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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Beej View Post
    That is no excuse and not an acceptable reason to commit genocide. If anything she could have asked the allies for help. This is called politics.
    What genocide?


    Quote Originally Posted by Lastlivingsoul View Post
    You just answered your own question half a dozen times OP.
    The OP's post contains half a dozen betrayals by Sylvanas? Wat?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  2. #22
    Deleted
    Hmm backstabbing like Garithos?

    Hmm you could say against Arthas........maybe the dwarven fleet in Howling Fjords. Not too familiar with the books but in the one where Garrosh stands trial she tried to kill one of her sisters to convert her to the forsaken.

    Those which might be it in a broad sense. Not following orders and using taboo Scourge tactics with the plague and raising former alliance citizens forsaken killed and under mindcontrol.

  3. #23
    Banned Highwhale's Avatar
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    Considering how the warchief authority works Sylvanas could not say no to the order but she could request that she handles the invasion herself. Sylvanas did not even want to invade and Garrosh just used the invasion to get the port AND to weaken/kill the forsaken. If she refused Garrosh has the authority to kick her out of the horde or even worse and Sylvanas requires the horde in order to keep the forsaken and herself alive.
    Yea and Uther was commanded to purge the Stratholme by Arthas - future king. And Arthas did disband his order. What you try to prove?

    do you honestly believe the alliance would help the forsaken?
    Nope but:

    1 - They could warn Alliance about Garrosh's plans on Gilneas.

    2 - If they was purged from Horde for this i'm sure Alliance didn't attack them considering the information forsaken gave to Alliance.

    Garithos, that's basically it.
    And he deserved it because he was a selfish asshole.
    And who is Sylvanas - high judge and executor? Yes Garithos was jerk but it doesn't make him being betrayed and killed.

  4. #24
    My negative impressions of Sylvanas are the following:

    - Even though Garrosh was Garrosh, the way she acted against honor was a bit weak. Not too bad nonetheless.

    - Not sure if that's supposed to be a major point of hers, but the way she reacted towards Lorthemar during the Siege of Orgrimmar was really nasty. My personal worst moment of hers.

    - The way she acted at War Crimes made her look like an interesting tormented character, however, her solitary mentality went against her current Warchief persona.

    - Her blackmailing of Belves pre-Wrath shows that she has the potential to abuse her seat in a Garrosh-like manner.

    - Finally, the Koltira incident makes her a decisive leader, but makes me like her less as a character overall.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by deviantcultist View Post
    My negative impressions of Sylvanas are the following:

    - Even though Garrosh was Garrosh, the way she acted against honor was a bit weak. Not too bad nonetheless.

    - Not sure if that's supposed to be a major point of hers, but the way she reacted towards Lorthemar during the Siege of Orgrimmar was really nasty. My personal worst moment of hers.

    - The way she acted at War Crimes made her look like an interesting tormented character, however, her solitary mentality went against her current Warchief persona.

    - Her blackmailing of Belves pre-Wrath shows that she has the potential to abuse her seat in a Garrosh-like manner.

    - Finally, the Koltira incident makes her a decisive leader, but makes me like her less as a character overall.
    People with honor usually die 1st and are weak in the face of annihilation/destruction/death she is a survivor 1st and foremost.

    Sylvanas is the bitch/lich queen we need stop trying to paint her a dark overseer of doom for the horde.
    She is the cure the horde needs to become the horde not what Thrall was doing .

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    You know, I'm a big Sin'dorei-fanboy and even on that thing I had to agree with her.
    Being in the Horde is a mutual agreement.
    You cannot just be on the receiving end of this, it's not like the EU. You also have to contribute when things get messy.
    Going AFK while Arthas is attacking Azeroth is just a shitty thing to do.
    I agree with you. I mentioned the point as a reference to how ruthless she can be, even if she has a point.

  7. #27
    Blowing the horn on broken shore.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebalina View Post
    People with honor usually die 1st and are weak in the face of annihilation/destruction/death
    That heavily depends on the setting. In WoW, honorable characters like the Draenei have triumphed by being this way. Therefore, if characters can be both strong and honorable, then someone without honor is seen in a much worse way.

  9. #29
    Titan Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highwhale View Post
    Yea and Uther was commanded to purge the Stratholme by Arthas - future king. And Arthas did disband his order. What you try to prove?
    The difference, is that Arthas did not gave the same option to Uther, than Garrosh did, Garrosh basicaly said: "Do as i command or you will no longer be part of the Horde and be hunted down by us" (The Forsaken could not fight in any way or form the Horde and the Alliance)


    Nope but:

    1 - They could warn Alliance about Garrosh's plans on Gilneas.
    That makes no sense, i will warn my enemy and get myself killed?

    2 - If they was purged from Horde for this i'm sure Alliance didn't attack them considering the information forsaken gave to Alliance.
    The Alliance and the Forsaken have been in war for a long time, they would have taken the chance to reclaim Lordaeron/

    And who is Sylvanas - high judge and executor? Yes Garithos was jerk but it doesn't make him being betrayed and killed.
    No, she back stabbed him, and that was bad, but not like the Forsaken:

    a) Care

    B) Had much options -He wanted to Forsaken out of Lordaeron, not like the Forsaken had anywhere else to go-

  10. #30
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highwhale View Post
    1 - They could warn Alliance about Garrosh's plans on Gilneas.
    Why? Gilneas left the Alliance. Sylvanas should have joined with Gilneas and formed her own faction with blackjack and hookers.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Why? Gilneas left the Alliance. Sylvanas should have joined with Gilneas and formed her own faction with blackjack and hookers.
    They'd lack in Goblin department to achieve that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  12. #32
    I've always thought the Forsaken are the weakest race in the Horde - and as such the most desperate.

    Hence Slyvanas has done so much to keep them safe and really pursue her/their own goals - in the end they don't belong anywhere... they're literally monsters.

    Lots of "enemy of my enemy is my friend" in Warcraft. Forsaken hate the Alliance/humans most for rejecting them, join the Horde. Lich King threatening all life? Allow Death Knights to join. Burning Legion threatens all life? Allow Demon Hunters to join.

    So far, nothing has really back fired on them... so far.

    They are also REALLY limited by the narrative because it's a video game.

    They can't have the Forsaken join the Alliance, or leave the Horde etc. or do anything crazy that might actually be awesome for the story, but for the game play that's a big nope.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by deviantcultist View Post
    That heavily depends on the setting. In WoW, honorable characters like the Draenei have triumphed by being this way. Therefore, if characters can be both strong and honorable, then someone without honor is seen in a much worse way.
    The Dreanei home world was destroyed i do not really see how they triumphed.

  14. #34
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebalina View Post
    The Dreanei home world was destroyed i do not really see how they triumphed.
    Argus wasn't destroyed.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Argus wasn't destroyed.
    Yeah pilliged and they had to run away from it, the world is there but what ? They cant live there.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    Blowing the horn on broken shore.
    sounds like you are an alliance player and don't know what happened on the horde side.

  17. #37
    She backstabbed Arthas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxos View Post
    When you play the game of MMOs, you win or you go f2p.

  18. #38
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Beej View Post
    That is no excuse and not an acceptable reason to commit genocide. If anything she could have asked the allies for help. This is called politics.
    I think you don't know what's a genocide. And nice job bringing real world ethics into World of Warcraft.

  19. #39
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Sylvanas directly misled and betrayed Garithos, although he's not really the most empathetic of people in the first place. She betrayed Lor'themar by first assisting Silvermoon recover from the Scourge devastation and then demanding the depleted Blood Elven forces assist the Forsaken in Northrend to return her "favor." You could argue she betrayed Garrosh by disobeying his commands not to use the Plague in Gilneas, but like Garithos he's not entirely acting in the Forsaken's interest either (if Sylvanas' Val'kyr-inspired visions are to be taken at face value). She betrayed Koltira by imprisoning him for his "weakness" in brokering a truce.

    You could also say she has betrayed the Forsaken in essence by seeing them as nothing but tools in her own plans for vengeance against the Lich King, and then after his demise as a bulwark against the Void (e.g. her visions from the "Edge of Night" short story).
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  20. #40
    Titan Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Sylvanas directly misled and betrayed Garithos, although he's not really the most empathetic of people in the first place.
    True
    She betrayed Lor'themar by first assisting Silvermoon recover from the Scourge devastation and then demanding the depleted Blood Elven forces assist the Forsaken in Northrend to return her "favor."
    Kind of, yeah (i don't know if it shall be call "betrayal" but i'm pretty sure that Lor'themar felt betrayed, at least his trust got betrayed.

    You could argue she betrayed Garrosh by disobeying his commands not to use the Plague in Gilneas, but like Garithos he's not entirely acting in the Forsaken's interest either (if Sylvanas' Val'kyr-inspired visions are to be taken at face value).
    That's the best way too put it IMHO (Its something that can, and will, be debated by both sides)
    She betrayed Koltira by imprisoning him for his "weakness" in brokering a truce.
    Betrayed? no, never, its easier to say that it was the other way around, it just was ruthless of her, even if she had a point.

    You could also say she has betrayed the Forsaken in essence by seeing them as nothing but tools in her own plans for vengeance against the Lich King, and then after his demise as a bulwark against the Void (e.g. her visions from the "Edge of Night" short story).
    I don't totally agree with this but you had a point i would put it more like...

    "You could also say she has betrayed the Forsaken in essence by seeing them as nothing but tools in her own plans for vengeance against the Lich King, and then killing herself and coming back mainly for the fear of eternal damnation -justified but still- (e.g. her visions from the "Edge of Night" short story)."

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