Not sure which spec to focus on first for artifact weapon!

[Domixux]

I with no beta experience whatsoever would like to know which artifact could possibly be the best for PvP, as I will mainly focus on Arenas and maybe a little bit of Dungeons and Normal/HC raids. I guess Sub is strong due to the defensive artifact traits, but how does Outlow actually perform?

[Gilor]

Also the fact sub and Assa were marginally different before the nerf to assa, and it still Remains top?

I don't know where you get that from - pre exsang nerf Sub was a very long way behind Sin. The reason for the nerf was because ST Sin was pulling 20% higher than other classes never mind Sub.

It's true that sub scale better at the higher gear levels due to more fully using/scaling with all stats.

In theory that seems likely but in full T19 the sims still show Sin ahead of Sub, so that potential scaling issue is a long way in the future?

I disagree, I played both and when you get bleeds up on multiple targets your energy regen is crazy. Also, i'm not even sure people realize how hard FoN hits now. On my rogue in the beta it hits for 30k, add a rupture and deadly poison dot, and we are doing very good aoe. Now if you're talking burst 10 second aoe, compared to the other classes we are not in their league, but the first tier of raiding does not have much burst aoe, it's long cleave fights.

Yeah I think a lot of people haven't seen what AOE is like with full points in the poisoned blades artifact ability. In dungeons (with unknown quality players) I was smashing hunters and mages just with multi rupture and FoK. In raid with mythic players and full artifacts I was sitting just behind them. It may not be the best but it's substantially better than I've seen Sin do before (god knows how much it would be with the FoK increase leg cloak!)

[elfporn]

I should have formulated everything i wrote yesterday better. One of those days where not so well thought out stuff just comes flying out.
At the end of the day Assassination is what i want to play. I have always liked that playstyle with poisons and like a few of the golden artifact skills. Especially the poison pool one. Something ive wanted since Trial of the champion.

Outlaw having insane rng was the wrong words for me to use. I know its not that bad. Not after all the changes from alpha.

Sub however. Is a style i haven't enjoyed for a long long time. And the last time i played sub was back when we had the 51 talent trees. When sub had hemorrhage and ghost strikes. I just never got into the spec and as time progressed i just built up a resistance to try out. Decided to try it now in the prepatch and after going back and forth reading the rotational guides on icyveins and wowhead i ended up not liking it. And also the shadow dmg just didn't fly well with me. I know that rogues are attacking from the shadows and use the shadows to move around in many games and fictional stories. I just feel it in wow.

So for me i will go assassination first and outlaw as off spec. Sub is something i won't touch. And since i do not raid in a super strict hardcore mythic raiding guild. Im gonna go with what i enjoy over min/maxing.

Your rebuttal is accepted, good subjective reasons, it's cool, no big deal.

I used to like assassination until they swiveled to focus on bleeds and poisons take a backseat now, just don't like the entire idea, much the same as you don't like sub.

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I with no beta experience whatsoever would like to know which artifact could possibly be the best for PvP, as I will mainly focus on Arenas and maybe a little bit of Dungeons and Normal/HC raids. I guess Sub is strong due to the defensive artifact traits, but how does Outlow actually perform?

likely outlaw or sub for pvp. definitely not assassination.

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I don't know where you get that from - pre exsang nerf Sub was a very long way behind Sin. The reason for the nerf was because ST Sin was pulling 20% higher than other classes never mind Sub.



In theory that seems likely but in full T19 the sims still show Sin ahead of Sub, so that potential scaling issue is a long way in the future?



Yeah I think a lot of people haven't seen what AOE is like with full points in the poisoned blades artifact ability. In dungeons (with unknown quality players) I was smashing hunters and mages just with multi rupture and FoK. In raid with mythic players and full artifacts I was sitting just behind them. It may not be the best but it's substantially better than I've seen Sin do before (god knows how much it would be with the FoK increase leg cloak!)

The last sims i saw, outlaw and sin had their apl's finished with relics and everything, and sub did not have a finished apl at all, and that was the default apl for simcraft a day or two ago, and it was in another thread arguing the same exact thing, that sub didn't scale good enough - well it won't if the sim apl isn't completed.

Earlier sims, with neutral gear, put sub ahead at 860ilvl, not sure how long ago that was though. May have been before exsang

[soliddevil]

The last sims i saw, outlaw and sin had their apl's finished with relics and everything, and sub did not have a finished apl at all, and that was the default apl for simcraft a day or two ago, and it was in another thread arguing the same exact thing, that sub didn't scale good enough - well it won't if the sim apl isn't completed.

Earlier sims, with neutral gear, put sub ahead at 860ilvl, not sure how long ago that was though. May have been before exsang

Yes the 860 ilvl sim was before the Exsanguinate nerf, btw, care to share the last sims you are talking about?

Thanks in advance.

[Laurix]

Generally there is lack of actual numbers and theorycrafting and way too many personal opinions and napkin math. Hard to form an opinion based on that.

Is there any place like the old EJ where we can read for certain?

[billyisinehre]

Like lots of people are also doing, I'm going to be focusing on Outlaw in the beginning (up to 11) and then focusing on gaining AP for sin. That way I'll be able to spam dungeons and actually be able to contribute (other than bosses.)

I do wish I could play on the beta to get a feel for leveling and how long that will take.

Hoping someone can chime in. So by the time you're lvl 110 what would your artifact level be at?

Edit: I found a video where someone who reached 110 was at lvl 10 in their artifact. I guess there's my answer

[Smaxy]

What are other Mythic rogues planning on doing w regard to artifacts? Im thinking outlaw to 11 then going all in on Assn. You cant not play the top ST dps spec. Sin/Outlaw for t19.

Or am i underestimating sub?

[asapeazy]

I am maining a shadow priest, but i plan on having my rogue as my serious alt. I am for sure playing Outlaw, most fun spec out of all of them to be honest.

[Jarlhen]

What are other Mythic rogues planning on doing w regard to artifacts? Im thinking outlaw to 11 then going all in on Assn. You cant not play the top ST dps spec. Sin/Outlaw for t19.

Or am i underestimating sub?

You're underestimating both outlaw and sub. Assassin is not clearly the best ST spec. In fact there are sims that show Outlaw being stronger than assassin. And sub is, according to most reports, likely going to outscale both assassin and outlaw over time. However, all three specs are extremely close in terms of ST. From I've seen recently it's actually a more logical choice to go full outlaw unless you plan to change to sub after T19. Outlaw has top tier ST and top tier AoE. Assassin only has one of them and it may be lower than outlaw. Problem is no one knows for sure right now. Like someone said earlier, it's a lot of guesswork and napkin math. On top of that there may still be more buffs/nerfs coming within the next 6 weeks that can significantly alter the situation.

Personally i'm going outlaw and then sub. Assassin has nothing to offer over the two from what I've seen.

[Laurix]

You're underestimating both outlaw and sub. Assassin is not clearly the best ST spec. In fact there are sims that show Outlaw being stronger than assassin. And sub is, according to most reports, likely going to outscale both assassin and outlaw over time. However, all three specs are extremely close in terms of ST. From I've seen recently it's actually a more logical choice to go full outlaw unless you plan to change to sub after T19. Outlaw has top tier ST and top tier AoE. Assassin only has one of them and it may be lower than outlaw. Problem is no one knows for sure right now. Like someone said earlier, it's a lot of guesswork and napkin math. On top of that there may still be more buffs/nerfs coming within the next 6 weeks that can significantly alter the situation.

Personally i'm going outlaw and then sub. Assassin has nothing to offer over the two from what I've seen.

This is what I'm hoping, tbh.

I'd prefer for Sin to just stay irrelevant, since Outlaw/Sub are both good for PvP (I raid and arena), and Outlaw/Sub both can provide ST/AoE, whereas Sin is purely ST.

[Eazy]

Generally there is lack of actual numbers and theorycrafting and way too many personal opinions and napkin math. Hard to form an opinion based on that.

Exactly.

But still - I'll try Assassination. If we're going to have the same situation as we had in WoD in the last patch, where Subtlety was much better, then I'll probably go Sub or Outlaw(if it's better).

[Puffah]

Going full Outlaw just because it sims slightly higher is honestly not advisable for mythic because of the inconsistency.

What are other Mythic rogues planning on doing w regard to artifacts? Im thinking outlaw to 11 then going all in on Assn. You cant not play the top ST dps spec. Sin/Outlaw for t19.

Or am i underestimating sub?

I'll probably do the same. I'm not gonna focus on sub just because it might pass Assassin in several months.

Aethys256 is releasing his Legion spreadsheet soon. I've no real idea what to do yet

[Chasin]

Is what a member of our guild posted, tbh I was amazed that Outlaw got such high score. It was linked at Discord. So I have no clue what build/'luck' the Outlaw spec had during the sim. I might roll Sin for the sustainability and the lesser RNG, although I do think the RNG in Outlaw is also a challenge and something that makes the game more fun to play. Meaning I am not sure yet lol.
Sub is out of the choice for me, don't like the whole mechanics around the spec.

Sin or Outlaw... Someone convince me please!

[Laurix]

Going full Outlaw just because it sims slightly higher is honestly not advisable for mythic because of the inconsistency.



I'll probably do the same. I'm not gonna focus on sub just because it might pass Assassin in several months.

Aethys256 is releasing his Legion spreadsheet soon. I've no real idea what to do yet

If Sub is good for PvP and the artifact skills work in PvP though, is that something to consider? To my knowledge there is no more PvP gear, right?

I know 90% of talk here is for raiding mythic, but yeah, just curious. I'm sorta choosing based off raiding and arena.

[Puffah]

-picture-

Is what a member of our guild posted, tbh I was amazed that Outlaw got such high score. It was linked at Discord. So I have no clue what build/'luck' the Outlaw spec had during the sim. I might roll Sin for the sustainability and the lesser RNG, although I do think the RNG in Outlaw is also a challenge and something that makes the game more fun to play. Meaning I am not sure yet lol.
Sub is out of the choice for me, don't like the whole mechanics around the spec.

Sin or Outlaw... Someone convince me please!

It's an outdated picture. I'd check out https://simc.skasch.com/ until Aethys releases his new spreadsheet. Keep in mind the Sub19m uses its best legendary, while Assassin does not.

If Sub is good for PvP and the artifact skills work in PvP though, is that something to consider? To my knowledge there is no more PvP gear, right?

I know 90% of talk here is for raiding mythic, but yeah, just curious. I'm sorta choosing based off raiding and arena.

I know sub is not going to be weak in raiding, and it might even become the best. But it's already very good in pvp. If I was not looking to push the meters early tier and also did a lot of pvp I'd probably go Sub.

[Deleted]

Keep in mind the Sub19m uses its best legendary, while Assassin does not.

I just noticed, the Assassin T19M also doesn't have any relics, apparently. 30 seconds CDR on Vendetta is HUGE, especially when combined with the legendary.

I will most likely go Assa simply because i don't like the RNG of Outlaw during progression and Sub is just straight up worse until you get really high ilvl gear and a full artifact. Both of those factors go pretty clearly against early Mythic progression, even for Nighthold since the T19-boni seem to be sooooo much better for Assa.

Depending on Sets and trinkets, Sub will very likely be the stronger spec by the time we get our hands on Mythic T20 gear but by that time we'll have Artifact Knowledge 25 or higher if they raise the cap, so it should be easy to get a Sub Artifact to 35 during Nighthold farm.

[Todesbote]

I'd check out https://simc.skasch.com/ until Aethys releases his new spreadsheet.

That's amazing. Who made this?

[Puffah]

That's amazing. Who made this?

Skasch. He works with Aethys on the simulation stuff.

[Raugnaut]

A note - Due to the exponentially scaling AP costs, going from lvl 1-12 is about as much XP as going from, say, 15-18. (Not completely accurate, but you will get to a point that it MAY be better to invest in another spec if you don't want that spec to be useless.

[Hashcrypt]

Im having a hard time with this myself. I'm honestly good playing any of our 3 specs for any content in the game. I'd like to be able to switch on the fly based on the situation, but with artifact emphasis that's going to be difficult to achieve.

However, as a baseline, I think I'm going to get all 3 weapons to 13 before I really start to invest in one specifically. That's a ton of value imo for the first 19.5k AP spent, compared to getting 14 in one and 13 in a second weapon.