Prepared vs Demon Blades

[Shirofune]

See the thing is, we don't all agree that DB is the worst talent ever created ever, so please don't make hyperbolic statements like that. Just from reading all these threads on DB vrs prepared there are just as many people that like DB as people that hate it.

Also, please explain how prepared is so much harder than DB? Even with DB, I am still using VR in my rotation, in addition I have to be much more careful to not over-cap on fury. The change with DB is that instead of just spamming demons bite till I have enough fury to CS spam I will work in rotations of GCD lock through FR/VR>Glaive>CS wait for the now banked DB charges to proc, FR/VR>CS spam rinse and repeat, it is a little slower rotation yes, but most definitely not the face roll idiot drool fest you people are claiming it is; it is about planning ahead instead of just spur of the moment button presses.

I don't understand how having to monitor your fury and charges to make sure you don't over-cap and dumping fury at right time is seen as hugely easier than spamming one button over and over until you have the fury you need to hit another button. And at the end of the day, that is what we are debating, prepared or not, most DH will use momentum and they will therefore be doing VR in their rotation anyways.

You can't overcap Fury with DB. Charges are banked when you hit the Fury cap afaik or they don't proc at all. Anyway, it's the same scenario as not having DB. If you're fury capped and not using Chaos Strikes is your problem. Demon Blades cannot proc in a GCD that is used by a skill.

How is it harder? Come on. Prepared requires you to position yourself in such way you don't leave the boss hitbox when using VR. Demon Blades requires you to... nothing, just autoattack. Banking happens automatically if you've enough fury to use skills. If you don't use them, you're not banking them.

So you just said it. Demon Blades makes the rotation easier and you're forced to take another skills to fill for GCD, 'cause otherwise the rotation is dull, boring and more importantly, you can't bank charges. I don't know why you're using VR with a Demons Blade rotation and no Momentum, guess it's because of the same, so much free GCDs.

You're saying I don't take a look at my fury and plan ahead of time just because I don't use Demons Blade? Come on. Let me repeat again, you can't overcap fury 'cause when you're at 100, charges are banked. And even if they didn't, if you're not using Fury consumers at 100 Fury it is YOUR trouble and it's something even a non-Demon Blades build has to face. Not using skills = DPS loss.

And yes, we will use VR anyway. Let me repeat again. I wouldn't care about DB existence if it didn't help so much Momentum. The bank system needs to go. It is not fair I've to use 3-4 Demon's Bite (= 3-4 GCD) to get to 100~ Fury from 0 and a Demon Blades build can do it in one GCD because of the bank system. I guess Blizz didn't realize the time save that gives. If you're out of fury you should wait for the same procs I have to do to generate it, lol.

[Brakandaren]

You can't overcap Fury with DB. Charges are banked when you hit the Fury cap afaik or they don't proc at all. Anyway, it's the same scenario as not having DB. If you're fury capped and not using Chaos Strikes is your problem. Demon Blades cannot proc in a GCD that is used by a skill.

How is it harder? Come on. Prepared requires you to position yourself in such way you don't leave the boss hitbox when using VR. Demon Blades requires you to... nothing, just autoattack. Banking happens automatically if you've enough fury to use skills. If you don't use them, you're not banking them.

So you just said it. Demon Blades makes the rotation easier and you're forced to take another skills to fill for GCD, 'cause otherwise the rotation is dull, boring and more importantly, you can't bank charges. I don't know why you're using VR with a Demons Blade rotation and no Momentum, guess it's because of the same, so much free GCDs.

You're saying I don't take a look at my fury and plan ahead of time just because I don't use Demons Blade? Come on. Let me repeat again, you can't overcap fury 'cause when you're at 100, charges are banked. And even if they didn't, if you're not using Fury consumers at 100 Fury it is YOUR trouble and it's something even a non-Demon Blades build has to face. Not using skills = DPS loss.

And yes, we will use VR anyway. Let me repeat again. I wouldn't care about DB existence if it didn't help so much Momentum. The bank system needs to go. It is not fair I've to use 3-4 Demon's Bite (= 3-4 GCD) to get to 100~ Fury from 0 and a Demon Blades build can do it in one GCD because of the bank system. I guess Blizz didn't realize the time save that gives. If you're out of fury you should wait for the same procs I have to do to generate it, lol.

Read my post again please. I specifically said using momentum as most DH's will. The positioning argument of prepared is not an argument at all. Again, Momentum is the highest and most fun talent on that tier, I and probably most other DH's who care about really raiding are going to take it, this means we will ALL be using VR so we ALL need to worry about the positioning for VR(which isn't very hard), just as ALL DH's period will be using FR in their rotation, so arguing that prepared is harder because of positioning is false and illogical, the difference is in how you generate fury that is it, one is spamming a button, the other is banking charges and then proc'ing them, two different styles of play, neither extremely harder or easier than the other.

Secondly at what point did I say I was sitting at fury cap and not spending moves, I actually said the exact opposite, that you build fury then spend it all down to 0 and then wait on banked charges to happen again. So good job making crap up and straw manning the hell out of that argument. And yes the 0-full jump can happen occasionally(which is one of the most fun parts of the build btw; that feeling of dumping it all and then having a lucky string of procs) but it isn't always that way and it isn't instant, the banked charges only happen 2 at a time and only when a proc would naturally happen, spend all the banked charges and now you are sitting there building more the normal way. If it worked the way you implied it would still be highest DPS and it would be by a ridiculous margin. Also, please link where you saw that if a charge happens at max fury it is banked and not proc'd, that is counter to everything I have ever read so I am truly curious if it works that way.

So again in the end it all comes down to how you want to build the fury, DB or demons bite, that is the only major difference. You already have prepared simming higher in 90% of situations than DB, why do you need to have DB also destroyed? You don't want to use it? Don't; not only is using prepared what you want, its the "better" talent. The only reason to use DB is if you WANT to.

[Schizoide]

Momentum is the best performing talent on that tier, but it's not a particularly powerful talent, coming in at 4.0% DPS assuming perfect execution. Sounds decent, right? But reading through the APL required to get that 4%, it's clearly not possible for a human to follow that priority.

My guess is that taking Momentum and trying to maximize usage of the 4s Momentum window for your highest damage abilities, you'll beat Nemesis by 1-3% total DPS. And that ain't nothing; if you're in a serious progression guild you'll do it. The alternative is to still take Momentum, but not try to maximize the 4s window, which will realistically put you 0-1% total DPS over taking Nemesis and is much more applicable to AE/cleave.

So even if you don't plan to micromanage the 4s Momentum window, you should still take the talent because you MUST use Fel Rush rotationally. If you hate using Fel Rush rotationally, you simply shouldn't main a Demon Hunter-- it's worth a whopping 18% DPS.

As for Prepared vs. Demon Blades, they sim so close that it truly doesn't matter, even when micromanaging Momentum.

[ChakanDH]

You can't overcap Fury with DB. Charges are banked when you hit the Fury cap afaik or they don't proc at all.

Unless there has been some sort of change, this is false. It's part of what makes running demon blades require some management - if you aren't paying attention you can quickly hit your fury cap - and why it's not the "lol autoattack to win" talent that the uninformed think it is.

[Shirofune]

Unless there has been some sort of change, this is false. It's part of what makes running demon blades require some management - if you aren't paying attention you can quickly hit your fury cap - and why it's not the "lol autoattack to win" talent that the uninformed think it is.

Refer to the second part of my post. That's no different than spamming Demon's Bite with full fury. Both builds face this. Doesn't really require much attention to start using skills when you're close/at the Fury cap. It's actually easier with Demon Blades since the AA timer is 2.6 seconds

[Dubyo]

Demon Blades is meh, just feels wrong to not have a gainer attack

[Deleted]

Demon Blades is meh, just feels wrong to not have a gainer attack

Fel Rush is a "gainer attack"...

[Tekkommo]

When first playing the DH on beta, I was disgusted with the DB talent.

When getting to end game and playing momentum, I started to like it.

[Mamut]

When first playing the DH on beta, I was disgusted with the DB talent.

When getting to end game and playing momentum, I started to like it.

Yeah, alot of people judge demon blades on the 100 lvl DH when its really boring because theres not much you can do during combat. At 110 gameplay change alot so some people may enjoy demon blades more.

[Lucrece]

Only reason people like demonblades with momentum is because both demon's bite and fel rush are under GCD so tying fury generation to autoattacks doesn't obstruct your fel rush usage like demon's bite would.

All in all, I hope they rebalance that tier so momentum isn't the best talent, being forced to waste mobility/survival cooldowns to DPS on top of the travel issues related to latency is pretty crummy and part of why they removed the Chi Torpedo animation cancelling playstyle out of monks.

[Schizoide]

Only reason people like demonblades with momentum is because both demon's bite and fel rush are under GCD so tying fury generation to autoattacks doesn't obstruct your fel rush usage like demon's bite would.

It really isn't Momentum-specific, as you Fel Rush rotationally with or without Momentum. People like Demon's Bite if they don't enjoy being GCD-locked. At L100 DB leads to much more idle time than L110, so people don't like that either. That's all there is to it.

[Azszora]

I like demon blades when I'm doing group content, but for soloing I need that builder. Parried auto attacks won't proc demon blades.

[Deleted]

Yes, like I said earlier in the thread, Enhance also has a no-cooldown free builder (Rockbiter) and a talent that changes it (Boulderfist). But rather than removing the Rockbiter button entirely, Boulderfist adds a cooldown and 2 charges. So while the end effect is similar, adding free GCDs to Enhance, they did it by adding gameplay to the spec. You need to decide when to use Boulderfist, and can bank a charge for emergency resource generation. IMO, Demon Blades should work very similarly. For example:

I really like your idea.

[Deleted]

I don't care if I can rank just by smashing my cat on the keyboard with Demon Blades, I'll never use it. I specced into it on beta without reading the description and I thought there was something wrong with ElvUI because I put it on my bar and the button wasn't doing anything. Then I read the description and couldn't figure out why anyone would ever take it.

This is the the best post I've ever read on Demon Blades, thank you!

[v1perz53]

You know, I actually dislike Demon Blades and Prepared equally (in that they are both fine but I wish I could pick a third option), they both do something bad. I wish demon blades was more like Boulderfist for Enh, but I see why it needs to exist, it makes things a little too passive tho and I'm not a huge fan. Prepared tho does something else that I really hate, and takes a cool movement ability and makes it rotational for DPS, meaning you have one less actual movement tool. Part of the appeal of DH is that you can move places faster, and having to use Vengeful Retreat out plus Fel Rush/Felblade back in for DPS ruins a lot of that.

Too bad Demonic Appetite is pretty crappy or I'd take it as default.

[Schizoide]

Prepared is actually optional, it's a small DPS gain over the alternatives when taken with Momentum but not a big deal unless you're seriously min/maxing.

In contrast, Fel Rush and Felblade (if you take it, which you shouldn't as Bloodlet is much more damage) must be used rotationally at all times.

[Deleted]

You know, I actually dislike Demon Blades and Prepared equally (in that they are both fine but I wish I could pick a third option), they both do something bad. I wish demon blades was more like Boulderfist for Enh, but I see why it needs to exist, it makes things a little too passive tho and I'm not a huge fan. Prepared tho does something else that I really hate, and takes a cool movement ability and makes it rotational for DPS, meaning you have one less actual movement tool. Part of the appeal of DH is that you can move places faster, and having to use Vengeful Retreat out plus Fel Rush/Felblade back in for DPS ruins a lot of that.

Too bad Demonic Appetite is pretty crappy or I'd take it as default.

This 1000x.

I've always said it's completely awful design on Blizzard's part to make the movement abilities rotational.

They explicitly said this when they took chi torpedo out of Monk's rotation. Yet here they are going back on their philosophy.

Calling it now that Blizzard will completely rework the momentum talent and fel rush.

- - - Updated - - -

Prepared is actually optional, it's a small DPS gain over the alternatives when taken with Momentum but not a big deal unless you're seriously min/maxing.

In contrast, Fel Rush and Felblade (if you take it, which you shouldn't as Bloodlet is much more damage) must be used rotationally at all times.

If you're not min maxing then everything is optional. For serious mythic raiders though, optimal>optional. Demon Blades is (supposedly) the most optimal in this tier, therefore many of us will take it.

[Schizoide]

Rotational movement isn't necessarily poor design. IMO, the poor design is making it mandatory so players can't opt to talent out of it for a minor DPS loss.

Not using Fel Rush rotationally is an ~18% DPS loss. That's what I mean when I say mandatory. If you don't use Fel Rush, you essentially suck. Not picking Prepared and Momentum is a much smaller (~5%) DPS loss.

[Vanyali]

If you're not min maxing then everything is optional. For serious mythic raiders though, optimal>optional. Demon Blades is (supposedly) the most optimal in this tier, therefore many of us will take it.

It's not anymore except under very specific conditions.

[Azszora]

I have no problem using Fel Rush as part of my dps rotation, but Vengeful Retreat seems clunky. I prefer Demon Blades.