Why do Jaina and Genn get so much shit?

[Deleted]

beware alliance justice bois are here sry for all that are hating sylvanas but she is right for attacking gilneas not because she want someone to die for fun because Gilneas are cowards 2nd and 3th war they just closed the doors and chilled their life and let the peopel around them dying on the scourge and you think these peopel as living dead forget this ? And for Jaina sry bois but she let the alliance troops cooparote from theramoore and Garrosh has warned her dont do it or your neutrality is lost but hey she as a peace hippi girl let the army come there and killing taurajo civilians for no reasion.

So yes i dont like Jain and Genn and i never liked Garrosh stupid Chars acting like SPOILED BRATS whining about past where its their own fault. And thats why they are treated like this they deserved it.

Really? Genn did that? I guess you're right, it comes totally in contrast with what Sylvannas and the high elves did, how willing they were to help Lordaeron in the second war when... a renegade general broke ranks to help them and in the third war when they fully ignored the issues Lordaeron was having with the undead (and Strathholme is right at their doorstep by the way) until it came to bite them in the ass. Oh, wait... so they did the same.

Also, Garrosh didn't warn anyone. His only warning was "Die!".

Even Khadgar wants her out of the Kirin Tor.

Actually he says he'd have hoped she didn't leave. So no.

Let me see...Tyrande and Malfurion aren't super anti-Horde

Tyrande and Malfurion (and Velen) are over 10k years old. Comparing them to Jaina is like comparing your grandparents with a newborn. And yet, while Tyrande does work with the Horde, she hates them. In War Crimes she tried to make it look like every single member of the Horde is guilty for Garrosh. It didn't go her way, but she did try.

I understand characters need flaws but her flaw is being overused to define her, in my opinion. In Warcrimes she becomes more level-headed again, acknowledging that not all the Horde was corrupt and evil. Now, all of a sudden, she wants to go back to being a warmonger.

Now, I agree with this. The problem is not that she became a warmonger, but rather that the writers are inconsistent. One moment she's a warmonger, the next she is willing to forgive and work together, then a warmonger again for no reason. Heck, if She'd have started to forgive them and the Horde bombed Dalaran, I'd say "ok, she has all the right to be a warmonger again" but literally nothing happened after Garrosh was trialed yet in WoD she's super hateful to the Horde player, in Legion she doesn't even think of why the Horde retreated etc.

Horde vs Alliance threads are legit a total copy of "Europe immigration thread". Horde being scumbags when invited to stay as long as they dont do stupid crap, alliance letting them live in their world. Horde still does stupid crap constantly antagonizing local alliance residents.

It finally snaps for a few, they scream to the leaders for help, no response.
Genn and Jaina are the only politicians willing to question if the horde should even be allowed around when all they do is fucking crime
Alliance could have ended them, but believed that the overwhelming majority of "good horde refugees" are gonna outweigh the "few bad apples"
Jaina and Genn continuesly see "bad apples" everywhere
"If bad apples werent around, none of this would have happend" - And its true
People are super mad that Jaina and Genn could even suggest that the horde should gtfo. Fukkin racist amirite?
Horde commits more bullshit
Noone does fuck all, cus apologist scum keeps defending the behavior of criminals and weak under-leaders of the horde.
Guess we're all horde now.

Did i interpret it correctly?

If not, it sounds very much alike.
Pick your sides. Both sides are right, but also wrong. Its almost like there's more to the story than right and wrong, and it might even give food for thought. Good writing?

Yes, you mostly interpreted correctly. The issue is however that they keep changing Jaina back and forth, like she's pro-Horde, anti-Horde, suspicious of Horde, pro-Horde again, anti-Horde etc. In my opinion, they should have chosen another character to hate the Horde. Funny enough, Tyrande would have really fit that bill. She has reason to hate the Horde as well and the night elves have been under constant attack even under Thrall's leadership from the Warsong.
And night elves would especially be willing to put the greater evil on the side after they did not during the Cataclysm, had many of their forces go to Hyjal only to get backstabbed by Garrosh in Ashenvale.

[Spunt]

A justified attack would have been an actual military attack, not sneaking in a dirty bomb.

"All is fair in love and war"

[Deleted]

Genn is a hypocrite because he never cared about the Alliance in the first place, left the moment he could and left thousands dying at his walls. Calling the Horde betrayers is a bit "pot calling the kettle". But it's in his character, don't "hate" him for that.

Now Jaina is just a flip-flopping mess. She calmed down during Warcrimes, then refused to work with the Horde during WoD, even when Khadgar shown it was a good partnership. And then she flops again after Broken Shore. The only way to salvage her character now is making her a dreadlord, at least it explains the constant "Kill all the Horde".

[GennGreymane]

The Alliance has just as much characters going rogue or being controlled.

- - - Updated - - -


It's true.
Which is why we don't have a meme going that Genn is a Dreadlord.
And why we don't have a dozen threads on him or long discussions.

The hate against Jaina is not for wanting to destroy the enemy.

Yeah, but there is no excuse for them, but the Horde? Oh its always an excuse!

[Hitei]

Genn is a hypocrite because he never cared about the Alliance in the first place, left the moment he could and left thousands dying at his walls. Calling the Horde betrayers is a bit "pot calling the kettle". But it's in his character, don't "hate" him for that.

Now Jaina is just a flip-flopping mess. She calmed down during Warcrimes, then refused to work with the Horde during WoD, even when Khadgar shown it was a good partnership. And then she flops again after Broken Shore. The only way to salvage her character now is making her a dreadlord, at least it explains the constant "Kill all the Horde".

Yeah, or, you know, it could be all the times the Horde has screwed over or attacked the Alliance.

[Gamevizier]

Idiots who call genn a warmonger have shit understanding of what happened during the Gilneas quest chain.

Sylvanas killed Genn's son right infront of him, with an arrow intended for Genn himself. She then literally taunts Genn Greymane and escapes Gilneas. I don't know how you people expect a father to forgive something like that, especially if that person is the king of a nation. During the medieval/victorian era such actions were enough reasons to go to war with a nation.

Even worse, its not just his son, but his whole kingdom that is ruined, Gilneas is now ravaged by the forsaken plague, so Genn has every reason to NOT TRUST the murderer of his son, and the very person who authorized the use of plague on Gilneas. You can bitch and moan about Garrosh being the mastermind, but even Garrosh explicitly forbid Sylvanas from using the plague, and she did it anyway.

Jaina too has enough reasons to not trust the Horde. She, unlike Genn, is even more moderate because she's not calling for war with the horde, but strongly opposes any co-operation with them due to theur unpredictability and unreliability. Which is also strengthened by the destruction of Theramore by Horde, note that even though Horde races did not approve of this action, they still stood behind Garrosh and it wasn't until Garrosh' mistreatment of Blood Elves and the attempted assassination of Vol'Jin that they decided to get rid of him.

So, Genn and Jaina, while being anti-horde, get my vote. Alliance cant all be peace loving hippies. So fk off with your wet dreams about having these characters turn into villains.

[Deleted]

Best analogy i have for the Jaina's hatred would be like being angry at Germany now for what they did during WWII. Hitler was in control, as Garrosh was in control over the horde at the time.

See how the writing for this makes no sense?

After world war 2 the german empire was dismantled and germany itself was separated into 2 halves governed under the supervision of the Allies one side and Russia the other. It took many decades for germany to obtain full autonomy again.

Now, lets compare with what happened to the horde post Garrosh. Oh thats right! Jaina wanted to do the same thing the Allies did to germany and ensured peace in europe till this day. Yes, hateful warmonger Jaina. /rolleyes
She was the most reasonable of them. Varian was a fool. It's not like Jaina went: lets slaughter them! Thats what a warmonger would do. Jaina is not a warmonger, she just grew to understand that the horde will never change. The horde behaved under Thrall... but under other warchiefs it's a clusterf.

[Halyon]

They lost their home because a second time from within the political organization of the sunreavers, they have delivered a weapon of mass destruction to a lunatic. Garrosh getting both the mana bomb and the divine bell was because of garrosh loyalists within the sunreavers. Of course this is after Aethas refuses to leave knowing full well he withheld what he knew about the theft of the divine bell, they were imprisoned, and those who fought were killed.

Aethas didn't know though... He was planned to know something, but it wasn't implemented. And we all ganged up on the Garrosh loyalists...

[Deleted]

Yeah, or, you know, it could be all the times the Horde has screwed over or attacked the Alliance.

Did you read what I wrote? She is completely inconsistant as a character, flip-flopping again and again.

Genn and Rogers are way more interesting then this shadow of a character called "Jaina".

[Deleted]

Really? Genn did that? I guess you're right, it comes totally in contrast with what Sylvannas and the high elves did, how willing they were to help Lordaeron in the second war when... a renegade general broke ranks to help them and in the third war when they fully ignored the issues Lordaeron was having with the undead (and Strathholme is right at their doorstep by the way) until it came to bite them in the ass. Oh, wait... so they did the same.

Except Sylvanas was a main supporter of Quel'thalas in the Alliance, including defending Nathanos as a Farstrider against the orders of Kael'thas. She was even the first line of defense against the Scourge.

Genn was the monarch giving orders, Sylvanas was the general recieving the orders.

[Halyon]

Did you read what I wrote? She is completely inconsistant as a character, flip-flopping again and again.

Genn and Rogers are way more interesting then this shadow of a character called "Jaina".

And just now the quest chain for the pillars have been started, she was like "oh well if you want the horde back in Kirin Tor, I fuckin' quit bitches". And Kirin Tor are supposed to be neutral. And the Legion is a pretty solid reason to put aside differences and work together...

[Deleted]

And just now the quest chain for the pillars have been started, she was like "oh well if you want the horde back in Kirin Tor, I fuckin' quit bitches". And Kirin Tor are supposed to be neutral. And the Legion is a pretty solid reason to put aside differences and work together...

At least Runeweaver understands how the Council of Six works, even by voting "Nay".

[Hitei]

Did you read what I wrote? She is completely inconsistant as a character, flip-flopping again and again.

She really isn't though. People go through ups and downs, there have been periods where she has been indebted to the Horde or been more moderate about them, and periods immediately after they've caused deaths where she is furious at them. Pretty typical for a normal person.

[Deleted]

She really isn't though. People go through ups and downs, there have been periods where she has been indebted to the Horde or been more moderate about them, and periods immediately after they've caused deaths where she is furious at them. Pretty typical for a normal person.

Again, she calmed down after War Crimes, she understood the cause of the Horde. Ups and downs isn't going extreme rekt after a misunderstanding that she didn't even cared to know more about.

It's flip-flopping writing.

[Deathquoi]

"All is fair in love and war"

That's not actually true even though it's an often repeated quote.

[Draeth]

Jaina Sins:
- Basically forgets everything she had learned in the third war after Theramore was destroyed, despite completely ignoring most of the Horde war around her until it came to her doorstep.
- Basically commited Stratholme 2.0 against the Bloodelves within Dalaran in revenge after she -tried- to return to peace and Garrosh messed people around in Dalaran.
- Attempted to make Varian -dismantle- the horde.
- Cannot trust the Horde, and will not work with them under any circumstance.

Jaina was the only Alliance leader who attempted to broker peace with the Horde, and was betrayed repeatedly for it and ultimately nearly killed by the Horde with a weapon stolen from a neutral ally of both the Alliance and the Horde, that destroyed her city, slaughtered her people, killed all of her friends, and the former Leader of the Kirin Tor.

Calling Dalaran Stratholme 2.0 is ridiculous. She imprisoned traitorous wizards, she didn't slaughter sick peasants. Holy false equivalency, Batman. Dalaran was an Alliance city for its entire several-thousand year existence until the aftermath of the Third War, when the Blood Elves defected to the Horde. It was gracious of the Kirin Tor to allow them to remain in the city and open it to the Horde despite that betrayal. After the Horde abused its access to the city to directly attack the Alliance, it would be absurd to expect her to allow them to continue to remain there.

A unity with a clear leader which was Varian Wrynn and now, Anduin Wrynn.



I'm sure he has more power than that. Like c'mon. He can order Jaina to let Horde into Dalaran, but can't stop Genn from starting war himself?

High King is a military position, not a dictatorship. Blizzard has stated several times that the Alliance races have sovereign kingdoms and the High King cannot give them orders.

The Horde being allowed into Dalaran has fuck all of anything to do with Anduinn. The Council of Six votes to allow it, and Jaina steps down as Leader of the Kirin Tor as a result.

And just now the quest chain for the pillars have been started, she was like "oh well if you want the horde back in Kirin Tor, I fuckin' quit bitches". And Kirin Tor are supposed to be neutral. And the Legion is a pretty solid reason to put aside differences and work together...

Imagine that, she didn't want to let the Horde, who just betrayed them again and left them to the slaughter on the Broken Shore from her POV (remember, the Alliance has no idea what happened on that cliff, all they saw is the Horde ditch them) leading to the death of her friend and king, back into the city under her rule.

Also, the Kirin Tor was an Alliance faction, not a neutral one. Its "neutrality" was a gameplay convenience for Wrath of the Lich King's shitty use of Dalaran as a plot device.

[Kallisto]

She really isn't though. People go through ups and downs, there have been periods where she has been indebted to the Horde or been more moderate about them, and periods immediately after they've caused deaths where she is furious at them. Pretty typical for a normal person.

No people have this thing called a brain where they can bring to themselves rational thought even through the most intense of moments. As a leader she needs to do that. Not have any emotions. She's the type of person who hits at someone then screams bloody murder when hit back. Theramore attacked Durotar, Crossroads and other ares long before the mana bomb incident and even before Garrosh marched into Ashenvale.

She can call for peace all she likes but if she wants peace with the horde she should have told Varian "Take all your troops and get out of Kalimdor. Or sail around Kalimdor to Darkshore.", not attack the horde and put out diplomats to the horde via neutral parties (Kirin Tor or Argents). Hell the woman herself pretty much states "To be neutral help in the war against the horde." The woman does not understand that neutrality = sitting on your ass and helping neither side.

[Deleted]

We don't blame the Alliance for what the Twilight Father did.

Hell, don't know why Stormwind hasn't burned down the Cathedral yet, the place is full of Old God followers, as we learn more in Legion.

[Deleted]

Jaina committed treason. Deal with it.

Ok, I want to deal with this point since I see it again and again.

Jaina was the leader of the Kirin Tor. Let's say that what you say is correct and she didn't ask the council for their opinion when she should have and acted all by herself when she shouldn't have. Just for the argument.

How many years are from MoP to Legion? 2? 3? 4? In that time, ever since the Purge of Dalaran, and up to Legion now, Dalaran has been Alliance. 100%.

There is 1 exception to this, Khadgar. Khadgar was neutral and worked with both the Alliance and the Horde and defended the Horde players in front of Jaina even in WoD. So, Khadgar always promoted working with both sides and Jaina promoted working with the Alliance since. That's 2.

Kalegos mostly partially left it, went to deal with his blue dragons, so we can ignore him for the time being.

Now, there are other members in the Council: Modera Ansirem Karlain Vargoth. So, ignoring Kalec, there's 6 members. Jaina is pro-Alliance, Khadgar is pro-neutrality. We know from the Legion questline that one of them was also pro-Alliance as he votes against the Horde rejoining.

So votes are now 2-1. So this means that if at least 2 more of them were pro-neutrality, Jaina's joining the Alliance would not have worked. Yet she was in the Alliance for 2-5 years with Dalaran. And Kirin Tor forces worked with her against the Horde. I saw no argument from any from the council except Khadgar. So, the rest either agreed with her or didn't care. And thus, it would mean that she didn't commit treason.



Last but not least, the topic of the Sunreavers. We'll go back to WW2. In WW2 after the attack on Pearl Harbour the USA sent its japanese-american population in special camps. Like internment camps, only not like those the Axis had, but with better conditions. Their goods were confiscated however and for the period of the war most remained imprisoned. Those that resisted were beaten or even shot. Why? Because those "of their kind" attacked Pearl Harbor and the american leadership didn't want to risk any of them becoming terrorists. Was it ok? Maybe not, but it made sense in the context.

Now, back to the Sunreavers. Jaina didn't know if 1 or 1000 helped Garrosh. She knew the Sunreavers helped Garrosh steal a weapon of mass destruction. This is the Pearl Harbor of trust. She can't know which Sunreavers are loyal to Garrosh so she gives them a choice, leave or go to an internment camp. Some leave, some accept going to the camp. Some however decide to fight. By simply doing so, they're confirming Jaina's suspicions. Yes, you might argue they are fighting for their homes, and that's true. So were the japanese americans. They were still beaten and shot if they did so. Because in that context it made them look like Axis sympathizers, just like the Sunreavers who fought looked like Horde sympathizers to Jaina.
Was it the right call? Maybe not, but just like imprisoning the japanese-americans, it made sense in the context.

[Hitei]

Again, she calmed down after War Crimes, she understood the cause of the Horde. Ups and downs isn't going extreme rekt after a misunderstanding that she didn't even cared to know more about.

It's flip-flopping writing.

How is that flip-flopping? She calms down but still doesn't entirely approve of them, and then they screwed over the Alliance again and got Varian, a very close personal friend, killed.