. Even the magic pool that is supposed to remind you what you're fighting for - shows how cool Illidan is, and how stupid it'd be to betray him.. The entire game just tells you to choose Kayn, iMHO :?


Now, had I knew about Akama prio to making my choice, I'd chosen otherwise :P

[UrosM]

Altruis is a traitor. His actions in Outland led to the deaths of 3 powerful Demon Hunters, one of which ended up working for Kil'jaeden instead of dying. If they were with us on Mardum or even stayed back on the Black Temple to defend it, maybe we wouldn't have been dealing with the Legion right now. If you're maining a Demon Hunter and care about the lore but you chose Altruis - you're no Demon Hunter.

Altruis is not a traitor but someone who saw the bigger picture...

And it is nto a coincidence that the DH Altruis plotted to kill ended up being a demon to serve KJ... because he was already more of a demon than a hunter, with all the power lust, afterall Varedis stole the book from the Shadow Council and kept it to him which gave him demonic knowledge...
It is pointless to say that we wouldn't be dealing with the Legion if they were on Mardum, because Mardum was only an uterly small portion of Legion's forces, they were scattered since it was dealt with the Sargeras. And Mardum went fine without them, so it is just a small detail that doesn't have to do with anything. Black Temple would fall either way, just because Blizzard is inventing new lore doesn't mean that all the people who chose a whiny blind follower like Kayn is should justify their wrong decision...

Also, just because Blizzard makes you that much easily swap the wrong ethics, or even missing ethics, and blindly chose, doesn't mean we need to justify your decisions...

[Spl4sh3r]

I am a Night Elf therefore Alliance went with Altruis who is also a Night Elf.

[Beelzabi]

Altruis is not a traitor but someone who saw the bigger picture...

And it is nto a coincidence that the DH Altruis plotted to kill ended up being a demon to serve KJ... because he was already more of a demon than a hunter, with all the power lust, afterall Varedis stole the book from the Shadow Council and kept it to him which gave him demonic knowledge...

Well, when you choose to sacrifice yourself or Sevis, no matter what you choose, both come back to life. That means we are corrupted too. So Atruis will betray us anyway.

Maybe Altruis is corrupted too, but is another generic hypocrite character that blizzard loves.

[TheWindWalker]

They didn't properly repressent Altruis as a viable option for a reasonable, intelligent person to choose. Kayn said "We will sacrifice ourselves and suffer anything to save everyone" and Altruis said "I think Illidan seemed to be turning bad and I had a few of his kind killed because I was worried they were also going to turn bad." and that was the moral choice for "how should we defeat The Burning Legion?"

Altruis, even if he was right, was basically slashing the tires of the jeep delivering troops while Kayn was willing to drive ahead of the convey and taking bullets to ensure a safe route.

[UrosM]

Well, when you choose to sacrifice yourself or Sevis, no matter what you choose, both come back to life. That means we are corrupted too. So Atruis will betray us anyway.

Maybe Altruis is corrupted too, but is another generic hypocrite character that blizzard loves.

not all of the DH's turn to demons when they die, Varedis did. And Blizzard doesn't 'love' or 'hate' Altruis lol, it is just a given choice.

- - - Updated - - -

They didn't properly repressent Altruis as a viable option for a reasonable, intelligent person to choose. Kayn said "We will sacrifice ourselves and suffer anything to save everyone" and Altruis said "I think Illidan seemed to be turning bad and I had a few of his kind killed because I was worried they were also going to turn bad." and that was the moral choice for "how should we defeat The Burning Legion?"

Altruis, even if he was right, was basically slashing the tires of the jeep delivering troops while Kayn was willing to drive ahead of the convey and taking bullets to ensure a safe route.

Altruis was more like, tweaking the gas pedal, which got broken and was speeding the vehicle towards an end of the cliff...

[Beelzabi]

not all of the DH's turn to demons when they die, Varedis did. And Blizzard doesn't 'love' or 'hate' Altruis lol, it is just a given choice.

[COLOR="#417394"]

I'm not saying all DH are corrupted, I'm saying that we, the player DH, are the same as Varedis, we came back from the death. The only difference is the time we spend in the nether, AND that Varedis was tortured by Kil'jaeden himself. You could say whatever your want because of "morality", "honor", etc., but in time, everyone will sucumb to a torture. So Varedis joining BL is totally Altruis fault.

And I'm not saying Blizz love or hate Altruis, I'm saying Blizzard love the hypocrite characters, just as Altruis, Thrall, Jaina, etc.

[GrieverXIII]

Altruis all the way. Might choose Kayn if i make an alt Belf DH just to see if it changes anything but i much prefer Altruis as a character as i can't stand people who blindly follow orders without ever questioning anything (basically Kayn).

[Orloth]

I wonder.... Is there an A canon choice? Has anyone checked who is down in Azshara on non-DH characters? Is it faction based? Is it random? I know my Belf Warlock met Kayn down there.

Not really relevant to the discussion, but could be good to know.

[UrosM]

I'm not saying all DH are corrupted, I'm saying that we, the player DH, are the same as Varedis, we came back from the death. The only difference is the time we spend in the nether, AND that Varedis was tortured by Kil'jaeden himself. You could say whatever your want because of "morality", "honor", etc., but in time, everyone will sucumb to a torture. So Varedis joining BL is totally Altruis fault.

And I'm not saying Blizz love or hate Altruis, I'm saying Blizzard love the hypocrite characters, just as Altruis, Thrall, Jaina, etc.

Idk where you dig this incorrect information. Not all the DH are corrupted, but WE are, what kind of deduction that is? So we are the same as Varedis, but some 'other DHs' are not the same and not corrupted haha Varedis was in the point of interest of Kil'Jaden because he was power lusting and he knew he can use that to turn him into a demon... and hell it was not Altruis's fault that Kil'Jaden decided to do it, he would have done it other way around... and about those 'hypocrite characters' you write, you really need to re-read lore (if you did read it at all). I think you got no clue about what you talk...

Also anyone who says Illidan was a good guy boo hoo, we didn't understand that few months ago before they brought a new book to feed us with updated lore :_( is actually someone who didn't know the original lore. One guy on youtube explains it well, watch a video called: "10 Facts About Illidan Stormrage, The Betrayer - World of Warcraft", and you will be more clear about who Illidan is, and how easy is to pretend that all he did, he did with a 'plan to oppose Legion', but actually was running around like a rabid dog, being issued with orders from Kil'Jaden...

[Beelzabi]

Idk where you dig this incorrect information. Not all the DH are corrupted, but WE are, what kind of deduction that is? So we are the same as Varedis, but some 'other DHs' are not the same and not corrupted haha Varedis was in the point of interest of Kil'Jaden because he was power lusting and he knew he can use that to turn him into a demon... and hell it was not Altruis's fault that Kil'Jaden decided to do it, he would have done it other way around... and about those 'hypocrite characters' you write, you really need to re-read lore (if you did read it at all). I think you got no clue about what you talk...

Also anyone who says Illidan was a good guy boo hoo, we didn't understand that few months ago before they brought a new book to feed us with updated lore :_( is actually someone who didn't know the original lore. One guy on youtube explains it well, watch a video called: "10 Facts About Illidan Stormrage, The Betrayer - World of Warcraft", and you will be more clear about who Illidan is, and how easy is to pretend that all he did, he did with a 'plan to oppose Legion', but actually was running around like a rabid dog, being issued with orders from Kil'Jaden...

I don't know if all Demon Hunters are corrupted because there isn't something that can prove that. I'm saying we, the players are the same as Varedis because:

If we choose to sacrifice ourselves instead of Sevis, Illidan says the next:

Lord Illidan Stormrage says: Interesting. Like me, you have an immortal demon soul.
Lord Illidan Stormrage says: You cannot truly die. Instead, your soul will make its way to the Twisting Nether. There, you will wait until you can find a suitable body to inhabit.
Lord Illidan Stormrage says: Now get back into your corpse while there is still time and bring me the keystone!

IDK, but that pretty much confirms we already have demon souls. So, we are the same as Varedis. IDK if Kil'jaeden could have corrupted Varedis by diferent ways, but we know he lost to the torture, the psychological torture:

The Deceiver played upon his shock from the battle at the Black Temple. Champions had been prepared to face Varedis and known to use the Book of Fel Names, so who had told them of that power? Varedis knew it would not have been the Burning Legion or the Shadow Council, as they would have preferred the book to remain intact. Kil'jaeden convinced Varedis that it could only have been the Illidari, who knew of his power and betrayed him.

And who did this? Altruis, of course.

And about the hypocrite characters, here are some examples:

Garrosh Hellscream: He kills Overlord Krom'gar for his methods on Stonetalon, yet he uses the same methods on Theramore (because of bad writing).

Thrall: Everything that happens 'til Legion it's his fault, because he made Garrosh Warchief, even when everyone told him it was a bad idea, hell, even Garrosh told him not to make him Warchief. Yet, he blames Garrosh for everything and he cleans his hands (and cheats).

Jaina Proudmoore: She claims that Horde are traitors because they threw the mana bomb on Theramore, a "neutral nation". Yet she helps the Alliance troops on the Barrens, and even aids them with troops from Theramore. And that, my friend, is not how neutrality works.

And from the dictionary:

Hypocrisy: Is the failure to follow one’s own expressed moral rules and principles.


And I never said Illidan was good. Since WIII we know he's hungry for power, and his title is well explained in the video you recommended. His motives during Outland was to form an army to stand against the Legion, but not because of saving the world or something, but because he knew he failed Kil'jaeden and he knew he had to defense himself. Thanks to the book, some changes are made, but that doesn't differs from before, only his motives (and the war against Shattrath).

I'm not claiming he's good, or some shit like that, I was even against to have him again, and worse, making him the "child of light" (Srsly, X'era? WTF?), but is what we have.

[Nilin]

I've been trying to decide whether I'm happy with my choice for the past while. I don't like the Kayn/Shade combination, Kayn on his own is fine. At the same time I feel like Altruis/Akama is just stacking class order members who have betrayed illidan.

Ultimately I'd have rather had the choice at both times between the illidari and the akamas. But I picked Kayn because they made him sound far more noble. He was all for cooperation and honor, and I guess having a willing shade is as good if not better than a hesitant, temporary Akama. I feel as though Akama only ever wanted his shade back for the power to stop illidan, not to have a corrupt, mind-bent version of himself back. I'd really like to know what becomes of Akama going forward based on this. If he is ever seen again, there would have to be some kind of conclusion to his arc that both choices bring, so I'd hope it isn't negative.

[Deleted]

I went for Kayn after discovering what Altruis made the player characters do in TBC. He gives quests to kill 4 demon hunters at the black temple, one of which was to be a very strong asset against the legion. Not only did his betrayal lead to the death of four of our brothers/sisters, it ultimately also doomed them to serving the legion - all four of them are present in Legion. Altruis 'misguided' "I thought I was doing the right thing" costed us to much.

As for Akama, after reading Illadin I now have no sympathy for him. Kayn's approach only seems a fair reward for Akama's betrayel.

[Nilin]

As for Akama, after reading Illadin I now have no sympathy for him. Kayn's approach only seems a fair reward for Akama's betrayel.

I felt that in illidan he was kinda pitiful, also having his soul ripped out of him. He was tricked into helping illidan reclaim his temple only to have it used for darker evils. He seemed pretty sympathetic. But yeah, Altruis is just a huge, anti illidan traitor for people who want to play demon hunters but also hate illidan.