wait... draenor = a huge resource?

[Soeroah]

on the whole multi-universe / single legion thing, can someone explain this to me...


when the legion destroy a planet, is it destroyed accross all universes? as we go back in time before the legion really did their work, the fate of draenor is different in universe A and B, so does that mean there are two azeroths A and B? If there are two azeroths, would both have a world soul, or would this make azeroth omni-dinemnsional like the legion / pantheon?

I don't believe there's anything yet to indicate that destroying a planet in one universe destroys them in all universes. In the Illidan book a demon hunter saw visions of the same planets being destroyed in a multitude of ways, and when Outland was destroyed we still got access to a Draenor that hadn't been.

[Deleted]

I don't believe there's anything yet to indicate that destroying a planet in one universe destroys them in all universes. In the Illidan book a demon hunter saw visions of the same planets being destroyed in a multitude of ways, and when Outland was destroyed we still got access to a Draenor that hadn't been.

so that goes to the 2nd part of my post, does azeroth exist in multiple universes, or just the main one? if it does exist in multiple, do all have a world soul, or just the main one?
I hate all this multiuniverse stuff, maks it even harder to understand that the legion is the same through out all universes.

[Aquamonkey]

I still get the same question over and over again -- is there an alternate Azeroth to go with the alternate Draenor?
Yes!

Are we going to see it?
I would never say never, but it's not planned right now.

I'm kind of wondering what that place looks like. I imagine it's really interesting.
Absolutely, and this is a precedent here, that there are alternate worlds across the multiverse. There is a multiverse, right, I mean it's something we bounced around the previous Caverns of Time stuff sort of -- like we kind of skirted it -- and we embraced it with this one. Like this is what we're talking about here, right. And if you're a true time travel nerd, you understand that's the only way time travel works anyway. (Source)

[PepperjackJig]

We're in Universe A. Universe A moves along Timeline A. Timeline A can get changed to affect what happened in Universe A.

WoD's Draenor was on Universe Q. Close enough to Universe A to have a lot of similarities but far enough away that things were different. Timeline Q can get changed to affect what happened in Universe Q.

Universe A tunneled a hole to Universe Q where the events of WoD played out.

How about we call ourselves the mongooses? The fighting mongooses, that's a cool team name

[Mic_128]

How about we call ourselves the mongooses? The fighting mongooses, that's a cool team name

Man, whenever I have to teach sport I always split the kids into Group A and Group 1. They don't argue and I get a Furutama reference!

[Qualia]

on the whole multi-universe / single legion thing, can someone explain this to me...

when the legion destroy a planet, is it destroyed accross all universes? as we go back in time before the legion really did their work, the fate of draenor is different in universe A and B, so does that mean there are two azeroths A and B? If there are two azeroths, would both have a world soul, or would this make azeroth omni-dinemnsional like the legion / pantheon?

I don't believe there's anything yet to indicate that destroying a planet in one universe destroys them in all universes. In the Illidan book a demon hunter saw visions of the same planets being destroyed in a multitude of ways, and when Outland was destroyed we still got access to a Draenor that hadn't been.

It wasn't flat out stated such, but it was implied / hinted in "Illidan". The AU Draenor isn't an example of that being wrong, due to two reasons (1) Most importantly, it wasn't destroyed by the Legion (this is important), but by Ner'zhul recklessly opening multiple portals instead and (2) We haven't seen present AU Draenor / Outland yet. Who knows, maybe it's destroyed. The one we visited was past AU Draenor.

As of what was stated in "Illidan", I might be misunderstand / misinterpreting it, so let's look at it together

A titanic vision smashed into his brain. This time he saw not just one universe but a near infinity of them, a complex fractal structure, where new worlds were born each minute from the decisions made a heartbeat before.
Everywhere the Burning Legion marched, destroying world after world. Every death narrowed the range of possible worlds, till eventually all the multitude of possibilities narrowed to but a few.

That was when Vandel - the main character DH of the book - received his vision of the multiverse. Admittedly, Blizzard tend to use the term "worlds" with both meanings of "planets" and "universes", sometimes even with different meanings between two sentences in the same book even. However, I believe the "world" here was referring to "universe". Why? Because Vandel was talking about about the multiverse consisted of near infinity of universe, and that new "world" is born everytime a decision is made. What makes more sense? A planet is born because of a random action, or an alternate universe? I think the later, at least I can't think of any story in which action of normal mortals can create a new planet.

Now to the next line - Vandel saw that "every death narrowed the range of possible worlds, till eventually all the multitude of possibilities narrowed to but a few". So how would it work if what the Legion destroyed in one universe does NOT affect other universes? How would destroying some universes / planets lower the range of possible universes from near infinity to a few? We have a near infinite amount of them at first place, and every actions can create a new one! If the Legion can't affect other universes while destroying one universe / planet, shouldn't the number of universes just kept increasing instead? We only have one Legion, they may jump from one universe to another, to the past, present and such, but there is just one (under premise that "One Legion" statement still is canon - and I don't think there is anything in game saying it isn't). I can only guess that, due to some cosmic mechanic, destroying something in one universe (or maybe just the main universe - ours), would affect its fate in other alternate universe. Like, for example: Khariel, son of Vandel - killed by demon in year X (it was during the 3rd War, yes?) - which would make him always die in year X in every alternate universe; As Vandel put it "He saw his child die in an infinity of different ways, and in every one of those possible worlds, he was powerless to prevent it.". Noted that he didn't even say that the child always died to demon (can you die to demon in an infinity different way?), but this isn't important, maybe I'm reading too deep into it.

So all in all, it's just a theory at the moment. That's why I usually use "it could be" or "it's possible" when I addressed this. However, I haven't see any contradiction with current lore yet, and it'd explain some current issue well (why the Legion keep focusing in our MU, how'd they expect to realistically cleanse the multiverse with only a single Legion, what happened to Vandel's child). If there is any other theory / explanation for what was stated in "Illidan", I'm all ears.

[Soeroah]

The way I interpret that statement is with each world they destroy they are preventing any 'offshoots' of that world from coming to fruition, thus limiting the number of possibilities. Personally I don't think there's an infinite number of timelines, only possibilities, but if the Legion destroys Draenor in Year -30 that means no more Draenors past that point in the tree. They're pruning the branches rather than cutting down the trunk.

Of course, we don't know exactly how the timelines work, so there could be something more to it.

[Prokne]

The whole "demons have only one life across every universe" thing is just stupid and impossible. There are an infinite number of alternate universes, especially if only one event needs to change to make an alternate universe. So there are infinite chances that a demon is killed in some universe. Therefore every demon has an almost certain chance of being dead.

If this is some way to explain that we killed the MU Archimonde in HFC, the better way to explain it would be that Guldan summoned the MU Archimonde because the worlds were connected. Or just have us kill the AU Archimonde, its not like anything else we did in WoD made any difference.

- - - Updated - - -

The way I interpret that statement is with each world they destroy they are preventing any 'offshoots' of that world from coming to fruition, thus limiting the number of possibilities. Personally I don't think there's an infinite number of timelines, only possibilities, but if the Legion destroys Draenor in Year -30 that means no more Draenors past that point in the tree. They're pruning the branches rather than cutting down the trunk.

Of course, we don't know exactly how the timelines work, so there could be something more to it.

Maybe. But if you can go back to Draenor from an alternate timeline before the year the legion destroys it then there are infinite possibilities to travel to a previously destroyed timeline and revive it.

[Deleted]

so uhm

what is the difference between multiple timelines and multiple universes?

-well of eternity instnance: our universe, true timeline
-end time instance: our universe, different timeline
-durnholde: our universe, true timeline
-revised war of the ancients: our universe, true timeline
-unrevised (original, non caverns of time version) war of the ancients/well of eternity/durnholde: our universe, different timeline.
-draenor: different universe, same true timeline untill they merged.

that correct?

[Qualia]

The whole "demons have only one life across every universe" thing is just stupid and impossible. There are an infinite number of alternate universes, especially if only one event needs to change to make an alternate universe. So there are infinite chances that a demon is killed in some universe. Therefore every demon has an almost certain chance of being dead.

I wouldn't say it's impossible. We don't really know how the cosmic and demon works. At least, there are certain theories (which might or might not be true) to explain about the single Legion thing. Infinite possibility does NOT mean anything and everything can happen. I've read stories in which something / some events are just impossible to exist even in the infinite possibility multiverse(s).
Plus, it's not that "demons have only one life across every universe". There is one demon of each across every universes (i.e no AU demon Archimonde, no AU demon KJ, etc.). They can die and lose their life as much as they can, as long as it's not in the Nether or places utterly saturated with Nether energies

so uhm

what is the difference between multiple timelines and multiple universes?

-well of eternity instnance: our universe, true timeline
-end time instance: our universe, different timeline
-durnholde: our universe, true timeline
-revised war of the ancients: our universe, true timeline
-unrevised (original, non caverns of time version) war of the ancients/well of eternity/durnholde: our universe, different timeline.
-draenor: different universe, same true timeline untill they merged.

that correct?

Yeah, seems correct.

[Christan]

the nether and the legion transcend all realities....
there is no "AU legion" or whatever.

okay...lets say there's one legion, it won't split into two...
legion from the past, comes forwards to fight with legion in our time. and then goes back into the past, live their lives for however long, and then fights with the legion of the past....

same thing applies whether there is one transcendental legion or not.

[Raetary]

okay...lets say there's one legion, it won't split into two...
legion from the past, comes forwards to fight with legion in our time. and then goes back into the past, live their lives for however long, and then fights with the legion of the past....

same thing applies whether there is one transcendental legion or not.

that makes not even sense, you cant just bring people from the past into the present for a long amount of time without changing the timeline.
the legion wouldnt be there in the present without the legions influence in the past.

[Christan]

that makes not even sense, you cant just bring people from the past into the present for a long amount of time without changing the timeline.
the legion wouldnt be there in the present without the legions influence in the past.

from what i understand, the legion is good at winning.
they WILL do what it takes.

if they see us screwing with time, then they will also...and how does that not make sense? 1. goes into future, fights. 2. fights in current time 3. 1 goes back to past, to set things in motion...

or did you miss the part where i said after the fighting they could/would go back into the past? just because there's only one of them throughout alternate universes, doesn't mean two or more can be brought in from different times, as long as they go back where they belong.
and as long as they are fighting on azeroth, and not the nether, they can die all they want to and it won't prevent a single one of them from making it back into the past to "set things in motion"

ofc i am not saying it would happen, ofc not, azeroth would be crushed, heroes or not. but it's a possibility blizzard has brought to the table with them changing lore to their own benefit. maybe they'll play it off as the legion was to arrogant to prepare properly, who knows.
but that doesn't take away from what i said being possible, if not plausible if in a real war (what would happen-would we play with time also, or let only our enemies play with time?)

[steelballfc]

The reference to a "main" timeline is to our own universe. If *our* Timeline was ruined or destroyed (Say someone goes back and stops the Alliance from forming, everybody dies) all the alternate timelines would be ruined. That wouldn't stop all the other parallel universes out there from existing (Such as WoD Draenor.

but what if all other existing Universes are copy from the main one "like DC comic universe" and that there is Azeroth Prime " aka Earth prime", which is also our universe, if this Prime timeline was destroyed everything else would

[Deleted]

The funny thing is, we don't even know anymore if we are the main timeline, or if there is even one, though I lean to there being one on the account of that is one of the two ways that changing the time line works.

You either:

1- Change an event in the past, affecting the future.

or

2- Change an event in the past, creating a new timeline where the result of your change exists separately with your time line remaining unchanged, even in the past.

We are subject to the second I think.

First event would create a temporal paradox. If you change an event -- like prevent an accident, or kill someone -- in the past, then the timeline that caused you to go there in the first place would not exist, in which case you would not travel into the past in the first place...

[Deleted]

First event would create a temporal paradox. If you change an event -- like prevent an accident, or kill someone -- in the past, then the timeline that caused you to go there in the first place would not exist, in which case you would not travel into the past in the first place...

This is the case in certain franchises. In others, changing the events in a timeline DOES affect the future of that said time line without erasing it. I can bring you three cases from popular franchises, but I am afraid those will count as spoilers, especially that one of them is as new as 2016/2017.

At best, what you said my first event would result into an either/or situation -- before Warlords, you couldn't know for sure in Warcraft, since both scenarios happened in different franchises.

However, as we finally learned about Warcraft's Multiverse and time travel, and how they work finally in Warlords, it's definitely the case of the second event here.

[Qualia]

from what i understand, the legion is good at winning.
they WILL do what it takes.

if they see us screwing with time, then they will also...and how does that not make sense? 1. goes into future, fights. 2. fights in current time 3. 1 goes back to past, to set things in motion...

ofc i am not saying it would happen, ofc not, azeroth would be crushed, heroes or not. but it's a possibility blizzard has brought to the table with them changing lore to their own benefit. maybe they'll play it off as the legion was to arrogant to prepare properly, who knows.
but that doesn't take away from what i said being possible, if not plausible if in a real war (what would happen-would we play with time also, or let only our enemies play with time?)

Bringing a past Legion to present, or present Legion to the past wouldn't really help the Legion to fight against us though.

Assuming that they manage to create the connection between the present and the past without the Bronze Dragonflight detecting and preventing it, they'd still have more or less the same issues they are now. The Legion is not weaker than us both power-wise and number-wise. Their problem is just that summoning a powerful demon or open a portal strong enough for one to come through takes a lot of power. Fortunately, they don't have infinite power to open and maintain portals forever. Thus, the Legion is always bottle-necked at the summoning step - the top demons are powerful, and they have many many minions, but they simply never managed to get their full might here. Illidan's vision showed that the demons who ever got on Azeroth is just a tiny part of the whole, that they still have many many other armies as powerful. Luckily, only so many minor demons can go through a portal at a time, and summoning a powerful being is hard.

So, bringing a past Legion to present doesn't help. They would still require portals & summon. One past demon coming through the portal at a time, is one less present demon coming through that same portal at that time. One powerful past demon being summoned to Azeroth at a certain time, is one less powerful present demon can be summoned at that same time. In the end, it doesn't really change things much. They might consider that if they ever manage their full might upon us and still lose, but that hasn't happened yet.

[steelballfc]

This is the case in certain franchises. In others, changing the events in a timeline DOES affect the future of that said time line without erasing it. I can bring you three cases from popular franchises, but I am afraid those will count as spoilers, especially that one of them is as new as 2016/2017.

At best, what you said my first event would result into an either/or situation -- before Warlords, you couldn't know for sure in Warcraft, since both scenarios happened in different franchises.

However, as we finally learned about Warcraft's Multiverse and time travel, and how they work finally in Warlords, it's definitely the case of the second event here.

as I remember Chrome did change the timeline in Quest when we helped little-ghost girl, which didn't effect the future
but in WOTA the people who gone to the past did effect the future as the char like Tyranda did remember Rhonin and other's in the war.
does this make sense !?!

[Konteil]

but we killed him two separate times, so the legion is the same one, but different timelines cause things like, there being two different archimondes. so why can't there be two separate legions, past and present, brought into out current timeline by screwing with dimensions...maybe there will be in fighting between the two legions...who conquers who... maybe we get to kill sargeras twice?

until he is killed in the nether he will keep respawning. all demons have to be killed in the nether in order to be truly dead. eventuall we are going to have to go there to end it once and for all im thinking

[Deleted]

as I remember Chrome did change the timeline in Quest when we helped little-ghost girl, which didn't effect the future
but in WOTA the people who gone to the past did effect the future as the char like Tyranda did remember Rhonin and other's in the war.
does this make sense !?!

Well, this is one of many inconsistencies in Warcraft's lore, and an indirect result of having a variety of writers who don't coordinate on details. I think we have seen quite the few examples of these especially recently (with Jaina, for instance.)