Affliction Nurfed

[Tya]

just watched a rank 1 lock on beta last night. stacking UA's were hitting for 450k and the dispel hit for 5mill. id say lock is fine

As a healer, UA dispels barely even move my hp bar. Calling your bluff.

[Seneca]

I think many of you are missing the point that the solution to deal with our melee overlords is not to make 'locks overlords too but to nerf the melee overlords to begin with. It's not warlocks which are weak (if they are, post nerf, in the first place) but a few (if not all) melee specs being broken.

Locks can't do shit with 2 melees on them? What caster can as of now?

Most melee specs have more mobility/uptime power than the most mobile caster spec (moonkins/amages based on the context).

Most melee specs have so many (pseudo)interrupts that it is also possible to suppress caster specs with multiple schools of magics (dpriests/moonkins for example).

I mean, just to make an example, before you are able to cast against a WW monk (let alone all the pushback) you have to:

- juke his Kick(15 sec CD, 4 sec interrupt duration)
- deal with Paralysis (15sec CD, pseudointerrupt)
- deal with Leg Sweep (45 sec CD, 5 sec stun duration)
- deal with FoF stun (24sec CD, 2 sec stun duration dr'ed with LS, or he can just LS your healer and FoF you)
*are you still alive? Congratz.
- juke his kick again, because it is up again.
- deal with Paralysis, because it is up again too.
* still alive? I'm impressed.
- you can cast, you have a few secs available before FoF is back again to stun you for 4 secs. Ofc, this is pretending there's no another melee on you.

Like, how could this shit go over alpha, let alone beta (let alone pre-patch, let alone, supposedly, live lol)?

How am I supposed to cast a 2.25sec arcane blast as an arcane mage, whose has only 1 school and dies in 2 secs (among many other things)?

I would like Holinka to play an arcane mage against a melee cleave and show me how I am supposed to get 1 AB off, just one, in the whole arena.


To conclude, what blizzard should try to do, imho, is not make 'locks able to endlessly tank 2 melees (or 2 of everything) but simply nerf melees.

[Torais]

As a healer, UA dispels barely even move my hp bar. Calling your bluff.

Depends on stacks.

[Deleted]

Depends on stacks.

It's not stacks, it's stacks + extending the UA out to retarded durations with RnD.

This requires the warlock to ramp up to 5 shards which takes a while, spam UA's uninterupted, then channel drain life uninterupted and without the target just running away from a class with zero mobility CDs, AND the healer being retarded enough to dispel this instead of healing through it until it had dropped to a lower duration.

Yes, you can hit retards who don't know how to play around it very hard, but anyone with a brain can deal with RnD UA on beta. It also turns affliction into a single target laser as opposed to a rot dotter since it needs to tunnel the UA target to extend it rather than dotting up other players.

People acting like the UA on beta is overpowered obviously aren't looking at what the warlock loses and what hoops they need to jump through to accomplish it.

[BannedForViews]

I don't get why you think warlocks, out of all classes should be able to tank multiple melee. They can effectively tank 1 player. You expect them to tank two players, like tank specs do. Yes, they are "tank casters", but not in terms of being balanced around, but in terms of gameplay. It's your gameplay, you don't run away from danger, you suck it up and fight through it.
Warlock doesn't need to escape, that's why it's important to keep his spells in one category, so you actually can shut them down. It would be OP if you were to pummel a warlocks drain life at his 100% health and 10% shield, just for him to keep standing and attacking you while still gaining shield back (which is basically, wasting an interrupt). Yeah, chain CC sucks, but that's why DRs are there. If your opponents combine their multiple CC to kill you - you've got outplayed. That's it.

And i want to repeat - warlocks are not supposed to 2v1 melees just because they don't have mobility. They are tanky enough to take beating for about a minute against a melee, if by that time warlock couldn't kill a melee who has almost (comparable to warlock) zero self-healing, that's LTP issue. I've yet to see an affliction warlock reliably losing to a (read, 1v1) melee. When you say "but the game is not balanced around 1v1s!" it goes both ways. If it's 3v3 and for some dumb reason its 2 melee, and warlock gets trained - two of warlocks allies have all the time in the world to do anything.

Jeez, it pisses me off more than one random warrior newbie on RBG raid who blamed blizzard for a loss because "i'm in a tank spec i'm not supposed to die, but i died to two a rogue and a feral anyways"

You are not understanding me at all. I am going to make some claims that shouldn't be controversial.

Every class should have at least a reasonable ability to 1v1 another class
Every class should have the ability to escape a fight where the odds turn against them, i.e. 2v1 or similar. This is not to say they should escape, but have the chance.
Every class should be able to effectively fight a 2v2 with a healer vs another comp with either a healer or 2 dps.

The last may be controversial, but it is what i firmly believe, ever since i started this game and ran the worst comp possible in wrath, shadowpriest/resto shaman. You should have a chance.

As it stands, warlocks are very good at the first, but utter shit at the second. If they aren't going to be good at the second then it is my belief they have to be made better to handle 2 at once. It was this way earlier, if not overtuned, but as blizz always does, they nerve with a sword instead of a scalpel. Where warlocks could have slowly been tuned into place, they cut them off pretty hard. They still do lots of damage, they still rape 1v1, but when you start to train one, he can't do a whole lot.

I also think warlocks are not very good at the third atm. They can be healed yes, but their damage output is small when being sat on.

Disagree with me if you want, that is your right, but that is all I have to say on it.

[hellar]

As a healer, UA dispels barely even move my hp bar. Calling your bluff.

Go watch maldiva on twitch. when you pump 8 UA's into someone and get a 30 sec long UA its gonna 1 shot a healer.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not stacks, it's stacks + extending the UA out to retarded durations with RnD.

This requires the warlock to ramp up to 5 shards which takes a while, spam UA's uninterupted, then channel drain life uninterupted and without the target just running away from a class with zero mobility CDs, AND the healer being retarded enough to dispel this instead of healing through it until it had dropped to a lower duration.

Yes, you can hit retards who don't know how to play around it very hard, but anyone with a brain can deal with RnD UA on beta. It also turns affliction into a single target laser as opposed to a rot dotter since it needs to tunnel the UA target to extend it rather than dotting up other players.

People acting like the UA on beta is overpowered obviously aren't looking at what the warlock loses and what hoops they need to jump through to accomplish it.

you dont need to dump all 5 at once, catching someone out in the open while you have interrupt immunity isnt that hard. once you get your UA duration stack past a certain point, it doesnt even become that hard to keep it up.

[Cempa]

I think many of you are missing the point that the solution to deal with our melee overlords is not to make 'locks overlords too but to nerf the melee overlords to begin with. It's not warlocks which are weak (if they are, post nerf, in the first place) but a few (if not all) melee specs being broken.

Locks can't do shit with 2 melees on them? What caster can as of now?

Most melee specs have more mobility/uptime power than the most mobile caster spec (moonkins/amages based on the context).

Most melee specs have so many (pseudo)interrupts that it is also possible to suppress caster specs with multiple schools of magics (dpriests/moonkins for example).

I mean, just to make an example, before you are able to cast against a WW monk (let alone all the pushback) you have to:

- juke his Kick(15 sec CD, 4 sec interrupt duration)
- deal with Paralysis (15sec CD, pseudointerrupt)
- deal with Leg Sweep (45 sec CD, 5 sec stun duration)
- deal with FoF stun (24sec CD, 2 sec stun duration dr'ed with LS, or he can just LS your healer and FoF you)
*are you still alive? Congratz.
- juke his kick again, because it is up again.
- deal with Paralysis, because it is up again too.
* still alive? I'm impressed.
- you can cast, you have a few secs available before FoF is back again to stun you for 4 secs. Ofc, this is pretending there's no another melee on you.

Like, how could this shit go over alpha, let alone beta (let alone pre-patch, let alone, supposedly, live lol)?

How am I supposed to cast a 2.25sec arcane blast as an arcane mage, whose has only 1 school and dies in 2 secs (among many other things)?

I would like Holinka to play an arcane mage against a melee cleave and show me how I am supposed to get 1 AB off, just one, in the whole arena.


To conclude, what blizzard should try to do, imho, is not make 'locks able to endlessly tank 2 melees (or 2 of everything) but simply nerf melees.

I think its far worse, x1 melee can shut down a lock ..

On my Outlaw I have a free 4sec Incap. on a 10sec CD .. I have Kick on a 15sec CD I have a ranged Stun on a 20sec CD .. I have a perma ranged snare .. I have RNG burst from ok'sh to FUQN INSANE .. As a Warlock my answer is a 3min CD that allows free casting EXCEPT lock gets Gouge+Stun and that's 9sec while the 3min CD lasts 8sec HAHA

Consider Affi Legion mechanic for doing damage .. Its about stacking UA and then refreshing through Life Drain .. x1 Outlaw can shut down stacking and pretty much any team with a brain can shut down Life Drain which is a HUGE laser beam that tells the healer HAY DO NOT DISPEL UNTIL STACKS FALL OFF .. Other wise casting Life Drain sucks the lock mana dry for no reason ..

Fact is to balance 3v3 they needed to have a lock that is a raid boss in randoms .. The WILL NEVER balance 3v3 independent of BG's (meaning they could have kept shield at 1% in 3v3 but %0.5 in randoms .. they will not go down that road because it means they can just completely separate 3v3 from the game) ..

They rather have weaker casters than weaker melee because weaker melee means in BG they become like paper ..

[Charge me Doctor]

You are not understanding me at all. I am going to make some claims that shouldn't be controversial.

Every class should have at least a reasonable ability to 1v1 another class
Every class should have the ability to escape a fight where the odds turn against them, i.e. 2v1 or similar. This is not to say they should escape, but have the chance.
Every class should be able to effectively fight a 2v2 with a healer vs another comp with either a healer or 2 dps.

The last may be controversial, but it is what i firmly believe, ever since i started this game and ran the worst comp possible in wrath, shadowpriest/resto shaman. You should have a chance.

As it stands, warlocks are very good at the first, but utter shit at the second. If they aren't going to be good at the second then it is my belief they have to be made better to handle 2 at once. It was this way earlier, if not overtuned, but as blizz always does, they nerve with a sword instead of a scalpel. Where warlocks could have slowly been tuned into place, they cut them off pretty hard. They still do lots of damage, they still rape 1v1, but when you start to train one, he can't do a whole lot.

I also think warlocks are not very good at the third atm. They can be healed yes, but their damage output is small when being sat on.

Disagree with me if you want, that is your right, but that is all I have to say on it.

Yes, that's true. And every class has reasonable ability to 1v1 another class already. Even healers and tanks.
No, that's what called homogenization. Not every class should have a free get out of jail card. Yes, rogue can just vanish+CoS and gtfo, but warlock or a warrior cannot and it's fine. Basically, you overextended or got unlucky or got gripped into bunch of melees - well, you fight for some time, then die if no help arrives, and it's fine. Just like a warrior who wasted his jump to get close to a druid only to get rooted and crapped at by someone else without an ability to hop being a pillar.
PvP is balanced around 3v3, not 2v2 or 1v1 or 2v1.

Warlocks are extremely good at 1v1. But yes, they suck at 2v1 (mostly due to lack of CC and mobility. For example, mage has easier time against 2 melee simply because AoE CC and poly being in arcane school. So when he is locked out of CC or damage - he has another form of CC at least. But literally any class struggles with winning (or, at least, holding his ground) 2v1, unless it's a tank or a healer).

That's true with every single ranged class - if you train them and force to move (or apply enough pressure for him to stop casting) - they are useless. Why warlocks should be extremely good at 1v1, being on the tank/healer level of "2v1", while also doing damage regardless of being left for free casting, or being forced to only spam dots? After all, why would you ever run as a warlock? All your PvP talents and defensive CDs imply that you stand your ground and fight. Two major defensive CDs give you interrupt immunity for gods sake

[Cempa]

Yes, that's true. And every class has reasonable ability to 1v1 another class already. Even healers and tanks.
No, that's what called homogenization. Not every class should have a free get out of jail card. Yes, rogue can just vanish+CoS and gtfo, but warlock or a warrior cannot and it's fine. Basically, you overextended or got unlucky or got gripped into bunch of melees - well, you fight for some time, then die if no help arrives, and it's fine. Just like a warrior who wasted his jump to get close to a druid only to get rooted and crapped at by someone else without an ability to hop being a pillar.
PvP is balanced around 3v3, not 2v2 or 1v1 or 2v1.

Warlocks are extremely good at 1v1. But yes, they suck at 2v1 (mostly due to lack of CC and mobility. For example, mage has easier time against 2 melee simply because AoE CC and poly being in arcane school. So when he is locked out of CC or damage - he has another form of CC at least. But literally any class struggles with winning (or, at least, holding his ground) 2v1, unless it's a tank or a healer).

That's true with every single ranged class - if you train them and force to move (or apply enough pressure for him to stop casting) - they are useless. Why warlocks should be extremely good at 1v1, being on the tank/healer level of "2v1", while also doing damage regardless of being left for free casting, or being forced to only spam dots? After all, why would you ever run as a warlock? All your PvP talents and defensive CDs imply that you stand your ground and fight. Two major defensive CDs give you interrupt immunity for gods sake

But I think warlocks are not strong at all 1v1 .. How can a lock kill a boomi 1v1? How can a lock kill any Rogue 1v1? How can a lock kill a monk 1v1? Any tank 1v1? Feral 1v1 (unless feral is really bad) .. DK 1v1? Even a really good shadow can kill a lock 1v1 ..

Heck even a Retr can 1v1 a lock if he plays smart ...

Problem is when some one tunnels a lock while the other x9 team members tunnel U!

[Seneca]

They rather have weaker casters than weaker melee because weaker melee means in BG they become like paper ..

Well an extreme amount of mobility and CC doesn't mean that melees don't die if 6 casters start attacking them in a bg all of a sudden.

Survivability =/ mobility & CC. A warrior could have Charge without any CD and they would still die in a few secs if 6 casters in a bg start to focus him (let's exclude healers for a moment).

So, giving melees many mobility and CCs ability doesn't fix their survivability issues in bg (if that's what they were trying to fix to begin with).

A solution to a potential melee survivability issue in bg, for example, could be a PvP tier 2 talent which: reduces damage taken by x% for every enemy around you up to y (capped so in 40man bgs you are not immune to damage lol).

So, if for example this talent would reduce damage taken by 3% up to 30%, it means that in 10v10 fights it accounts for a 30% damage reduction, in 3v3s arena it accounts for 9% damage reduction (supposedly worse than the other 2 talents).

Now, a few mobility and CC abilities could be removed.


//


You guys have also to consider that even if warlocks have, let's say, 0 gap openers and melees get nerfed and will have 2 gap closers rather than 3, it would mean, in a 3v3 setting, an overall buff to warlocks.

Why?

For example, with 3 gap closers, a melee can a) charge the lock with the first gap closer, b) charge and interrupt the healer who is healing the lock with the second gc, c) charge the lock again with the third gc, whose now is not taking any heal because his healer is locked out.


You have to forget a game where a warlock can do, with 2 melees on them, a PvE rotation. The game would not be balanced that way.

Take a more complex point of view. If, in a 3v3 arena, 2 melees waste all their (supposedly nerfed/reduced) resources on you (as a lock), it means that your other 2 teammates can basically free cast. Sure is if melees can dash right and left and interrupt everyone everywhere, no balance can be achieved, but that is a melee issue, not a lock issue.

In Wotlk, for example, destruction warlocks were very, very powerful, but their power lied in being able to cast a lot. Chaos Bolt and Incinerate were scary as fuck. Were they trained by melee teams? Sometimes, but at the same time that same melees could not stop his elemental shaman from freecasting lava bursts/chain lightning and getting triple kills and his holy paladin by spamming flash of light on him (the warlock). If I am not wrong, sub rogues had, like, 1 Shadow Step and 1 Sprint. It meant that wasting SS on the 'lock implied not being able to instantly interrupt the healer or the other teammates. At best they could sprint and blind the healer.


Now a sub rogue with 3x shadow dance charges can jump, like, 9 times in a row? Surely each caster seems weak against that kind of madness.

[Nopkplease]

I personally hope they don't get buffed since I don't play one and don't feel like dealing with immortal Locks spamming life drain on me.

I almost feel the same way only my main is an affliction lock, my alt is an affliction lock and if I decide to play a 3rd char in legion is going to be an ally lock since my other 2 are horde. At least they nerfed them now before legions release so all the people that were going to fotm locks find something else for legion now.

[Saverem]

I almost feel the same way only my main is an affliction lock, my alt is an affliction lock and if I decide to play a 3rd char in legion is going to be an ally lock since my other 2 are horde. At least they nerfed them now before legions release so all the people that were going to fotm locks find something else for legion now.

Wait... Your main and alt are both Affliction locks?

wut

[Deleted]

I don't know how can the people even say that the dmg of affli was insane , I want to play as a dps , not as a tank , why they dont remove dark pact and give us a good talent for the MOV SPEED TREE SPEC.

Make literally no sense to have dark pact in the same slots as demonic circle and burning rush.

Plus people don't even know how to play against affli cause half of them just do a faceroll macro and if you're not dead so is op.

Why would someone kite a class that have literally no mov speed?
Why would someone cc the lock when the dots are about to expire?
Why would someone do an opener cc on the lock cause the class have no way to avoid cc like others?
Why would SOMEONE don't expect to play with or against an AFFLI and not top dmg of the arena?
Is not like his LITERALLY dotting EVERYONE , that's take like 20-30s and then wait till the dots stack and you're able to do dmg.
Do you really expect to be first in the arena doing tunneling? OH WAIT rogue did it EVEN without the nerf of affli.

Also you can DISPELL their dmg and make him start ALL over again , who the hell let one affli cast more than 5 UA in a target?

This nerf is bad , horrible , I feel like a tank in arena and I don't want that.

Now is literally useless, the only way to play lock is the Implosion build and if not you're literally not performing well. I can't even think if I'm gonna be able to reach 2,4k this season as affli.

[Krieger]

Patch 7.0.3 Hotfixes - August 11

When Unstable Affliction is dispelled, it now deals 120% of the remaining spell damage (was 200%)

Affliction
Stat Template

Intellect: 120% (down from 155%)

So the nurfs begin ...

As it stands UA is already being dispelled and healers not caring .. Now its a clear message that dispel protection is meaningless ..

They really want melee to reign supreme and any one who poses a threat will get nurfed to the ground!

When RBG comps had a staple of 2-3 Affliction Warlocks per team, I think nerfs to the class are reasonable.

t. 2k+ Warlock alt since late Cata

[Cempa]

When RBG comps had a staple of 2-3 Affliction Warlocks per team, I think nerfs to the class are reasonable.

t. 2k+ Warlock alt since late Cata

So class balance by representation?

[jackofwind]

So class balance by representation?

No wonder ret paladins get bent over so badly all the time! They won't be able to be viable until the paladin population is greatly reduced.

[Krieger]

So class balance by representation?

I think it's a good indicator when one class is a staple in most RBG groups, and one specialization takes up 30% - 40% of the entire group, there is something going on that needs to be addressed.