Diversity in comic book

[Shadowferal]

Hollywood has a gold mine of comic-book stories before they got desperate and try all this more recent shit. Controversy can wait.

Beta-Ray Bill anyone?

[grimniruk]

Hollywood has a gold mine of comic-book stories before they got desperate and try all this more recent shit. Controversy can wait.

Beta-Ray Bill anyone?

Beta ray Bill is too good for current Marvel.

[Fencers]

One of the best comparisons I've seen is that comics are essentially modern mythology. The important strains that underly the characters are what "matter", in the long term, not the specifics of a particular storyline. This is why the alternate universes work so well; there are still common threads connecting the various incarnations.

Same way you'd see multiple different versions of similar myths, back in the day when myth was mostly retold through stories and word of mouth.

Grant Morrison wrote a pretty good book that touched on this idea. It's a concept in his work since the first JLA run he did- the modern myth. I suppose it stretches further back to his Animal Man work and the unconsciousness myth making of humanity or whatever BS Morrison is about.

[phitness]

Still waiting for a Chinese male "Wonder Women" or the marvel equivalent. It will never happen tho because you can change characters from white to any other race or from male to female but never from female to male.

[Shadowferal]

Beta ray Bill is too good for current Marvel.

There were so many good storylines during that time...

It really is embarrassing what we see in comic books today.

[grimniruk]

Grant Morrison wrote a pretty good book that touched on this idea. It's a concept in his work since the first JLA run he did- the modern myth. I suppose it stretches further back to his Animal Man work and the unconsciousness myth making of humanity or whatever BS Morrison is about.

Morrison is very much a one note writer and babys first meta writer.

[Felya]

Tell me how Age of Apocalypse

The tables were flipped, where humans were the outcasts. It was mostly dealt with in Age of Apocalypse Prime, where characters like captain America and Bruce Banner were the underground human force.

the Dark Phoenix Saga

This one is very good actually. It involved putting mutants on the univers scale. Similarly to other stories that involve Shi'ar empire, Starjammers or Cyclopse's father, the take away there should have been how little our differences mater, even when some have super powers, when compared to the universe. It's similar to the point I've been making most of the thread, race or gender or even mutation, are not relevant when dealing with other worldly beings. After years of mutant extinction attempts and mutant persecution, the story was showing that outside earth, it doesn't mater.

House of M

The whole point of Wanda warping the universe, was to have a world where mutants are no longer different. Even the end, killed off the majority of mutants and created a race for Hope, as the key to mutant survival, being the first new mutant after house of m. Where they ended up sending Hope in to the future with Cable, to escape groups trying to kill her. Even the characters name being Hope, is trying to beat you down with the concept.

the Phalanx Covenant

The whole big reveal at the end was the tie to Extinction Agenda. A human, who through technology, became exactly what he feared in mutants. Became bound with an extra terrestrial force trying to harvest mutants for power. It made Hodge reveal that his motives were not the betterment of humanity, but once again to harness the power for him self. It continues the allegory around... Well... Trump... A politician who uses fearmongering over those who are different, for personal gain.

Fatal Attractions, Inferno, the X-Men in Australia

Did not read, but inferno centers on a similar note as Xman's intergalactic travel. Who cares that mutants are different, when demons of hell rise to take over the world.

Days of Future's Past

Really? I don't think I need to explain what concentration camps for mutants and military force gunning them down on sight is supposed to mean.

Onslaught

This one was just $$ in trying to boost dwindling sales, by having an omi powered being join the Xmen rogue gallery. But, even then, the drive for Onslaught's destruction, was once again, a supernatural being that combined the consciousness of Charles and Magnito, to form the opinion that the world needs to be purged.

Imperial

Did not read, but isn't it another mutants jaxterposed with aliens, to show how trivial our differences are in the grand scheme of things? That's kinda the driving force that got mutants into space in the first place.

and most others had anything to do with allegory? They didn't.

All of them do. The simple fact that the Xavier's school exists is a segregation allegory. The majority of the stories hinge on the extinction of mutants. Magneto will always be driven by concentration camps. The Xmen will always be fighting for fair treatment of mutants... Well... Until inhuman take their spot within the next couple of years, to piss off Sony.

God Loves Man Kills doesn't make up for the fact that the X-Men are more often than not saving the world from someone looking to wipe it out, or traveling through time, or other planets, other dimensions, than cerebrally examining the place of a minority in an unaccepting society.

All of those are allegories specifically made to show that those demonized are actually fighting for our safety. It's pretty much the same purpose as Khan's appearance at DNC.

Occasional one offs did. But really, they're the exception rather than the rule. I bet you they have more story's about ninjas or Canada or the "Thieves Guild" than they do about social commentary.

But, all of those are. Thieves guild is pretty much gypsies and tied to bonds being created into tight nit groups, due to being outcasts. Ninja's in Canada was centered on wolverine, whose origin is largely an allegory for Tuskegee experiments, with ninjas being an example of his storied career, that was meaningless when they were killing off mutants to see which one has adamantium stick.

The best Weapon X story actually wasn't published by marvel, it was W3 by image. The Xmen writer ended up taking his story to Image and replaced Weapon X with some other government entity. The story focuses on the escape of enhanced rabbit, dog and cat. Very good read, with great art... W3 buy it on comixology for 6 bucks or wait a few months and get it on an image sale for 3.

[Trassk]

I can sum up marvel now in three simple words.

"F**king White Males"


Being someone who grew up in the 90s, and my fav series being x-men and batman, these shows were some of the best cartoons on tv, and x-men especially let me find somewhere relatable as I started to come out. To this day I have always hoped for more diverse characters in comics, and have gotten that in certain instances with gay characters, people of different diversities that band alongside the more classical heroes.

Its when this modern sjw shit of trying to wipe out anything that ISN'T part of a diverse group that it becomes cringeworthy, to the point of trying to get rid of all the 'old white hetero male' characters like thor, cap, wolverine, ironman, spiderman, and replace all of them with 'diverse' characters, still having the same costumes and titles as the classic, but 'OH LOOK JIMMY, THATS THE NEW SPIDERMAN, NOT THE OLD WHITE HETERO PIECE OF SHIT BUT A MUCH MORE PROGRESSIVE SPIDERMAN'.

Just, no, f**k off marvel, appealing to this sjw mindset in such a massive way is just embarrassing to watch.

[Deleted]

As I wrote, that's been the minority of X-Men stories, and not even the particularly good ones.

The majority of X-Men stories are superheroics, science fiction and sometimes fantasy. Intent is one thing, execution is quite different.

Tell me how Age of Apocalypse, the Dark Phoenix Saga, House of M, the Phalanx Covenant, Fatal Attractions, Inferno, the X-Men in Australia, Days of Future's Past, Onslaught, Imperial, and most others had anything to do with allegory? They didn't. God Loves Man Kills doesn't make up for the fact that the X-Men are more often than not saving the world from someone looking to wipe it out, or traveling through time, or other planets, other dimensions, than cerebrally examining the place of a minority in an unaccepting society.

Occasional one offs did. But really, they're the exception rather than the rule. I bet you they have more story's about ninjas or Canada or the "Thieves Guild" than they do about social commentary.

They were made originally to be an allegory for civil rights. Since then we've had over half a century of xmen stories some of which continue that theme, others of which are merely meaningless superheroic antics. But that underlining theme of the Xmen being an oppressed minority runs throughout the Xmen story. And it's not just them. From Wonder Woman's feminist roots to the stories of Superman fighting Nazis - comic books have always been political. Fiction has always been political. This is nothing new and it's a good thing.

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Hollywood has a gold mine of comic-book stories before they got desperate and try all this more recent shit. Controversy can wait.

Beta-Ray Bill anyone?

I think it says a lot about you that you're more ready for a film about an alien horse than you are one about a woman or a gay person or a black person.

[soulcrusher]

In general it's to be expected as with the times. Some of it though like with thor is I feel disrespectful. He is after all someone's tradition, culture, history. It also feels very one sided. Will we ever get a white black panther?

[grimniruk]

I think it says a lot about you that you're more ready for a film about an alien horse than you are one about a woman or a gay person or a black person.

That he prefers seeing stories about interesting characters that can only be expressed through fiction than cardboard cutouts standings for <Insert minority>

[Jotaux]

The most blatant racist thing is paring him up with Misty Knight.

Because Black girls need a black man, can't marry a white man.

Most of this is just Bendis though and his Fetishism for Luke Cage,

I didn't understand that either. Like did they explain in another comic that they weren't engaged anymore? Or is Misty Knight just a hoe? Maybe Danny gets off on it? I don't know it was just so random. Of course it kind of got glossed over when they had they secret black superhero only meeting right after to discuss the implication of War Machine's death on the black superhero community.

[grimniruk]

I didn't understand that either. Like did they explain in another comic that they weren't engaged anymore? Or is Misty Knight just a hoe? Maybe Danny gets off on it? I don't know it was just so random. Of course it kind of got glossed over when they had they secret black superhero only meeting right after to discuss the implication of War Machine's death on the black superhero community.

Well, like I said, it's because of Bendis and his hatred of Iron Fist.

Only Luke Cage is allowed to be happy and stable and have a Bi-racial marriage.

[Deleted]

That he prefers seeing stories about interesting characters that can only be expressed through fiction than cardboard cutouts standings for <Insert minority>

I don't get this attitude that if a character is from a minority they can't possibly also be interesting characters in their own right. Just because writers decide to inject a little diversity into their work it doesn't mean those diverse characters must be written tokenistically. I'm not going to comment on the specifics of these new comics, because I'm more just into the movies and I'm interested mainly in how the new diversity of the comics will translate into hollywood. But you know, I'd much rather see Kamala Khan than Beta Ray Bill, both because she adds more diversity and because she's a cool character.

[Dhrizzle]

Then keep it in the creator owned, mini-series or graphic novel format. Watchmen is a good example. Note what it isn't: the Charlton comics characters, which all of them were based on (Rorschach = the Question, Doctor Manhattan = the Atom, etc.)

But not the main Avengers, X-Men or their franchise books.

Comic books done right:






really, what the fuck is this?

Are you really saying that comics heroes are only "done right" if they're almost exclusively white?

My personal favorite is the new Giant Man, Raz Malhotra, who the comic book super hero diversity random trait generator shat out "South Asian" and "Gay".

It's a character that didn't need to exist as Giant Man, other than add a Gay South Asian to the roster.

He would be a fine character if he had his own identity rather than just displaced another.

Why do people need a reason to be South Asian or gay? Why does the default have to be straight-white-male unless there's some purpose in varying from "the norm."

Also Giant Man is an odd choice to get upset over considering there have been 3 Giant Men now (not to mention the team of Giant Men who took over from Pym in the Ultimate universe.) The first two Giant Men also went by the name Goliath (of which there have been at least 4,) and the original was also called Yellowjacket, Ant-Man (of which there have been several) and Wasp (the original Wasp was his wife.)

[grimniruk]

Also Giant Man is an odd choice to get upset over considering there have been 3 Giant Men now (not to mention the team of Giant Men who took over from Pym in the Ultimate universe.) The first two Giant Men also went by the name Goliath (of which there have been at least 4,) and the original was also called Yellowjacket, Ant-Man (of which there have been several) and Wasp (the original Wasp was his wife.)

Because they're bringing back a character who died, and was actually pretty respected, by slathering generic tags onto them and pushing them out. What connection does the new Giant man have to the Originals?

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Are you really saying that comics heroes are only "done right" if they're almost exclusively white?

Probably saying they're done right when they're not a recolour or an abortion redesign like Squirrel girl.

[Dhrizzle]

Passing the mantle would be like Death of Superman/Rise of the Supermen, DIFFERENT characters who do similar things. You could even have something like having Captain America give someone else the shield, but they aren't now Captain America they are, I don't know Commander Liberty who happens to have Captain America's shield, like how Major Victory was in Guardians of the Galaxy; he had Cap's shield but wasn't Captain America, and didn't claim to be Captain America (at least as far as I read). This is taking an existing character and keeping the name and everything, but changing the person seemingly just to change their gender/race/etc.

So William Nasland, Jeffrey Mace, William Burnside and Bucky Barnes were all fine as Captain America, but once Sam Wilson gets the shield it's a problem because it changes his race?

How did you react to the potential-future Captain America Danielle Cage?

[Mihalik]

The problem is it all feels forced right now. It feels like everyone is trying to meet the diversity quota so people don't get offended.

This is my problem too.

Many of the changes that are supposed to have narrative shock value (Thor is a girl! Iron Man hands down his mantle), completely fall flat and instead of being an interesting plot point, they become Social Justice cliches.

I'd rather see the creation of new characters that could start as tie-ins to the old ones, which have their own narratives and where their gender/racial identity is secondary or complementary to their character development.

What's next? A Pansexual Genderfluid Non-Violent Bronie Punisher?

[grimniruk]

So William Nasland, Jeffrey Mace, William Burnside and Bucky Barnes were all fine as Captain America, but once Sam Wilson gets the shield it's a problem because it changes his race?

How did you react to the potential-future Captain America Danielle Cage?

Sam has already had the Shield before. This is not new or interesting. You also forgot Clint was Captain America, pls stop using wikipedia.

[Dhrizzle]

You realise right, that the X-men were invented to make social commentary? They were a deliberate parallel to the civil rights movement, with Xavier representing Martin Luther King and Magneto representing Malcom, X. And since then they've been used to comment on other social issues, most especially gay rights.

They weren't invented to make social commentary, Stan Lee came up with the idea of mutants because he couldn't be bothered coming up with novel ways to give powers to a new bunch of super-heroes so he decided they were just born that way.

It's a happy coincidence that they managed to be allegorical to civil rights movements.