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  1. #121
    With all those treads being made about RtB I figured here would be a good place to ask this ( sorry if this was answered before): I get that fishing for 2+ buffs is the way to play but my problem is with how many combo points? Do you always fish for those buffs ONLY if you have 5(6) or you roll asap?
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  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Khas View Post
    With all those treads being made about RtB I figured here would be a good place to ask this ( sorry if this was answered before): I get that fishing for 2+ buffs is the way to play but my problem is with how many combo points? Do you always fish for those buffs ONLY if you have 5(6) or you roll asap?
    5-6 cp's because if you reroll with 1-2 and you get the roll you want you only will have like 15secs of it vs 54sec.

  3. #123
    Bloodsail Admiral Kalador's Avatar
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    @Aethys256 i know this thread is 7.0 but looking at legion do you think we could see a build with MoS, Nightstalker, DS and DFA where you would alwayse finality finisher in stealth for bonus dmg be cometitive or subtefuge for extra SS will alwayse be on top ?? in theory this would scale better with mastery ?

  4. #124
    Yeah, I'd really like to see how the three specs are compared to eachother for Legion at 110.

    I'm completely lost on what to go. Across multiple forums/discussions, I see many still saying Sin/Outlaw. I really want to know the numbers for Sub, because for me knowing whether that's #1, 2, or 3 for PvE DPS will drastically change what I go first, since we have two great PvP specs now (Outlaw/Sub) instead of just one.

    It's odd really, because I enjoy Sin/Sub PvE, but Outlaw/Sub PvP, so you can see where I'm stuck on what to go first.

  5. #125
    Sin/Outlaw until you got a Legendary (ideally Sub Boots, maybe Insigna) or more gear.
    Then Sub is better than Sin basically (and Outlaw aswell).

    Tbh, I'll prob play Outlaw until I got more gear (since even in ST it's better than Sin or almost the same with way more potential for AoE) to play Sub.
    You'll have numbers by the start of the next week, we (Skasch & Me) currently building something that runs a TON of simulations in a lot of situations to pinpoint pros/cons of the spec with differents parameters.

    Kalador : I don't think so, Subterfuge is way better than 12% dmg modifier (it's not 50% in Subtlety). And Finality is only 30%. Maybe later or if they change again Nightstalker. (Or with DfA when we'll have enough energy)
    Last edited by Aethys256; 2016-08-18 at 07:41 AM.
    Rogue SimC Maintainer since 6.2.
    As a Rogue, the best thread on MMO-C to talk about Legion SimC is this one, it will be a pleasure for me to discuss with you there.
    I'm also the maker of AethysRotation, an addon to help you doing an optimized rotation (especially for Rogues).
    Finally, you can retrieve a lot of Rogues simulations results on our Resources Website.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Aethys256 View Post
    Sin/Outlaw until you got a Legendary (ideally Sub Boots, maybe Insigna) or more gear.
    Then Sub is better than Sin basically (and Outlaw aswell).

    Tbh, I'll prob play Outlaw until I got more gear (since even in ST it's better than Sin or almost the same with way more potential for AoE) to play Sub.
    You'll have numbers by the start of the next week, we (Skasch & Me) currently building something that runs a TON of simulations in a lot of situations to pinpoint pros/cons of the spec with differents parameters..
    Interesting, looking forward to the numbers.

    In terms of what I'd like to play, it'd be Sub > Outlaw >>> Sin, so I'm hoping that Outlaw ends up just straight being better than Sin, and I wouldn't mind Sub surpassing it eventually. My three questions to you are:

    1) At what point do we stop focusing on (for example) the Outlaw artifact and start saving up for the Sub daggers so it can surpass and predominantly be used instead?

    2) Pardon the ignorance, it's been a long hiatus on my end, but how exactly do the new legendaries work? I did some quick searching and read that we'll only be able to equip one piece for the beginning of Legion, but where do they come from? A comment on wowhead said "world drops", but I've seen it can drop from bosses as well?

    3) Should these sims from someone on the official forums just be ignored? They seem to be confident this is how it'll be in early-Legion: http://i.imgur.com/DEpWjLu.png Tbh, it doesn't look correct at all. I just can't see such a huge discrepancy between the specs, let alone the classes.

    Thanks for your input and efforts in all this!
    Last edited by Laurix; 2016-08-18 at 08:15 AM.

  7. #127
    Bloodsail Admiral Firatha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurix View Post
    Interesting, looking forward to the numbers.

    In terms of what I'd like to play, it'd be Sub > Outlaw >>> Sin, so I'm hoping that Outlaw ends up just straight being better than Sin, and I wouldn't mind Sub surpassing it eventually. My three questions to you are:

    1) At what point do we stop focusing on (for example) the Outlaw artifact and start saving up for the Sub daggers so it can surpass and predominantly be used instead?

    2) Pardon the ignorance, it's been a long hiatus on my end, but how exactly do the new legendaries work? I did some quick searching and read that we'll only be able to equip one piece for the beginning of Legion, but where do they come from? A comment on wowhead said "world drops", but I've seen it can drop from bosses as well?

    3) Should these sims from someone on the official forums just be ignored? They seem to be confident this is how it'll be in early-Legion: http://i.imgur.com/DEpWjLu.png Tbh, it doesn't look correct at all. I just can't see such a huge discrepancy between the specs, let alone the classes.

    Thanks for your input and efforts in all this!
    1 Not a clue I plan on going very hard on my subs ones and getting everything other then end dump thing then going to outlaw

    2 Thats pretty much right at first its one and at some point they will let us use more and for where they come from they said they come from pretty much everything from normal mobs anywhere at 110 to 5man bosses and mythic+ chests and I dont know about instanced raid bosses.

    3 Those are old ass numbers for new ones check here https://simc.skasch.com/ as a note for those sims at this time the sub_19m one is done with its best legendary at dps which are its boots where as the muti one is not useing its best in the Assassination_18m run
    Last edited by Firatha; 2016-08-18 at 08:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    No they don’t learn and evidence suggests that. Behavior also doesn’t change and if there is any hope of learning behavior has to change.

    Not meaningless declarations easy to say after he regrets offering up evidence he’s a racist.

  8. #128
    Quick question; is the new 'refreshable' attribute the new 'dot.xxx.remains' that was used before?

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Firatha View Post
    1 Not a clue I plan on going very hard on my subs ones and getting everything other then end dump thing then going to outlaw

    2 Thats pretty much right at first its one and at some point they will let us use more and for where they come from they said they come from pretty much everything from normal mobs anywhere at 110 to 5man bosses and mythic+ chests and I dont know about instanced raid bosses.

    3 Those are old ass numbers for new ones check here https://simc.skasch.com/ as a note for those sims at this time the sub_19m one is done with its best legendary at dps which are its boots where as the muti one is not useing its best in the Assassination_18m run
    Just going off those sims you linked, it looks like Sub is going to crush the other two specs by T19M, and it looks like Outlaw/Sin are fairly close, with Sin nudging out Outlaw at the sacrifice of solid AoE. Am I reading those correct?

    If so, looks like I may just start off with Outlaw for dungeon spam, but solely focus on Sub and ignore Sin entirely.
    Last edited by Laurix; 2016-08-18 at 08:51 AM.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurix View Post
    Just going of those sims you linked, it looks like Sub is going to crush the other two specs by T19M, and it looks like Outlaw/Sin are fairly close, with Sin nudging out Outlaw at the sacrifice of solid AoE. Am I reading those correct?

    If so, looks like I may just start off with Outlaw for dungeon spam, but solely focus on Sub and ignore Sin entirely.
    My plan aswell. Even though people in the assassination thread keep saying that sims show Assassination scaling better.

  11. #131
    Bloodsail Admiral Firatha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurix View Post
    Just going of those sims you linked, it looks like Sub is going to crush the other two specs by T19M, and it looks like Outlaw/Sin are fairly close, with Sin nudging out Outlaw at the sacrifice of solid AoE. Am I reading those correct?

    If so, looks like I may just start off with Outlaw for dungeon spam, but solely focus on Sub and ignore Sin entirely.
    I wouldnt say crush with because the the differnce is only 3-4k with legendarys I would never advise starting outlaw just for dungeon spam

    EDIT remember the numbers are scewed because the gear in default profile for sub has its best legendary where as default one for SIn dosnt as of right now
    Last edited by Firatha; 2016-08-18 at 08:49 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    No they don’t learn and evidence suggests that. Behavior also doesn’t change and if there is any hope of learning behavior has to change.

    Not meaningless declarations easy to say after he regrets offering up evidence he’s a racist.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firatha View Post
    I wouldnt say crush with because the the differnce is only 3-4k with legendarys I would never advise starting outlaw just for dungeon spam

    EDIT remember the numbers are scewed because the gear in default profile for sub has its best legendary where as default one for SIn dosnt as of right now
    Why woudl you not advice going outlaw for dungeon spam?

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nupomaniac View Post
    Why woudl you not advice going outlaw for dungeon spam?
    Just pick a spec and dump everything into it. Its not like the other 2 specs are worthless in 5mans all your doing is filling a different roll as sub as a groups main ST instead of being the groups main AOE
    Last edited by Firatha; 2016-08-18 at 08:56 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    No they don’t learn and evidence suggests that. Behavior also doesn’t change and if there is any hope of learning behavior has to change.

    Not meaningless declarations easy to say after he regrets offering up evidence he’s a racist.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Firatha View Post
    I wouldnt say crush with because the the differnce is only 3-4k with legendarys I would never advise starting outlaw just for dungeon spam

    EDIT remember the numbers are scewed because the gear in default profile for sub has its best legendary where as default one for SIn dosnt as of right now
    Wait, I was comparing T19H and T19M numbers. Sin doesn't have legendary for either? If it's not too far behind without legendary than Sin still might not be as bad as I thought.

    If you don't mind me asking, how come you're focusing on Sub so hard? Are you like me and it's a preference thing, or are you that confident it's going to be ST king between the three specs?
    Quote Originally Posted by Firatha View Post
    Just pick a spec and dump everything into it. Its not like the other 2 specs are worthless in 5mans.
    In a realistic world, this is what I'd love to do, but unlike Hybrids who are 100% certain on a specific dps spec (Windwalker, Ret, SPriest etc), we're a pure DPS class with 3 specs are fairly similar (at least to me). As I stated earlier, my biggest concern is how good the catch up mechanic will be for off-spec artifact weapons if we chose "incorrectly" and the spec ends up being meh.
    Last edited by Laurix; 2016-08-18 at 08:57 AM.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurix View Post
    Wait, I was comparing T19H and T19M numbers. Sin doesn't have legendary for either? If it's not too far behind without legendary than Sin still might not be as bad as I thought.

    If you don't mind me asking, how come you're focusing on Sub so hard? Are you like me and it's a preference thing, or are you that confident it's going to be ST king between the three specs?
    Mainly because I like it the most and Im confident its going to end up better due to scaling looking at the scale factors

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurix View Post
    In a realistic world, this is what I'd love to do, but unlike Hybrids who are 100% certain on a specific dps spec (Windwalker, Ret, SPriest etc), we're a pure DPS class with 3 specs are fairly similar (at least to me). As I stated earlier, my biggest concern is how good the catch up mechanic will be for off-spec artifact weapons if we chose "incorrectly" and the spec ends up being meh.
    Ya thats the only problem as for us having 3 spec that are fairly similar everything is still pointing towards combat being THE aoe spec and shit ST and sub/sin being close but not as massive as a difference compared to now we just have to hope they dont do something that swings it huge in one way
    Last edited by Firatha; 2016-08-18 at 09:12 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    No they don’t learn and evidence suggests that. Behavior also doesn’t change and if there is any hope of learning behavior has to change.

    Not meaningless declarations easy to say after he regrets offering up evidence he’s a racist.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firatha View Post
    Mainly because I like it the most and Im confident its going to end up better due to scaling looking at the scale factors



    Ya thats the only problem as for us having 3 spec that are fairly similar everything is still pointing towards combat being THE aoe spec and shit ST and sub/sin being close but not as massive as a difference compared to now we just have to hope they dont do something that swings it huge in one way
    Its just that aoe is very important in dungeons and especially mythic plus. I know that some of the affixes wont let you aoe much, but most will. And trash will be the most important effeciency factor.

    We can at least agree that Outlaw>Sub>>>>>Assassination for dungeons. Having to first apply poisons and bleeds before being able to do damage is pretty bad for rapid target switching

  17. #137
    Bloodsail Admiral Firatha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nupomaniac View Post
    Its just that aoe is very important in dungeons and especially mythic plus. I know that some of the affixes wont let you aoe much, but most will. And trash will be the most important effeciency factor.

    We can at least agree that Outlaw>Sub>>>>>Assassination for dungeons. Having to first apply poisons and bleeds before being able to do damage is pretty bad for rapid target switching
    Yes AOE is going to be a big factor for mythic plus but you will still always need a high ST in the group alot of high stuff I saw had 2 strong AOEs and a sin rogue which of course couldnt really keep up with the Dks doing crazy AOE but when a priority target needed to die or they got to a boss the rogue would just melt them
    My rogue RIP 2004-2019
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    No they don’t learn and evidence suggests that. Behavior also doesn’t change and if there is any hope of learning behavior has to change.

    Not meaningless declarations easy to say after he regrets offering up evidence he’s a racist.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firatha View Post
    Yes AOE is going to be a big factor for mythic plus but you will still always need a high ST in the group alot of high stuff I saw had 2 strong AOEs and a sin rogue which of course couldnt really keep up with the Dks doing crazy AOE but when a priority target needed to die or they got to a boss the rogue would just melt them
    True but sin was nerfed and outlaw atm does extremely well on ST. A nerf to outlaw's ST might be incoming but i dont think we will be looking at WoD ST combat

  19. #139
    Bloodsail Admiral Firatha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nupomaniac View Post
    True but sin was nerfed and outlaw atm does extremely well on ST. A nerf to outlaw's ST might be incoming but i dont think we will be looking at WoD ST combat
    They will have to do something about that closeness I dont see them leaving it keeping up with the other 2 specs ST then totally destroying them in AOE I also dout they will take it as far as WOD ST.
    My rogue RIP 2004-2019
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    No they don’t learn and evidence suggests that. Behavior also doesn’t change and if there is any hope of learning behavior has to change.

    Not meaningless declarations easy to say after he regrets offering up evidence he’s a racist.

  20. #140
    sorry but im pretty new...how can i read the linked sims?
    need to look only T19M right?

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