European migrant crisis [Megathread]

[Nitro Fun]

Yes, there is something called "skill gap". Where as skills and education improve, lower skill jobs find it hard to fill their ranks.
And we could always produce more.

So select for that instead, that's how you make immigration beneficial, not flooding the market with people who have no skills and will end up unemployed due to a lack of jobs because too many are coming.

- - - Updated - - -

And why should Europe become less homogeneous? I don't see the point.

There's no point in keeping it homogeneous either.

[Deleted]

So select for that instead, that's how you make immigration beneficial, not flooding the market with people who have no skills and will end up unemployed due to a lack of jobs because too many are coming.

- - - Updated - - -



There's no point in keeping it homogeneous either.

Yeah it's not like it's up to us now is it. This is a crisis, not your regular inflow we've been managing for the lastv75 years plus.

[Nitro Fun]

Yeah it's not like it's up to us now is it. This is a crisis, not your regular inflow we've been managing for the lastv75 years plus.

It is up to you whether you give them permission to stay or not.

[Deleted]

It is up to you whether you give them permission to stay or not.

Of course. That is irrelevant to the point we were making though. We can turn this in our favour, with a bit of political will.

[Mayhem]

no that would be math.
The European welfare state cannot deal with large scale immigration - most certainly not of the non productive kind -
You will either end migration, or you will have to end the welfare state.
Those are your two options. - oh and this is not getting into the problems of de-homogenizing society.
@Forogil To me its "Nachtwächterstaat"
And its not what i suggest, its what will have to happen unless we close the borders.

Since they are actually starting to talk about helicopter money, i doubt things will stay as they are anyway. So, chances are we can and will afford it because who would stop us?

[Deleted]

@Djalil You do realize all low level jobs are gonna be replaced between now and 20 years because of automation right? So those low educated people are gonna be nothing more than more mouths to feed by the government. Which results in tax increases for people that do work.

I guess we'll worry about that when we cross that bridge.
Can't really face today's problems with what could happen later on.
Automation will bring substantial changes to our society anyway. We need to figure out a way to make it work for us too, nevermind the few that are coming in.

[Deleted]

@Djalil
Sounds like one hell of a bridge to cross. And try explain that to the native population when the time comes. Why would you choose to let in illiterates and low skilled people if you know you already have no jobs for them, and the jobs that are available at the moment will be gone in the next 10-20 years.

You are knowingly advocating in favour of the demise of the wellfare states Europeans worked so hard for to create.

[Noradin]

@Djalil
Sounds like one hell of a bridge to cross. And try explain that to the native population when the time comes. Why would you choose to let in illiterates and low skilled people if you know you already have no jobs for them, and the jobs that are available at the moment will be gone in the next 10-20 years.

You are knowingly advocating in favour of the demise of the wellfare states Europeans worked so hard for to create.

People have thrown that claim around for nearly two hundred years now. It hasn't come to pass, yet, and it likely never will.

[Ebalina]

Is there a lack of people to fill those jobs in the country already or are they gonna mess the situation up for people who already live there?

No there isn't lack of people.
But the problem is the so called high ranked Europe people are above cleaning toilets or working construction.

[Deleted]

@Djalil
Sounds like one hell of a bridge to cross. And try explain that to the native population when the time comes. Why would you choose to let in illiterates and low skilled people if you know you already have no jobs for them, and the jobs that are available at the moment will be gone in the next 10-20 years.

You are knowingly advocating in favour of the demise of the wellfare states Europeans worked so hard for to create.

OK let's be clear. Automation, if we don't organise, will affect us way more than migrants as migrants KEEP BEING a minority in our society.
That is a huge discussion we should be having in society as it requires a great deal of preparation and reorganisation of society as we know it.

Plus, once again, I'm not "choosing" to let them in. I'd rather not have them in. But we live in a state of law and laws are clear on what we have to do and the rights those people have WHILE WAITING for their asylum claim to be processed.
I wish we didn't destroy Libya Iraq and Syria so we wouldn't have this huge issue to handle but... we can't go back in time can we.

- - - Updated - - -

No there isn't lack of people.
But the problem is the so called high ranked Europe people are above cleaning toilets or working construction.

Yeah that happens as education levels increase. Nothing shocking really.

[Yriel]

There's plenty of jobs that don't require education or skills. We just need to set up for it and make sure it's done properly.

But even that doesn't work.
They are not able to do basic jobs like salesman in a bakery or cleaning or warehouseman. I don't know how much simpler jobs you can do here. And even if they find some job they could do they don't stay there because they want higher payments.
To a degree that is a problem with german unemployed, too, many don't want to work 40 hours a week in a shitty job to only get 200 Euro more than doing nothing all day and living from hartz4.
The problem is that if a german doesn't accept those jobs they get their welfare money cut but no one dares to cut the migrants money, in fact many journalists even defend them when they don't want to work for minimum loans.

[Deleted]

But even that doesn't work.
They are not able to do basic jobs like salesman in a bakery or cleaning or warehouseman. I don't know how much simpler jobs you can do here. And even if they find some job they could do they don't stay there because they want higher payments.
To a degree that is a problem with german unemployed, too, many don't want to work 40 hours a week in a shitty job to only get 200 Euro more than doing nothing all day and living from hartz4.
The problem is that if a german doesn't accept those jobs they get their welfare money cut but no one dares to cut the migrants money, in fact many journalists even defend them when they don't want to work for minimum loans.

The system needs to be upgraded. Work plus minimal support even. Some plan to include them in the market.
We need meritocracy in there as well. If people have education and can prove it, they get to step ahead, otherwise they could get assigned to the lower market.
Now that doesn't mean building ghettos near factories and people living shit lives segregated from everyone else.
It's our job as a society to make sure even the low paid have a chance to access the best schools, good services and same opportunities.
That is not only in light of this crisis. This is how society protects its citizens.

[Runenwächter]

The more I read about the migrant crisis, the less I see it as a crisis and the more I see it as a good opportunity for Europe to become less homogeneous.

The negative effects of having open borders are mostly moot in my opinion and I think Europe benefiting from this crisis in the end (as long as they don't spend too much money on it) will potentially allow countries which need immigrants but are too stubborn to let them in (China, Korea, Australia, Japan) reconsider their positions on the issue.

That is an uneducated opinion if I have ever heard one.

- - - Updated - - -

Not at all. Immigration is beneficial if you know how to make it work. That's what the European budget commission clearly states.

I find GoblinP claim insulting to common sense.
He is so afraid of a threat only he and his kind perceives, that he is willing to throw away all that we have built in the last 150 years.
This is actually worrying.

Who is this "we" and please specify on the "he and his kind". Worrying about nefarious forces working to unravel the fabric of society needs some fleshing out, otherwise this isnt exactly an original idea.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, that's a non-answer if I've ever seen one.

That quote isnt even on the level of make america great again and that is a slogan made for campaigning.

- - - Updated - - -

There's no point in keeping it homogeneous either.

Cultural diversity is fine as long as all players adhere to the laws and overarching cultural consensus. If you have players who dont do that, whos values and practices go against the established social and cultural progress, who try to demand special priviledges and their numbers grow larger by the day, "diversity" becomes less of a benefit but more of a burden, even a threat to inner peace and prosperity.

To simplify: Diverse societies are more successful and productive, homogenous societies are more peaceful. You need a certain level of peacefulness to be productive. So no, being diverse is not always a benefit in and of itself.

Setting diversity in and of itself as an end goal is harmful.

- - - Updated - - -

It is up to you whether you give them permission to stay or not.

The illegals from mexico have stayed for decades, even generations. What makes you think this will be any different? Getting them to leave the country is much more difficult then stoping them at the border. If we had functioning border control not only on the outer borders of the eu, but the inner borders as well.
But if you read up on this thread you will see who was adamant that border control is "inhumane" and would totaly not work.

[Forogil]

You do realize that this mistranslation could´ve caused the problem of djalil not understanding what goblinp was talking about? Apparently that wasn´t your initial thought. You rather jumped his throat for asking, because that´s totally reasonable.

No, I considered that and rejected it. Thus my conclusion is correct, and reasonable.

A search engine have problems understanding that "night watcher" meant "night-watchman", most human don't have that problem - even if some might correct you.

The explanation is thus that he lacks knowledge of that - and many other things. Similarly as you demonstrated a basic misunderstanding of human rights a few pages back.

Some people react to being shown to be ignorant and/or wrong by throwing a fizz - whereas others, such as you and Endus, just don't respond directly.

You´d rather question his movie taste (seriously) despite him saying that movie was horrible.

Seems that the point about the movie went over your head - similarly as human rights.

The obscurity of the movie "night watcher" indicates that the horrible movie likely had another name like "night watchman", "night call" , "night at the museum", or ...
And if someone associate only "night watcher" state with the movie "night watchman", it is safe to assume that they don't know about "night-watchman state".

That's why the obscurity of "night watcher" movie was relevant - since it likely was a different movie - refuting your "just mistranslated" idea.

the part about that it´s actually called night-watchman state is somewhat relevant, not really since goblinp explained it in a post prior to your babble.

GoblinP posted it at the same time - so I didn't see it, and the correct translation "night-watchman" was still missing.

And I am unsure what you mean with "babble" in that "sentence" of yours.

[Deleted]

That is an uneducated opinion if I have ever heard one.

- - - Updated - - -


Who is this "we" and please specify on the "he and his kind". Worrying about nefarious forces working to unravel the fabric of society needs some fleshing out, otherwise this isnt exactly an original idea.

- - - Updated - - -



That quote isnt even on the level of make america great again and that is a slogan made for campaigning.

- - - Updated - - -


Cultural diversity is fine as long as all players adhere to the laws and overarching cultural consensus. If you have players who dont do that, whos values and practices go against the established social and cultural progress, who try to demand special priviledges and their numbers grow larger by the day, "diversity" becomes less of a benefit but more of a burden, even a threat to inner peace and prosperity.

To simplify: Diverse societies are more successful and productive, homogenous societies are more peaceful. You need a certain level of peacefulness to be productive. So no, being diverse is not always a benefit in and of itself.

Setting diversity in and of itself as an end goal is harmful.

- - - Updated - - -


The illegals from mexico have stayed for decades, even generations. What makes you think this will be any different? Getting them to leave the country is much more difficult then stoping them at the border. If we had functioning border control not only on the outer borders of the eu, but the inner borders as well.
But if you read up on this thread you will see who was adamant that border control is "inhumane" and would totaly not work.

"We" as in Europeans. "He and his kind" as in this people lead by some sort of irrational fear that a couple of million people spread over a year is going to bring down our society.

[Forogil]

But even that doesn't work.
They are not able to do basic jobs like salesman in a bakery or cleaning or warehouseman.

Additionally Portugal have been begging to get some of the asylum seekers/refugees to help in their farm sector - as part of the EU-redistribution. (Similar work as some Mexicans do in the USA; so even skipping the language skills.) They were unable to fill the spots last I checked.

[Deleted]

Total nonsense.

No sadly not.

Immigration is still beneficial and so will this refugee crisis, with the right system in place.

No - Just looking at the economical aspects of it, this wave of immigration, is not, and will never be beneficial.
The vast majority is illiterate, uneducated, and unproductive.

Going back centuries because of what stormfront tells you is so paranoid. You're literally going to shoot your own foot because of an imaginary threat.

There are 60 million refugees - this is then ignoring just the luck seekers coming to Europe - Our welfare systems cannot sustain that - its very trivial economics.
Sweden took in 150 000 people - Our counties have to raise taxes by 2% points at minimum - and its only going to get worse.
The low skill, low production jobs to employ them simply do not exist.

And this is still not getting into the reduced acceptance of taxation that comes from a de-homogenised society - the very foundation of the welfare states Europe have is the largely homogenized nation states.
Replacing the nation state with the multiethnic hodgepodge of MENA and rest of africa wont end well.

- - - Updated - - -

Not at all. Immigration is beneficial if you know how to make it work. That's what the European budget commission clearly states.

yes if they worked it would be beneficial - but they are illiterate and uneducated, so they have no jobs.

I find GoblinP claim insulting to common sense.

My statements are in line with reality - I didnt make it, i just live in it.

He is so afraid of a threat only he and his kind perceives, that he is willing to throw away all that we have built in the last 150 years.
This is actually worrying.

And you are deluded - and you also didn't get what i said apparently.

- - - Updated - - -

By bringing back production in europe.

A Chinese factory worker earns like 10 dollars a day.
I mean sure if we can treat them like slave labour then it could work too.

- - - Updated - - -

There's no point in keeping it homogeneous either.

Actually there is - On virtually any metric you chose you are better of homogenous rather than not.

[Deleted]

No sadly not.

No - Just looking at the economical aspects of it, this wave of immigration, is not, and will never be beneficial.
The vast majority is illiterate, uneducated, and unproductive.

There are 60 million refugees - this is then ignoring just the luck seekers coming to Europe - Our welfare systems cannot sustain that - its very trivial economics.
Sweden took in 150 000 people - Our counties have to raise taxes by 2% points at minimum - and its only going to get worse.
The low skill, low production jobs to employ them simply do not exist.

And this is still not getting into the reduced acceptance of taxation that comes from a de-homogenised society - the very foundation of the welfare states Europe have is the largely homogenized nation states.
Replacing the nation state with the multiethnic hodgepodge of MENA and rest of africa wont end well.

- - - Updated - - -


yes if they worked it would be beneficial - but they are illiterate and uneducated, so they have no jobs.

My statements are in line with reality - I didnt make it, i just live in it.
And you are deluded - and you also didn't get what i said apparently.

- - - Updated - - -



A Chinese factory worker earns like 10 dollars a day.
I mean sure if we can treat them like slave labour then it could work too.

This wave of immigration is by no means standards. We can easily deal with normal influx based we did in the past 70 odds years.
We're not getting 60 million refugees.
That would be unsustainable.
We can increase taxes on products from China and incentives to start producing in here again. It's not actually fair that our products are built under slavery. We can easily make profits and be constructive if we build at home.
Long term project, but can be done.
There's work for the uneducated. If they don't accept it they move on.

[Mayhem]

And I am unsure what you mean with "babble" in that "sentence" of yours.

Don´t worry, that just went over your head.

[Deleted]

Additionally Portugal have been begging to get some of the asylum seekers/refugees to help in their farm sector - as part of the EU-redistribution. (Similar work as some Mexicans do in the USA; so even skipping the language skills.) They were unable to fill the spots last I checked.

of course not they came here for a better life - not to work the same shit jobs they have back home.
Also the EU has welfare payments.

- - - Updated - - -

This wave of immigration is by no means standards. We can easily deal with normal influx based we did in the past 70 odds years.
We're not getting 60 million refugees.

Have you looked at populatio projections for africa? this is not an aberation this is the new normal.

That would be unsustainable.

This is unsustainable. - And the past history is not comparable.

We can increase taxes on products from China and incentives to start producing in here again.

Ah protectionism, golden.