Mafia 73: Emergency is NOW!

[Crackleslap]

Hm, I'm actually going to address it anyway because I actually dislike some of your logic.

That is a very interesting statement, considering this is exactly what I did to Danner last game.
My Kryllian read was a legit read. I thought he was scummy, I pinged him out and disliked his responses. I have a very hard time believing you actually thought that this suspicious considering I do it all the time.

I'm gonna have to agree with dupti on this one. Last game I saw what he was doing, I didn't chip in on it or anything, still ended up with the same conclusion later on when he said something about it.

Does it always end with the same conclusion though? Not necessarily, but I understand the process of it.

[Reticence]

I'm gonna have to agree with dupti on this one. Last game I saw what he was doing, I didn't chip in on it or anything, still ended up with the same conclusion later on when he said something about it.

Does it always end with the same conclusion though? Not necessarily, but I understand the process of it.

Agree how, that that's how he usually plays?

[Virothe]

You say this yet you never bothered wanting to try and go after Arialla when his train did start to form. Then again you did go missing for 24 hours at that point...

Sometimes I wonder why I try to defend Arialla. I honestly do not believe he is scum and he will be or is being used currently has lynch bait.

I'm kinda on the fence about Aria, but he is a bit more active this game so I'm not likely to pursue him unless I find something scummy in his play. I haven't as of yet, but my feelings towards them right now are pretty neutral.

That said I'm still happy with my vote where it is, Danner isn't really playing his usual town game and while he's been posting a lot it's again in a very "Meh" fashion in regards to anything that's been going on. It just doesn't sit well with me that he would play like that as town.

[Crackleslap]

Agree how, that that's how he usually plays?

That he fishes for reactions or how you react. That it's a play style of his, I don't see it as a scum tell. The scum tell comes more so from how he perhaps uses said read.

[Danner]

I'm totally not trusting Celtic anymore, but I have a decent reason to think Reticence isn't scum. If not for that, I'd say this was some scum pile-on.
@celtic:
I will cheerfully ignore your aspersions, but I will remind everyone else to note that they were there. Useful for late-game.
Now, did you have a point in there, beyond "Danner has been playing differently", or did you just want to discredit me for the sake of it? Trump comparisons is a low blow, and you know it.

vote: celtic

I have seen no reason to guard my words. But apparently you're running the Cardinal Richelieu school here.

As to why I think Jynx is town, I think I have explained this three times already, and at this point I believe you are being deliberately obtuse about it. Jynx gave up. You even chastised Jynx for it. The way that that giveup took place is a major and strong townread in my book. I would expect Jynx snap back... but the snapback was just a resignation. An honest reaction from someone out of arguments, IMO. That is why I read Jynx as town.

@Reticence:

What's with the use of 'waffling' between you and celtic? Is that a new word now?
You're also running the Cardinal Richelieu school here, taking everything I have said and interpreting in the worst way possible, trying to squeeze a stone. You are allowed. I'm saying you are wasting your time doing so. That's been my main argument all game, and I can't quite get that message though.

I voted Arialla because I needed to vote somewhere, and the number of trains were limited.
Arialla was the best option. I didn't particularly like the Arialla train at the time because it felt like a cop-out. Also don't like the vote train forming on Arialla now.

[Deleted]

Dividing and conquering isn't going to work here Danner. We both have solid independent reasons for thinking your scum and saying one of us is scum while the other is town won't sabe your hide

My point Danner is that you aren't playing town Danner. You're playing some weird non-town Danner whose defensiveness is interesting.
As to the trump comment: The Brawler is in my signature for a reason

So she/he gives up and suddenly jynx is town? Well then why are you defending yourself?!? Give up and we can all see your townieness!

As to not seeing it before I apologise. There's been a lot of information to take in and I sometimes mis stuff

Arialla is the best option because nobody, including you, has proposed a real alternative. Which is again odd considering your usual effeciency is presenting multiple theories/targets

[dupti]

I'm not sure this is a valid defense of this point. I was not talking about the tactic in general or your historical use for it. I said this game, specifically, with Kryllian, specifically, there was a disconnect for me between your read, how early it was, and what I had seen from Kryllian prior to that post.

Having your suspicion of him grow based on his responses is also not a problem for me. Your initial read in the context of Kryllian's posts is what seemed out of place. I thought that was clear.

I'm actually not trying to defend myself, but I'm questioning your motives for finding it suspicious. Last game I thought Danner was scum after one single post, yet you did not find me suspicious for pushing that. This game I thought Kryllian was scum after a couple of posts, so I pushed that. For some reason you find this scummy, yet you did not in the last game.

Why would I openly claim I it was legit read this early on as scum? What would my motivation be as scum?

Nice twist, but no.

It should be fairly obvious that this part of the suspicion is based upon the premise that Danner is scum, and obviously the validity of this point is in question if he is not.

Um Ret, isn't that exactly what I just said?

I'm not really talking the timing of your push so much as the content of your replies to him. You're clear to indicate that you're not a fan of his responses, but there has been less weight to those replies than I anticipated.

And this is another statement I have to question. You are trying to compare it to last game, but the obvious difference is that Danner's reaction.

I have acknowledged your explanation of your vote and have factored that into my read of the situation, but am expressing that I found the timing and circumstances of it jarring, "despite your earlier suspicions". I'm not sure how I can be misrepresenting you with an expression of what went through my mind when it happened.

You are misrepresenting me because you aren't taking into consideration that I was was more interested in Kryllian yesterday, thus my vote couldn't have been on Danner before that. Unless you simply find it suspicious because I voted after Celtic, in which case I can kind of understand your point if you do not believe my explanation for doing so. I do however have to ask you, if I was going to bus my teammate at that point, do you think I would leave a naked vote like that?

Before I go on... quite frankly, I'm fried, so I'm perfectly willing to accept that either my intent has not been completely clear with my posts today or that I'm taking your posts too personally. However, it would be negligent of me not to point out that your defense in each of the previous points involved some level of misinterpretation or turning my own point against me. I also want to note that you kind of did something similar earlier today when you said "consider my vote on him" did not mean anything if I did not question Danner, even though I had. And while you did address my other concerns from that part of the day, you never did address my concern about that.

Turnabout's fair play and all, but if either of us are hoping to establish some level of trust here, then we should probably make efforts to avoid this sort of thing going forward. I'll state for the record right now that I'm not trying to misrepresent or misconstrue anything you're saying, and I hope the same is true of you.

I do not believe I have misrepresented you a single time. In fact I even asked you if that was what you meant.
I believe you are leaving out a couple of details, which makes me look worse. You don't really need to take my explanations into consideration, as that would be WIFOM, but I think the read you have on me based on the Kryllian read (seeing as you find the timing suspicious) is questionable and I also find it rather weird how you attempted to call me out for not voting on Danner before, when I was obviously going for someone else. In the end the only point I'm willing to give you, is my vote after Celtics. If you do not buy my explanation, I can understand why you might find it suspicious.

To me it feels like you are either being very paranoid, which I think is more likely to come from town, or that you are trying to force distrust on me because you do not want me to try to lead town. For what it is worth, I am more inclined to believe you are town at the moment, but it's a very weak town read.

@Danner please answer my question in #345.

[Danner]

Dividing and conquering isn't going to work here Danner. We both have solid independent reasons for thinking your scum and saying one of us is scum while the other is town won't sabe your hide

My point Danner is that you aren't playing town Danner. You're playing some weird non-town Danner whose defensiveness is interesting.
As to the trump comment: The Brawler is in my signature for a reason

So she/he gives up and suddenly jynx is town? Well then why are you defending yourself?!? Give up and we can all see your townieness!

As to not seeing it before I apologise. There's been a lot of information to take in and I sometimes mis stuff

Arialla is the best option because nobody, including you, has proposed a real alternative. Which is again odd considering your usual effeciency is presenting multiple theories/targets

It still boils down to "Danner isn't playing like last game, is probably scum".
I don't mind that argument. I'm trying my best to say that this is a dead end. That argument isn't going to go anywhere. Look elsewhere.

It's when you start overarching on that argument that I think you are scum. You and Reticence both do, right now, listing virtually every post I have ever made in this game as a scumtell, pulling tactics that is extremely underhanded. Yes, I'm looking at the trump comparison as the primary example, but it's far from the only one. How the hell do I even react to accusations of "waffling"? Is there a rational criticism in there, beyond the "Danner isn't playing like last game, is probably scum" argument, or are you just aiming to be underhanded here? I believe you are. Thus my vote.

So why you and not Reticence? It'll make sense later, promise.

- - - Updated - - -

@Danner please answer my question in #345.

I knew I forgot something.
Got a 2.5 hr meeting coming up, will answer it after that.

[JynxieJ]

I'm gonna go ahead and move my vote, I don't feel like lynching danner is a good move right now, as I don't find him as scummy as others however we do need to get the day moving.

Unvote
Vote Celtic

[Deleted]

I'm gonna go ahead and move my vote, I don't feel like lynching danner is a good move right now, as I don't find him as scummy as others however we do need to get the day moving.

Unvote
Vote Celtic

Well this is interesting. Why me over Arialla?

And please dont use the reasoning of 'Well I don't think Danner is scum so you must be'

@Danner I'll respond in full when I get home.

[Marack]

vote celtic
Not feeling the tough townie claim. BP vest popped threw flags cow me when you claimed it. I believe arialla's claim more then yours.
@JynxieJ why did you not scream when visited, as you claimed? How do you know you were investigated vice something else.

I need to go back and reread the interactions over this gameday. On a break at work on phone and won't be able to add/respond until I get off work (6hrs or so). Will be around at end of day.

[dupti]

@Marack, so you do not believe Celtic was attacked?

[Allowyn]

So, I've been alway a lot today because of work promotion training and stuff, so I'm going to policy lynch Arialla for a sheer lack of activity. I would have gone for Krayzy but they stated reasons why inactivity earlier and I'm okay with leaving them be for one more round. I'm going to bed and I'll set my alarm for an hour before day end in case the vote throw goes elsewhere. Mostly because I have no leads right now to follow up. So, ugh.

[Anakso]

Considering we've only had one NK so far, or 2 considering Celtics claim, I do find it odd that we'd have a tough townie in the first place. 1 NK isn't enough to be throwing vests on random VTs unless mafia have slightly too high numbers or something, having said that I do think we have more than 1 NK as said before just because 1 is very low and risks the game being super long as we're seeing with it being day 3 with only 2 people dead.

I don't like the vigi assumption either, I never like vigi assumpions and last game proved why, but this especially could easily be mafia thinking they found a TPR because he's Celtic and was lying low. Makes more sense to me than a vigi targeting Celtic over low posts actually.

But yea not so much feeling the Celtic vote, am going to leave my vote on Danner.

[Allowyn]

So,

Vote: Arialla

[JynxieJ]

@Marack Apparently I wasn't visited, There was confusion with something that was posted in my QT.

Celtic, my vote on you was more of an information getting vote. Also I don't fully believe the Vigi claim of popping a vest. Is it possible? Sure.

I really don't like the blind defense Listo always does for Arialla, that gets old every game.

I am willing to change my vote however, we need to settle on a lynch. I'm not comfortable lynching Danner today, as Yes, he could be scum knowing I'm not on it defending me, trying to sway my view, however he usually has good input and if he lives too long then we know he is probably scum.

[Danner]

#4: Jynx votes on Virothe, || Virothe: 1
#6: Catta votes on Xanjori, || Virothe: 1, Xanjori: 1
#9: Celtic votes on Virothe, || Virothe: 2, Xanjori: 1
#28: Dupti votes on Xanjori, || Virothe: 2, Xanjori: 2
#38: Krayzy votes on Virothe, || Virothe: 3, Xanjori: 3
#61: Celtic unvotes Virothe, || Virothe: 2, Xanjori: 3
#67: Celtic votes on Virothe, || Virothe: 3, Xanjori: 3
#70: Anakso votes on Virothe, || Virothe: 4, Xanjori: 3
__ First vote on Arialla
#71: Kryllian votes on Arialla, || Virothe: 4, Xanjori: 3, Arialla: 1
#76: Reticence votes on Xanjori, || Virothe: 4, Xanjori: 4, Arialla: 1
#89: Virothe votes on Xanjori, || Virothe: 4, Xanjori: 5, Arialla: 1
#98: Catta unvotes Xanjori and votes on Virothe, || Virothe: 5, Xanjori: 4, Arialla: 1
#113: Crackle votes on Virothe, || Virothe: 6, Xanjori: 4, Arialla: 1
__ And now the first vote on Jynx:
#117: Marack votes on Jynx. || Virothe: 6, Xanjori: 4, Arialla: 1, Jynx: 1
#122: Xanjori unvotes Virothe and votes on Jynx, || Virothe: 5, Xanjori 4, Arialla: 1, Jynx 2
#125: Graeham votes on Jynx, || Virothe: 5, Xanjori: 4, Arialla: 1, Jynx: 3
#128: Celtic unvotes Virothe and votes on Arialla, || Virothe: 4, Xanjori: 4, Arialla: 2, Jynx: 3
#130: Allowyn votes on Jynx, || Virothe: 4, Xanjori: 4, Arialla: 2, Jynx: 4
#133: Dranx votes on Arialla, || Virothe: 4, Xanjori: 4, Arialla: 3, Jynx: 4
#135: Jynx unvotes Virothe and votes on Xanjori, || Virothe: 3, Xanjori: 5, Arialla: 3, Jynx: 4
#140: Arialla votes on Jynx, || Virothe: 3, Xanjori: 5, Arialla: 3, Jynx: 5
#142: Catta unvotes Virothe and votes on Arialla, || Virothe: 2, Xanjori: 5, Arialla: 4, Jynx: 5
#143: Marack unvotes Jynx and votes on Arialla, || Virothe: 2, Xanjori: 5, Arialla: 5, Jynx: 4
__ Arialla claims (#144)
#149: Danner votes on Arialla, || Virothe: 2, Xanjori: 5, Arialla: 6, Jynx: 4
#151: Virothe unvotes Xanjori and votes on Jynx, || Virothe: 2, Xanjori: 4, Arialla: 7, Jynx: 6
#152: Listo votes on Jynx, || Virothe: 2, Xanjori: 4, Arialla 7, Jynx: 7
#153: Marack unvotes Arialla and votes on Jynx, || Virothe: 2, Xanjori: 4, Arialla: 6, Jynx: 7
#154: Kryllian unvotes Arialla and votes on Jynx, || Virothe: 2, Xanjori: 4, Arialla: 5, Jynx: 8
#155: Dranx unvotes Arialla, || Virothe: 2, Xanjori: 4, Arialla: 4, Jynx: 8
#156: Jynx unvotes Xanjori and votes on Jynx, || Virothe: 2, Xanjori: 3, Arialla: 4, Jynx: 9

No-read analysis of raw data without collaboarting if that data actually is true, coming up!
You even bolded the interesting parts. How ... hand-holdingly considerate...

--

But yeah, this is actually interesting.
First point of interest, post #70 IMO. The difference between 3 and 4 votes is interesting, and Anakso's vote here is deciding on something. If Xanjori is scum, then Anakso deserves a scumread. If Virothe is scum, then Anakso deserves a townread. If both are scum, then no read.

Could make some point on Kryllian, but we aready know Kryllian was town at this point.

Reticence playing the catchup-game in #76. Opposite vote of Kryllian here, leading to opposite reads.

Virothe votes Xanjori next. Given the circumstance of Virothe in that position, I cannot hold that read in much weight.

Next up, #98 - catta swtiches to Virothe (from Xanjori). We already know Catta's allegiance, so can't read much into it beyond his opinion.

Crackle votes Virothe over Xanjori next. If Xanjori is scum, that's a scumread for Crackleslap. If Virothe is scum, that's a townread for Crackleslap.

And then, both these trains just fizzle in favour of tthe Jynx/Arialla trains. Jynx eventually returns to Xanjori in #135, but at that point... neither train got any more traction.

--

The interesting point of the train start from about post #140. It takes 3 votes on a train to make it interesting IMO. But Arialla voting Jynx in itself isn't terribly useful, so post #140 by itself isn't helping that much. Catta voting Arialla over Jynx isn't useful either, we know Catta was town; so all it is worth is Catta's opinion.

#143 is the first real interesting vote. Marack switches trains, pushing Arialla in the lead. This is a vote that in itself warrants closer inspection of rationales. If Jynx is scum, this is a major scumread on Marack. Opposite, Marack townread. If both are scum, then no read. (I personally still don't believe Jynx is scum, but you told me to leave that at the door).

I vote Arialla next. If Jynx is scum, I'm a scumread.

Virothe votes Jynx. This could be scum trying to save Arialla - but I'm hesitant to believe that. Nonetheless, if Arialla is scum, Virothe is scummy.
And then Listo does the same. Same read.

Marack then switches trains ... again. I believe we're close to the end of the day, but without that context this vote doesn't look particularly pretty, as it means Marack would get an opposite read as above. I'll just stop counting at this point. Dranxadin next unvotes Arialla, and Jynx self-votes. Leading to a no-lynch.

Relations table:
If Xanjori is scum and Virothe is town, then
- Anakso scumread.
- Crackleslap scumread.
- Reticence townread

If Virothe is scum and Xanjori is town, then
- Anakso townread.
- Crackleslap townread.
- Reticence scumread.

If Jynx is scum, and Arialla is town, then
- Marack scumread

If Jynx is town, and Arialla is scum, then
- Marack townread

[JynxieJ]

One way to solve a lot of doubt about reads is to lynch Arialla.

Unvote
Vote Arialla

[Deleted]

Just to point out in terms of that vote table from day 1, Jynx's self vote was after the deadline/not counted, ironically if it had been he would have got himself lynched on mod majority.
It does come back to my original point though, I feel that there is a lot of information we can extract from it, but we need to know alignments of the train targets.

Not really seeing the merits of the Celtic push right now.

[Reticence]

That he fishes for reactions or how you react. That it's a play style of his, I don't see it as a scum tell. The scum tell comes more so from how he perhaps uses said read.

Um... I don't see it as a scum-tell, either, Crackle. I said that.

I'm actually not trying to defend myself, but I'm questioning your motives for finding it suspicious. Last game I thought Danner was scum after one single post, yet you did not find me suspicious for pushing that. This game I thought Kryllian was scum after a couple of posts, so I pushed that. For some reason you find this scummy, yet you did not in the last game.

This was misinterpretation number one, but now that I'm better-rested I'll try to chalk it up to me not explaining myself well enough.

The distinction here is that, while I disagreed with your read on Danner last game, I could at least see where you were coming from. This game, I not only disagreed with you but I could not really buy into your explanation. That in itself is not something I considered a lynchable offense, mind you, as we don't always see eye-to-eye to the degree that we did last game, but it served as the foundation for my later reads.

Does that make more sense?

Why would I openly claim I it was legit read this early on as scum? What would my motivation be as scum?

I don't really factor that in, as you're one of the players that I feel manages to mimic their town behavior quite well as scum. So the obvious motivation here would be to pass yourself off as town-Dupti. Aside from that, you'll forgive me if I ignore this as WIFOM, yes?

Um Ret, isn't that exactly what I just said?

Yes, it is exactly what you said, except for the part where you also implied that I had insider information by pursuing it. I was refuting that implication and clarifying that, yes, this point it is obviously contingent on Danner's alignment.

This was the second misinterpretation I was referring to, and I'll be honest, I don't currently have an explanation for this one.

And this is another statement I have to question. You are trying to compare it to last game, but the obvious difference is that Danner's reaction.

No, I'm not trying to compare it to last game. I'm trying to compare it to what I expect from you as a town player, particularly when faced with things that don't sit well with you. There's a slight disconnect there for me, but that's also why I brought up the possibility that we're all just tired from the last game.

You are misrepresenting me because you aren't taking into consideration that I was was more interested in Kryllian yesterday, thus my vote couldn't have been on Danner before that.

No, you are misunderstanding me here, because I have already acknowledged that explanation when I asked you about it earlier.

This was the third misrepresentation, but I'll let this one go because I clearly read your claim that I was misrepresenting you as more sinister last night than I did this morning. It was a case of "he said I'm misrepresenting him, and I'm not, so he's clearly misrepresenting me". I propose we both write this one off. Agreed?

Unless you simply find it suspicious because I voted after Celtic, in which case I can kind of understand your point if you do not believe my explanation for doing so.

This, partly. It was not your vote on Danner itself that I find suspicious, but that it seemed in direct response to Celtic's post rather than as a continuation of your earlier suspicions. It was sudden, and I found it jarring, like a knee-jerk reaction.

As for your explanation, I found it reasonable, but have yet to determine whether or not I completely believe it. That's actually partly why I presented these points to you, because I need to determine that part for myself and I felt the best way to do that was to engage you directly.

I do however have to ask you, if I was going to bus my teammate at that point, do you think I would leave a naked vote like that?

Under ideal circumstances, no, but if you thought the train was going to pick up quick and wanted to make sure you were on as early as possible, you might.

I do not believe I have misrepresented you a single time. In fact I even asked you if that was what you meant.

Let me clarify that I did not say the misrepresentation was intentional. In fact, the way I addressed it allowed for the possibility that I was reading too much into it, and in one case I probably was due to tiredness.

I believe you are leaving out a couple of details, which makes me look worse.

If I am, it's not intentional. Hopefully the above eases those concerns; anything I've left out or not addressed, please let me know.

You're also running the Cardinal Richelieu school here, taking everything I have said and interpreting in the worst way possible, trying to squeeze a stone.

Wasn't the point of Richelieu that he could find something within six lines with which to hang a man? That's not really what I did, considering I kept your posts intact and posted my reactions to them.

You are allowed. I'm saying you are wasting your time doing so. That's been my main argument all game, and I can't quite get that message though.

I will say this, on the off-chance you're town. I have one "sliver of doubt", to coin a term from you, that my read on you is completely wrong. If that is the case, I implore you to re-examine your past actions and your defenses and at least acknowledge that you've been doing scummy things all game.

You and Reticence both do, right now, listing virtually every post I have ever made in this game as a scumtell, pulling tactics that is extremely underhanded.

How is it underhanded to quote you in your entirety and then post my reactions to it? I'm not going to apologize for finding most of your posts scummy this game and including them in my case against you.

How the hell do I even react to accusations of "waffling"? Is there a rational criticism in there, beyond the "Danner isn't playing like last game, is probably scum" argument, or are you just aiming to be underhanded here? I believe you are. Thus my vote.

I don't think the player who builds cases with terms like casus belli and "the Richelieu school" has any room to complain about the usage of a word as part of the case against them. "Waffling" is a real word, with real meaning in the context it was provided, and a quick look-up would easily explain that accusation; barring that, you could have asked for a clarification.

To accuse you of waffling is to accuse you of being indecisive, wishy-washy, non-committal, of talking a lot while saying little.

This is not a case of "Danner isn't playing like last game, is probably scum". Danner isn't playing like town-Danner. Big difference.

Danner's adopted personalities in these games aside, the core of town-Danner is decisive, unafraid of being wrong, and sticks to what he perceives to be facts, even meta facts. You nailed Kryllian last game with a case that consisted entirely of "Doctors do not play the way you did. Fact.", and you turned out to be right.

Town-Danner does not spend an entire post listing out every possibility that he could go with, hem and haw over them and then do nothing. Town-Danner examines the situation from all angles, acknowledges the points of his accusers, owns up to his suspicious behavior, and does not attempt to build emotional armor.

Your behavior this game is not consistent with what I expect from town-Danner.

- - - Updated - - -

(#377), on the other hand, is the best post I've seen from you this game.

- - - Updated - - -

Unrelated to all of that:
@Celtic209, can you explain why you claimed, or direct me to where you may have explained already?