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  1. #61
    People are going to have very different experiences and opinions of what 'struggling' actually means here because it depends entirely on the 'level' of your guild. If you're raiding mythic then yea, it probably does struggle. I would expect that, to be honest because of equal skill, it isn't going to beat a mage spec. I'm fine with that. I don't raid mythic, and to me elemental is a great spec for me to play as I do good DPS and I sometimes get asked to heal. Win-win. But of course I don't apply to this discussion, as apparently this is about end-game raiding. If I was raiding mythic, then yea I'd probably consider my warlock.
    I guess my point is, elemental only 'struggles' when min-maxing. If every single person in a guild is playing the absolute best they can, then yea your spec might be questioned if it's not doing the numbers needed, but other than that, it's not going to be an issue because other factors will get in the way and deem it less important. E.g. A mage isn't using his/her cooldown properly, or a rogue keeps standing in fire.
    Last edited by Jenerena; 2016-08-16 at 07:38 PM.

  2. #62
    The "hybrid" thing I'd say only really applies to the fact you have 1 chance of being great while pures have 3.

    I mean look at Boomkins. Clearly a hybrid but also extremely commonly a top tier desired class.

    It's just for some reason, even taking out our past mechanical issues, our dps has never been great. Hard to really explain it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unmerciful Conker View Post
    What?! They said soon? Well you dont hear that everyday, I dont know about you guys but that has put my mind at total rest.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by AveQT View Post
    Yes, of course we would like Ele to be top-1 dps, it's just rare thing to see. Why did you pick a hybrid class and play it as dps if you want to be 100% competitive? The thing is that on like top-500 guild, the progress bosses are not hard because of the group doesn't have enough dps, they're hard because players don't counter the mechanics. Of course we have had wipes for enrage/berserk of the encounter, but usually the first kill is already like 20sec or more before boss enrages/berserks. I am not saying the extra dps wouldn't help, of course it helps, but it doesn't matter so much when you have half of your raid playing like retards. I don't just personally care if my class is bad, I try my best, it has been this far enough, yet never I've been replaced. I hope they buff ele because you guys could enjoy it more then, but anyway, I play the class I want (spec depends on what guild wants). Sorry for bad English, and sorry for bad comments.
    But balance druids bring way more to the raid and they are "hybrids", are they not? Same with priests. Elemental is just lacking atm.

    The thing is miss the most is MoP lightning bols - Running around while casting made element feel som much better for me at least. I might not be enough to make it as good as a mage or a warlock but it would make it more fun.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Elemental is struggling for being a desirable spec for very high end Mythic progress and pushing rankings in Mythic+. Not for anything else. Always keep that in mind.
    Elemental is good for casual, but not high end raiding or pvp.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by AveQT View Post
    Why did you pick a hybrid class and play it as dps if you want to be 100% competitive?
    Being a hybrid hasnt mattered for years! There have been several tiers where a hybrid has been top dps.

  6. #66
    I don't understand the comments in this thread. Almost every class and spec I have looked at on forums say their DPS is poor. So, I don't get who people are comparing elemental shamans too, if everyone says their class has low DPS. And these are people discussing the pre-patch and Beta data. Tbh, a lot of these comments seem like a load of crap. Whether a class is hybrid or not doesn't matter. Plenty of hybrid classes are had top numbers in the past, and so many people say non-hybrid (like warlock and rogue) are crap right now. In fact, warlock seems to be the most complained about class. And yet, people here are saying warlocks are god-tier and elemental is crap. This makes no sense!

    Make up your mind!

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by EbullientPrism View Post
    I don't understand the comments in this thread. Almost every class and spec I have looked at on forums say their DPS is poor. So, I don't get who people are comparing elemental shamans too, if everyone says their class has low DPS. And these are people discussing the pre-patch and Beta data. Tbh, a lot of these comments seem like a load of crap. Whether a class is hybrid or not doesn't matter. Plenty of hybrid classes are had top numbers in the past, and so many people say non-hybrid (like warlock and rogue) are crap right now. In fact, warlock seems to be the most complained about class. And yet, people here are saying warlocks are god-tier and elemental is crap. This makes no sense!

    Make up your mind!
    Would like to know how you could compare DPS without logs backing them up. The concerns people have with Elemental compared to other specs, like mages and other pures, is the scaling and mechanics. Talents, traits, abilities and even secondary stats work against each other.

  8. #68
    Also knowing if your spec is going to be viable/desirable at max level is a massive concern, and one thats even more compounded now with the artifact weapons. If you pick the wrong spec to start with, than your other specs weapons are behind, and thats not something you can just fix easily/quickly via regearing (such as gear funneling in previous expansions). Same goes for if blizzard retunes classes after expansion launch and botches it like they did to warlocks in WoD (RoF nerf out of nowhere).

  9. #69
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by dexx View Post
    Being a hybrid hasnt mattered for years! There have been several tiers where a hybrid has been top dps.
    I am not sure when hybrid was top-1 on simulationcraft (Enha was top-2 on some point in SoO), but my point was; if you want play ranged class that has high potential to be top dps always; choose mage. It just feels like everyone is crying about their spec and nothing is good. Please stop it, play what you want; don't whine if it's bad, just adapt to changes. Example; fire mage is really good for mythic+; fire mage forums are full of whining about how bad fire mages are in mythic+, even tho they are one of the fotm specs for single and aoe. Just try your best and try to enjoy the class, if you are in the guild where the leader might replace you if your class does bad dps, then you might have a problem, but at least my guild leader allows people to join raids even tho they play weaker class than what is the top-1 on simcraft.

    I get triggered when I see every single mmo-champ class/spec discussion being crying about how "our" spec and class is the worst there is. I am not here yelling that ele is best, but all I am trying to say is that you should play the spec you enjoy playing on, not the spec that does most dps on raids (if your guild leader allows you to).
    Last edited by mmoca5f6b06df9; 2016-08-17 at 08:35 AM.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaucho- View Post
    Would like to know how you could compare DPS without logs backing them up. The concerns people have with Elemental compared to other specs, like mages and other pures, is the scaling and mechanics. Talents, traits, abilities and even secondary stats work against each other.
    I think you misunderstood me. I am not personally running numbers. What I said is based off what I have read other people (like yourself) say in several forums over several websites. Of course, people's concerns are important. I was never questioning that. What I was frustrated with are all the replies in this thread saying how poor DPS-wise this spec is. A lot of people in this thread are saying Ele shaman are low-mid tier DPS, but everyone keeps saying that about their own class (i gave an example of warlock and rogue). So, some one here or in the other threads is lying. Not every class has low DPS, and I am of the belief that Ele Shaman has been performing exceedingly well in beta testing.

    Mages is a poor example to use because Mages have almost never been bad. Their place as in the top DPS has been consistent throughout all xpacs. So no, Ele shamans probably won't top them, but that isn't what needs to be discussed. I believe people are just spreading misinformation in these threads, and it is confusing a lot of people that are trying to figure things out (me included).


    Edit: I would also like to bring up another interesting point. On Reddit, a poll was created about which class people were maining in Legion.

    (see reddit for link, can't post it)

    Shaman ranks in the highest w/ over 3000 people voting for them compared to the lowest warlock with a little over 1600 votes. Now, we have no way of knowing if the people voting are playing resto, enhance, or ele. But, I think we can make an assumption that some thought was given by the voters to the effectiveness of the class in DPS. Yes, some votes are class fantasy based only or whatever, but its foolish to think the overwhelming majority didn't include their thoughts on PvE effectiveness. Warlocks, on the other hand, have the least votes for a "pure" spec. People don't want to play this class, and it is likely this has to do with some of its performance. So yeah, I do get frustrated when I see people hyping warlock DPS as greater than elemental shaman, when a majority of players seem to be upset over warlock performance. See the forums here and on the WoW website for more research.
    Last edited by EbullientPrism; 2016-08-17 at 08:56 AM.

  11. #71
    Scarab Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EbullientPrism View Post
    I think you misunderstood me. I am not personally running numbers. What I said is based off what I have read other people (like yourself) say in several forums over several websites. Of course, people's concerns are important. I was never questioning that. What I was frustrated with are all the replies in this thread saying how poor DPS-wise this spec is. A lot of people in this thread are saying Ele shaman are low-mid tier DPS, but everyone keeps saying that about their own class (i gave an example of warlock and rogue). So, some one here or in the other threads is lying. Not every class has low DPS, and I am of the belief that Ele Shaman has been performing exceedingly well in beta testing.

    Mages is a poor example to use because Mages have almost never been bad. Their place as in the top DPS has been consistent throughout all xpacs. So no, Ele shamans probably won't top them, but that isn't what needs to be discussed. I believe people are just spreading misinformation in these threads, and it is confusing a lot of people that are trying to figure things out (me included).


    Edit: I would also like to bring up another interesting point. On Reddit, a poll was created about which class people were maining in Legion.

    (see reddit for link, can't post it)

    Shaman ranks in the highest w/ over 3000 people voting for them compared to the lowest warlock with a little over 1600 votes. Now, we have no way of knowing if the people voting are playing resto, enhance, or ele. But, I think we can make an assumption that some thought was given by the voters to the effectiveness of the class in DPS. Yes, some votes are class fantasy based only or whatever, but its foolish to think the overwhelming majority didn't include their thoughts on PvE effectiveness. Warlocks, on the other hand, have the least votes for a "pure" spec. People don't want to play this class, and it is likely this has to do with some of its performance. So yeah, I do get frustrated when I see people hyping warlock DPS as greater than elemental shaman, when a majority of players seem to be upset over warlock performance. See the forums here and on the WoW website for more research.
    The source of your frustration probably lies in the fact that most posters around here are struggling to view the issue outside of their own bubble and confirmation bias. It is undeniable that Elemental is unlikely to contend for a top spot as a highly desirable ranged spec in progression in Legion. Refer to Bink's blog and many posts in this forum for that.

    It is also undeniable, however, that Elemental is not a "shit spec" or "unusable" etc etc. At release, Elemental will be middle-of-the-pack, a perfectly viable choice for the vast majority of players for any situation (not referring to PvP here, because I simply don't dabble in it).

    The only reason you should hesitate to main it is if you are contending for a regular spot in a cutting edge guild - in that case you should confer with your officers and raidleaders whether they want to make you gamble on the spec. The same applies to many other specs, it must be noted once again. Elemental is not the ugly duckling here, it is just one of many specs that will struggle to rise to the top of the pack compared to the usual suspects.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Northy View Post
    Elemental is good for casual, but not high end raiding or pvp.
    Isn't this rather silly? I mean, if you're not as good, you clearly need ever advantage you can get.
    If anything, the shaman is even worse when played by an average or bad palyer.

  13. #73
    I would take anything you read here with a grain of salt until sims are out. Just assume all classes are fine and play what you want. I agree I want the class I play to do well but I almost never see someone in my guild get sat because they were 5% off of the top dps.... My guild has been 13/13 mythic since January on a 2 day raid week so while we arent fighting for top 10, we are decent and I am not worried at all. As others have said, if your goal is to see your name at the top of recount/skada play a hunter or mage but if your goal is to just raid and do well play what you enjoy and learn to avoid mechanics. I promise the mage who dies to fire 5/10 times will be sat before the ele shaman who shows up every night, pulls his weight in dps, rarely fails to mechanics, and can heal well when a main healer cant show.

    In the end if blizzard somehow managed to fuck up so bad that you are barely beating the tanks then reroll but like others have said every class forum I have been to is crying right now.

  14. #74
    The Patient gambit998's Avatar
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    I am still gobsmacked at the fact that there isnt a spec perk for Elemental to Wind sear at there max range......often the case is the fact that in a raid enviroment i get shouted at for going to mid range to interrupt because i am forced out of position with the rest of the ranged specs. Granted we have the shortest cooldown on any interrupt in the game but we also have the shortest lockout. that alone should allow Elemental as a ranged spec to beable to at least interrupt at there max range.
    Last edited by gambit998; 2016-08-17 at 01:48 PM.

  15. #75
    What will be the best bet, Balance or Elemental?

    I like my Elemental a bit more because of procs and animations (rotation is also smooth).
    But I've always wanted to play a Balance, so i'm not sure.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Euroguy View Post
    What will be the best bet, Balance or Elemental?

    I like my Elemental a bit more because of procs and animations (rotation is also smooth).
    But I've always wanted to play a Balance, so i'm not sure.
    Balance is better, elemental is terrible and should never be played. I know this because I read posts on forums. Enjoy your new druid!

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Isn't this rather silly? I mean, if you're not as good, you clearly need ever advantage you can get.
    If anything, the shaman is even worse when played by an average or bad palyer.
    Its hard for people to grasp the concept that your class shouldn't change your performance when compared to people of equal skill.

  18. #78
    Scarab Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jotaux View Post
    Its hard for people to grasp the concept that your class shouldn't change your performance when compared to people of equal skill.
    This has literally never been the case in WoW in the entire history of the game, and will never be the case (as in, all specs are perfectly balanced, do competitive DPS within <1% and none have any kind of advantage on any given Tier).

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by AveQT View Post
    Yep, but this doesn't really matter if you aren't going for world first kills. Just compare your dps to other elemental shamans dps and try do better than they. At least my guild doesn't mind if shamans are bad, they just hope that the player is good, it compensates this struggle a lot.
    It hampers raid progress though, I don't like to say it since I actually enjoy Shamans, but they are just really bad compared to other classes, and I just don't mean going into Legion.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    This has literally never been the case in WoW in the entire history of the game, and will never be the case (as in, all specs are perfectly balanced, do competitive DPS within <1% and none have any kind of advantage on any given Tier).
    Even <5% would be enough to not make a class completely useless. I don't know why you continually go the the <1% figure you pulled from your ass and try to apply it to what I said. We get it, you just expect elemental shamans to play better than their raid to justify a spot.

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