Why do Jaina and Genn get so much shit?

[Aeula]

Was he a civilian? A crippled elder? No? Then why was he scared? Because he was spineless. The threat was also partially directed at the blood elves... who were on treaties to jump ship already anyway at that point, so they could have gotten reinforced by the Alliance while the orcs didn't have anyone to attack them at that point.

I doubt Aethas knew about the negotiations, it was an internal thing. And yeah, he was partially a coward. But Garrosh had a long reach, nobody was untouchable when it came to him. He could easily make certain on his threats against civilians. Doesn't excuse punishing everyone for Aethas' silence.

[Deleted]

How is that flip-flopping? She calms down but still doesn't entirely approve of them, and then they screwed over the Alliance again and got Varian, a very close personal friend, killed.

See? That's exactly a reaction a leader shouldn't have. It's flip-flopping because it's extreme for no reason at all but warmonging drama. Tyrande had more reasons for distrusting the Horde then Jaina, and yet she didn't overreacted.

It's flip-flopping because War Crimes teached exactly to Jaina that there is always more than the eyes can see.

[Deleted]

No, they understand that the greatest threat in existance is horde not some dragon, demon, void lord or whatever that are not equal total immortals.
Alliance need to destroy the horde, and put all their heroes into statis chambers and destroy all their spirit healers, only then there will be peace.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

They get so much shit because they're shitlords.

[Hitei]

No people have this thing called a brain where they can bring to themselves rational thought even through the most intense of moments. As a leader she needs to do that. Not have any emotions. She's the type of person who hits at someone then screams bloody murder when hit back. Theramore attacked Durotar, Crossroads and other ares long before the mana bomb incident and even before Garrosh marched into Ashenvale.

She can call for peace all she likes but if she wants peace with the horde she should have told Varian "Take all your troops and get out of Kalimdor. Or sail around Kalimdor to Darkshore.", not attack the horde and put out diplomats to the horde via neutral parties (Kirin Tor or Argents). Hell the woman herself pretty much states "To be neutral help in the war against the horde." The woman does not understand that neutrality = sitting on your ass and helping neither side.

Yeah, even before Garrosh marched into Ashenvale.

Because, you know, it was Garrosh who attacked Ashenvale, and the Horde hadn't done anything aggressive there before that.

See? That's exactly a reaction a leader shouldn't have. It's flip-flopping because it's extreme for no reason at all but warmonging drama. Tyrande had more reasons for distrusting the Horde then Jaina, and yet she didn't overreacted.

It's flip-flopping because War Crimes teached exactly to Jaina that there is always more than the eyes can see.

I guess personal friends and your allies being killed and the Legion gaining a foothold to invade the entire planet is "no reason at all but warmongering drama" now.

[Deleted]

So it's ok to round up innocent people and kick them about, take away their rights just because there is a very very very small chance they might hold sympathies for someone you don't like. Sorry no that's fucked up. Even if in a world war I would never lock up anyone who might have some link to an enemy nation. It's innocent till proven guilty and if my nation falls because of it, then it is because for some reason my people didn't want to fight in that war and more power to them.

Maybe you're right. But it has happened in real life. And that was just an example. And it was done by a president whom many see as a hero.

There are more of those examples.

That's not the one I am talking about.
I am talking about SI:7

Oh, I forgat about that, my apologies.

[Halyon]

Imagine that, she didn't want to let the Horde, who just betrayed them again and left them to the slaughter on the Broken Shore from her POV (remember, the Alliance has no idea what happened on that cliff, all they saw is the Horde ditch them) leading to the death of her friend and king, back into the city under her rule.

Also, the Kirin Tor was an Alliance faction, not a neutral one. Its "neutrality" was a gameplay convenience for Wrath of the Lich King's shitty use of Dalaran as a plot device.

Her problem that she can't let personal feelings aside from a NEUTRAL faction that she was leading. At least she stepped down though, so not all bad.

[Deleted]

I guess personal friends and your allies being killed and the Legion gaining a foothold to invade the entire planet is "no reason at all but warmongering drama" now.

When those personal friends and allies are killed by the Legion and you want to attack the other group that was also fights the Legion for no other reason but "cowards", yes.

She even didn't accepted the rulling of the Council of Six, it shows how much of a leader she really was (I'm hoping a dreadlord).

[Aeula]

Typical horde eyh? As soon as shit hits the fan they are gone. Every man for himself should have been a horde racial xD

I get the feeling you horde players are quick to judge Alliance heroes, but as soon as one of your own champions are put to the stake you
have a excuse for everything.

I was alliance until the purge of Dalaran. The second I finished the alliance Shieldwall questline I faction changed to horde because of how disgusted I was with Jaina.

If I was quick to judge I'd be throwing Genn onto the pile too, but I'm not.

[Spunt]

That's not actually true even though it's an often repeated quote.

It may not be PC, but's it just the reality of war. If you have a opportunity to destroy your enemy while trying to reduce the deaths of your own people, you gotta take it. Just look at what happened to Japan during WW2.

War never changes.

[Hitei]

When those personal friends and allies are killed by the Legion and you want to attack the other group that was also fights the Legion for no other reason but "cowards", yes.

Oh, sorry, is the Horde fighting the Legion?

Because I seem to remember them running from the fight and leaving the Alliance to die because they were afraid for their lives.

[Deleted]

Oh, sorry, is the Horde fighting the Legion?

Because I seem to remember them running from the fight and leaving the Alliance to die because they were afraid for their lives.

And there is your bias. Have nothing more to add.

Do come again when you want to talk about without a pro-Alliance bias.

[Hitei]

And there is your bias. Have nothing more to add.

Bias? That's what happened, pumpkin.

The Horde showed up to a fight for the survival of the entire world without the resolve to lay down their lives for it. And they left, screwing over our one shot at taking down Gul'dan the easy way and letting the Alliance die in their place.

[Halyon]

Oh, sorry, is the Horde fighting the Legion?

Because I seem to remember them running from the fight and leaving the Alliance to die because they were afraid for their lives.

Having done the Horde version, we were fighting a big-ass army while alliance face-rolled some of Gul'dans fan club. Horde had to gtfo or be destroyed, and it cost us Vol'jin.

It cost alliance Varian, but he more or less chose to go.

[Spunt]

Bias? That's what happened, pumpkin.

The Horde showed up to a fight for the survival of the entire world without the resolve to lay down their lives for it. And they left, screwing over our one shot at taking down Gul'dan the easy way and letting the Alliance die in their place.

Did you even play the horde version? They were getting hammered from the ground AND air.

[Gambit5555]

A unity with a clear leader which was Varian Wrynn and now, Anduin Wrynn.



I'm sure he has more power than that. Like c'mon. He can order Jaina to let Horde into Dalaran, but can't stop Genn from starting war himself?

You would be completely incorrect. High King is a military position, similar the the top general in the military commanding the VP of the country to do something. Chain of command

[Deleted]

Bias? That's what happened, pumpkin.

The Horde showed up to a fight for the survival of the entire world without the resolve to lay down their lives for it. And they left, screwing over our one shot at taking down Gul'dan the easy way and letting the Alliance die in their place.

Yep, bias. Because a non-bias view would be talking about what really happen on the Broken Shore, by playing both sides scenarios (as a neutral non-biased lore junky usually do).

The Horde was being obliterated by land and air, with countless demons and at least three spaceships bombarding the place.

The factions were doomed from the very beginning they landed there, that was the point of the Broken Shore trap.

[Prismite]

I've been a long-time lurker on this site and never really felt compelled to get involved until now. Despite all the quasi-personal attacks and the constant fanboism labeling, this has been an amazing conversation.

I will admit going into this post that I am an alliance player and have never leveled any horde character past 20-ish, so I am familiar only with the alliance side of the story. Having played my warrior for all 12 years (Jesus, I should re-evaluate my life ) I know how *I* feel about these things.

Re: Jaina/Genn
Obviously both are terribly angry and its up to the individual to determine if its justified or not. Except that its not. When I'm mad at something *I* feel as if it's justified. Something I always tell the people around me IRL is that one person's perception is their reality, regardless of how accurate it is or isn't. To change that person's reality you must change their perception and anger is one of those emotions that almost completely negates rationality.

If I put myself in Jaina's shoes (so to speak) I try to imagine how I would feel if my homeland was obliterated by the leader of a military faction. Neutral or not, I'd feel pretty pissed off. I think back to the big boys being dropped (WW2) on Japan. I'm sure there was just as much anger as there was fear and pain on their side, despite them taking the first military action. The reasoning why is immaterial ... when I'm hurt, I'm hurt.

Plus, I don't think that enough attention has been paid to the death of Varian in this discussion. Jaina and Genn both carried a tremendous respect and even 'love' for him, which helped guide some of the actions/restraints. Some good, some bad. Watching your friend die in battle after feeling abandoned by your allies is going to have a lot of impact on you, mentally. Loss changes a person and since we all react differently to loss, its not unbelievable to me to watch both/either snap.

I've seen both sides of the BS cinematic ... but my first exposure was on the alliance side (obviously). I was mad when our support was taken and the loss we suffered made me truly angry at the horde (in general) and ready for some BG action to quell my bloodlust. After seeing the horde side of it ... well ... that brings me to another topic.

Re: Sylvanas (sp?)
Honestly, I'm not a fan. In PVP I have learned to respect, even fear, the horde tenacity at times. "Victory or Death" mentalities ALWAYS make an enemy that much more frightening to deal with. Especially when that enemy is already so capable of bringing it.

"Do not let the horde die this day."

What does that mean? To me (thinking with the Alliance Warrior-brain) it means do something to help assure the victory. Redouble the troops. Change formation. Call the allies.
What does it not mean? Retreat.

I think she made a bad decision and it has reduced whatever respect I had for her. Her action saved horde lives, no doubt ... but another action could have been equally effective that wouldn't make the horde feel like the weaker faction. Horde didnt seem so big and intimidating at that point, and I think some hordies are likely to feel the same.

I respected Thrall. I feared Garrosh. Who is Voljin again? Sylvanas is a mark now. Nothing more.

In the end, I *DO* hope to see Jaina as a boss this expansion. I echo the thoughts that its long-since past time that the Alliance are the target of a raid. I think there is still hope to calm Genn down, but I think Jaina is a done-deal.

On a side note, I hadn't even thought about the fact that Jaina was largely absent during the Varian death cinematic, as someone pointed out. Capable of porting out large quantities of people (ie Battle of Hyjal) but largely missing. Curious.

[Aeula]

Bias? That's what happened, pumpkin.

The Horde showed up to a fight for the survival of the entire world without the resolve to lay down their lives for it. And they left, screwing over our one shot at taking down Gul'dan the easy way and letting the Alliance die in their place.

That fight was doomed with or without the horde. Sure things looked all rosy on the ground, but on the ridge we had three fucking spaceships and several portals firing on us. Not to mention we had worse tech than the alliance. No gunship, no mech-suit gnomes. Nothing we could use to deal with the spaceships.

[Flaks]

Theramore deserved getting nuke considering how Jaina allowed it to be used for a military staging ground against the horde as a whole. While her anger at losing her home is justified her self righteousness is not. Destroying Theramore is one of the thing Garrosh did right and the whole of the horde should be in agreement with.

Genn I can't disagree with. He only saw the horde retreat and doesn't have the whole story and so is reacting appropriately.