Diversity in comic book

[Kraenen]

You realise right, that the X-men were invented to make social commentary? They were a deliberate parallel to the civil rights movement, with Xavier representing Martin Luther King and Magneto representing Malcom, X. And since then they've been used to comment on other social issues, most especially gay rights.

Were Xavier and Magneto black?

[Endus]

Were Xavier and Magneto black?

There's this thing called "allegory" that writers occasionally make use of.

It may surprise you that Gulliver's Travels wasn't actually about tiny and giant people, and Jonathan Swift wasn't actually proposing cannibalising the Irish.

[Skroe]

You realise right, that the X-men were invented to make social commentary? They were a deliberate parallel to the civil rights movement, with Xavier representing Martin Luther King and Magneto representing Malcom, X. And since then they've been used to comment on other social issues, most especially gay rights.

As I wrote, that's been the minority of X-Men stories, and not even the particularly good ones.

The majority of X-Men stories are superheroics, science fiction and sometimes fantasy. Intent is one thing, execution is quite different.

Tell me how Age of Apocalypse, the Dark Phoenix Saga, House of M, the Phalanx Covenant, Fatal Attractions, Inferno, the X-Men in Australia, Days of Future's Past, Onslaught, Imperial, and most others had anything to do with allegory? They didn't. God Loves Man Kills doesn't make up for the fact that the X-Men are more often than not saving the world from someone looking to wipe it out, or traveling through time, or other planets, other dimensions, than cerebrally examining the place of a minority in an unaccepting society.

Occasional one offs did. But really, they're the exception rather than the rule. I bet you they have more story's about ninjas or Canada or the "Thieves Guild" than they do about social commentary.

[alzoron]

DC has a long history of different people taking up the mantle of a hero and Captain America has apparently been a Nazi this whole time so they can do whatever they want now as far as I care. What it comes down to though is as long as the story is compelling I don't care. As long as a character doesn't just walk in and say "Hey guys, I'm <insert race/sex> now!" and everyone carries on as if nothing happened then I'm fine with it.

[grimniruk]

You realise right, that the X-men were invented to make social commentary? They were a deliberate parallel to the civil rights movement, with Xavier representing Martin Luther King and Magneto representing Malcom, X. And since then they've been used to comment on other social issues, most especially gay rights.

Arguably, this is probably the most minor and WORSE part of the X-men and fundamentally the biggest flaw the X-men have ever had. To keep Mutants "The social commentry" it means everyone in the Marvel universe needs to be a dumb hateful asshat.

[Kraenen]

There's this thing called "allegory" that writers occasionally make use of.

It may surprise you that Gulliver's Travels wasn't actually about tiny and giant people, and Jonathan Swift wasn't actually proposing cannibalising the Irish.

Yeah I think you completely missed my point.

And somehow you end up arguing against blatant diversity pandering

[Skroe]

There's this thing called "allegory" that writers occasionally make use of.

It may surprise you that Gulliver's Travels wasn't actually about tiny and giant people, and Jonathan Swift wasn't actually proposing cannibalising the Irish.

X-Men is incredibly allegorical, except the vast majority of times it wasn't.


Some world



That hates

And fears


Them



X-Men as allegory has always and will always be bullshit. They are superhero adventurers with a different backstory and origin, the end.

You don't go to a Michael Bay movie expecting an deep exploration of the human condition. And you don't go to super-hero comic books expecting worthwhile insight on the world in which we live. For every one moment of that is fifty moments of well... the Brood or something of that nature.

But anyway time for work. back later.

[grimniruk]

Let me just explain why alot of these changes are bad.

First; Captain America; Sam has been Captain America before, We have had a Black Captain America before, So why Sam being Cap NOW is drummed up as petty Diversity quotas, especially as it goes against Sam's character. Sam has never enjoyed being a leader, he can step up to the role, but he's a better soldier than a commander. It's also blatant pandering when Misty Knight suddenly has the hots for him, despite barely knowing him and being engaged to Danny Rand.

Second: Thor. Thor is not a title, it's not a power set, it's a person. When Thor has previously had the powers removed or given to people like Eric Masterson. They didn't take up the "Title" of Thor. They BECAME Thor the Thundergod, and in every iteration, like Eric, Have had Thor's godly soul hidden within them. FemThor has none of these ties, she just picked up the Hammer. AND IRONICALLY we have already had "What if Jane foster was Thor" before. She called herself Thordis, and Again, had the trapped soul of Thor within her.

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X-Men as allegory has always and will always be bullshit. They are superhero adventurers with a different backstory and origin, the end.

You don't go to a Michael Bay movie expecting an deep exploration of the human condition. And you don't go to super-hero comic books expecting worthwhile insight on the world in which we live. For every one moment of that is fifty moments of well... the Brood or something of that nature.

But anyway time for work. back later.

I mean arguably the most famous writer for X-men, Claremont, Wrote blatant fetish fuel.

[Jotaux]

First; Captain America; Sam has been Captain America before, We have had a Black Captain America before, So why Sam being Cap NOW is drummed up as petty Diversity quotas, especially as it goes against Sam's character. Sam has never enjoyed being a leader, he can step up to the role, but he's a better soldier than a commander. It's also blatant pandering when Misty Knight suddenly has the hots for him, despite barely knowing him and being engaged to Danny Rand.

That Captain America comic is just unbearable, I cringed the whole time I read the latest issue.

[Dadwen]

You're reading way too much into it. All they were noting was some of the obvious ways she's different from the Thor-that-was. That she's female is a pretty clear difference.

Much like if you took Captain Marvel, retired Carol Danvers, and wanted to tease who the new Captain Marvel would be, if you were gonna resurrect Mar-Vell, saying "He's a guy" would be a relevant tease, because it's clearly not Carol.

It isn't about anything inherent to the gender, it's about the nature of the change. A gender swap is a more significant deviation for the mantle than if you replaced Thor with his twin brother Thur; that's technically a new guy, but there's no apparent difference.

People only make a big fuss out of this stuff because there's this weird conceptual idea that a "standard hero" is a straight white dude, so pretty much any attempt to change any of those characteristics gets decried as "pandering" for some reason. There's nothing about being a gay Hispanic woman that makes being heroic less likely.

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A larger demographic group than any other specific demographic group.

has not a dam thing to do with it being a standard straight white dud, I'd be just as ticked if they Replaced Storm with another person even if she was a black Female. Storm is Ororo Munroe....

It has more to do with whatever Character we've grown attached to pushed from the roll we've grown up with them in.

[grimniruk]

That Captain America comic is just unbearable, I cringed the whole time I read the latest issue.

Pretty much. I cringed during Thor because it's so pointless, we've been here before, the pandering is pathetic and the stories are not new or interesting.

People want Thor to be cosmic god fantasy stories, not some whiny bitch beating up absorbing man who absorbed the powers of an internet strawman.

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has not a dam thing to do with it being a standard straight white dud, I'd be just as ticked if they Replaced Storm with another person even if she was a black Female. Storm is Ororo Munroe....

It has more to do with whatever Character we've grown attached to pushed from the roll we've grown up with them in.

The ironic fact is the "Steve rodgers was hydra all along" is an interesting arc because.... it's not changed Steve much, he's a good guy who works for an "Ideal" of Hydra that only a cosmic cube girl thought was correct.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

They're always changing things, like... ALWAYS. there is an iron man frog even. Falcon becoming capn america makes PERFECT sense also. People seem to hate it and rage about it, but truly they never seem to have an issue with other changes.

Captain America will always be Captain America to me.

If they change it to Froggy America or Sassy African-American America then I'll just ignore it, consider it non-canon and move on with my life.

Stupid shit needs not the time nor energy expended upon it. You express that best by simply not buying into it.

[grimniruk]

Captain America will always be Captain America to me.

If they change it to Froggy America or Sassy African-American America then I'll just ignore it, consider it non-canon and move on with my life.

Stupid shit needs not the time nor energy expended upon it. You express that best by simply not buying into it.

That's a problem with these "all new All different" Switch-ups. Nobody cares.

[Jotaux]

Pretty much. I cringed during Thor because it's so pointless, we've been here before, the pandering is pathetic and the stories are not new or interesting.

People want Thor to be cosmic god fantasy stories, not some whiny bitch beating up absorbing man who absorbed the powers of an internet strawman.

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The ironic fact is the "Steve rodgers was hydra all along" is an interesting arc because.... it's not changed Steve much, he's a good guy who works for an "Ideal" of Hydra that only a cosmic cube girl thought was correct.

Its just annoying because I thought Sam Wilson was a good fit for the mantle. Now its not about who Captain America is but what race he is. I know some racists already define a person based on their race but it doesn't make for good storytelling.

[Shadowferal]

*sigh*
I used to be an avid reader/collector of Marvel comic-books since the mid-70s. I pretty much stopped after it seemed that Marvel was trying to redeem Sabretooth into some hero. (After the Morlock Massacre, he deserved the death penalty.)
But I have to admit that comic books were going down hill since the late 80s. The storylines were just too fucked up. (first time we really get the idea that death isn't permanent was in the amazingly shitty "X-Factor.") They tried...but then the 90s came along and just sucked away. There are few new popular superheroes in the past 15 years, with actual original names and titles. (eg., "Deadpool," "Cable" Gambit)

Today Marvel just connects what is "new" with the old.

The "anchors" were created in the 60s. (Not counting Cap, Namor or the original Human Torch, or any character from the Golden Age)

Then Marvel got even more creative in the 70s...and they went to the wall with just about everything we know today.
The 80s went crazy from the sheer writing endeavors that reinforced characters that were created; e.g., Beta Ray Bill, Venom, Elecktra, She-Hulk, Dazzler, etc.,...(Though I extremely dislike Venom)

The 90s is when the momentum downhill increased, and very much hit or miss. Cable, Deadpool, and even Gambit were ok. But they had the writers and the characters still reflecting from earlier material. The new "Darkhawk" was intriguing at first. But lacked the writing quality to keep any interest. The "Scarlet Spider" reflected back to Spider-Man, but still suffered from sucky writing. "Winter Guard" didn't make the cut because of the poor writing again. "Thunderbolts" did make the grade in a big way. Damn, that was good writing there! And that's what kept that title going strong.

Things just took an embarrassing turn later. Marvel VP Tom Brevoort flat out said that the only thing that spikes sales today is controversy.
I find most of the readership of today's comic-books has rather poor taste, and prefers to support the lack of writing content in favor of this "controversy," which in my opinion is nothing more than flashy political correct bullshit.

But "Hail Hydra" right?

[grimniruk]

Its just annoying because I thought Sam Wilson was a good fit for the mantle. Now its not about who Captain America is but what race he is. I know some racists already define a person based on their race but it doesn't make for good storytelling.

The most blatant racist thing is paring him up with Misty Knight.

Because Black girls need a black man, can't marry a white man.

Most of this is just Bendis though and his Fetishism for Luke Cage,

[SupBrah]

Hollywood and entertainment still believe there's profit to be made in pandering to the lowest common denominator (AKA regressive liberals) because most of them have been conditioned by a consumerist culture.

The problem is, regressives prefer complaining over content they've never even tried over actually trying out said content, and we're finally starting to see it bite the companies in the ass because those who actually consume their content are getting tired of this regressive forced diversity shit.

[grimniruk]

Hollywood and entertainment still believe there's profit to be made in pandering to the lowest common denominator (AKA regressive liberals) because most of them have been conditioned by a consumerist culture.

The problem is, regressives prefer complaining over content they've never even tried over actually trying out said content, and we're finally starting to see it bite the companies in the ass because those who actually consume their content are getting tired of this regressive forced diversity shit.

I agree with what you say, but find it funny you link Regressive liberals to consumerist culture when consumerist culture is just a very American thing anyway.

[Naxere]

Eh, I don't waste my time worrying about what they do in the comic book world.

[judgementofantonidas]

so what do you think about marvel changing genders and ethnicities of some of their characters in certain storylines. for example the ones I can think of is the female thor, the new iron man is a black teenage girl (with natural hair), falcon (who is black) became the new capn America, and the new hulk is an Asian, while I know there are existing charcters of different genders and ethnicities, I don't feel they are as popular as their white male counterparts, I know that is not entirely true and there are very popular female characters etc.

personally I feel it is good because these are existing characters who have a big fan base and this will encourage more diversity, which I feel sometimes has to be pushed through.

Thoughts?

transgenders and homosexuals are cropping up in literally every television series and movie. so why not comic books? they are openly accepted now so they are pushing their agenda and will not stop until they have ruined the world.