Mind Spike viable in Legion?

[Alaidia]

Surrender to Madness is just too golden. You can really go insane on voice and dominate damage and all will be wtf till you die. This adrenaline, this awesomeness you cannot find with any other class/spec.

I CANNOT agree more with this. Every fight I take StM and there is a fire mage or boomkin that can surpass me if i mess it up and die early, I get this feeling of anticipation. Like I know should ALWAYS be number one on damage but thats only if I get the timing right and don't miss a cast in later stacks of VF.
It is a thrill when you watch your insanity spike 80 points, and you're just try to eek out every last bit of damage before the inevitable. Mashing that VB hoping the travel time doesn't kill you. It's a roller coaster for me personally.

[GemaRawr]

I CANNOT agree more with this. Every fight I take StM and there is a fire mage or boomkin that can surpass me if i mess it up and die early, I get this feeling of anticipation. Like I know should ALWAYS be number one on damage but thats only if I get the timing right and don't miss a cast in later stacks of VF.
It is a thrill when you watch your insanity spike 80 points, and you're just try to eek out every last bit of damage before the inevitable. Mashing that VB hoping the travel time doesn't kill you. It's a roller coaster for me personally.

You get insanity on cast, not on impact.

[Rumstein]

3 minute no brez debuff starts once you die while STM.

3m no Brez timer starts when you turn on STM, which also has a 3m duration (you die after 3 minutes even if you dont run out of insanity).

On topic: Mind Spike could have some potential use in Mythic+ Dungeons where you may need the AoE damage (and SPriest AoE sucks, come on), while bosses might not last long enough or be suitable for STM. Void Lord may still come out on top there though, being able to enter VF at 85 and not wasting insanity gain on the first cast is pretty nice.

[Alanar]

I CANNOT agree more with this. Every fight I take StM and there is a fire mage or boomkin that can surpass me if i mess it up and die early, I get this feeling of anticipation. Like I know should ALWAYS be number one on damage but thats only if I get the timing right and don't miss a cast in later stacks of VF.
It is a thrill when you watch your insanity spike 80 points, and you're just try to eek out every last bit of damage before the inevitable. Mashing that VB hoping the travel time doesn't kill you. It's a roller coaster for me personally.

Yea be aweaome for 3 min and watch it hurt when you notice its a 10 min cd. Maybe golden for pve heroes but pvp its lacking big time, I hate the talent for example

[Cheze]

mind spike's damage looks weak because each cast deals damage multiple times: once when it hits, and again when you detonate it with mind blast.

I dunno, maybe on a fight like xhul or manno that had regularly spawning weak adds it could be useful. Seems pretty niche though, and even fights like that often have a final burn phase where you'd rather have StM.

[Kiea]

Yea be aweaome for 3 min and watch it hurt when you notice its a 10 min cd. Maybe golden for pve heroes but pvp its lacking big time, I hate the talent for example

The main problem though is not the power of StM in PvE, its the incredible weakness of the other two choices.

Mind spike barely does anything, and stacking it up risks you losing out on other abilities that you would rather use. And with Legacy of the Void, you generally only want to enter voidform at 80+ insanity anyway.

[Purpleisbetter]

Surrender to Madness is just too golden. You can really go insane on voice and dominate damage and all will be wtf till you die. This adrenaline, this awesomeness you cannot find with any other class/spec.

[surrender to carpal tunnel] is indeed the funniest class mechanic to happen since long time.

[Alanar]

The main problem though is not the power of StM in PvE, its the incredible weakness of the other two choices.

Mind spike barely does anything, and stacking it up risks you losing out on other abilities that you would rather use. And with Legacy of the Void, you generally only want to enter voidform at 80+ insanity anyway.

The thing with mindapike is It makes me think of how it used to be with stacks and use instant mindblast, only this was 2 or 3 stacks, which was reasonable.

10 stacks is useless even more so cus the stacks on the target instead of yourself. I find this weird, remember when they changed this with insanity mindflay it used to be a debuff on your target, but changed it to be a buff on yourself so you would be able to use your flays on some one else instead of your main target.

Solution talk! Make it 5 stacks and be a buff on yourself so you wont lose it in the middle of big add group.

StM should have a different version in pvp to atleast make it useable imo.

Ps; so many things I can sum up to make things more reasonable, not to fond on the shadow talent tree.

[Djriff]

It was discussed earlier but even casting mind spike on a secondary target and saving up stacks while using MB on your primary target isn't worth it. For burst AoE situations, shadowcrash is very superior and doesn't gimp your rotation to utilize the "burst" of mindspike. It's just a bad talent all around.

[Kaigera]

I CANNOT agree more with this. Every fight I take StM and there is a fire mage or boomkin that can surpass me if i mess it up and die early, I get this feeling of anticipation. Like I know should ALWAYS be number one on damage but thats only if I get the timing right and don't miss a cast in later stacks of VF.
It is a thrill when you watch your insanity spike 80 points, and you're just try to eek out every last bit of damage before the inevitable. Mashing that VB hoping the travel time doesn't kill you. It's a roller coaster for me personally.

I absolutely love the talent because of ^ and it is so much crazy fun. Crazy crazy fun!

However... regardless of the fun factor, I still need a viable alternative for scenarios where I can't toss caution to the wind and fully embrace our beloved stm. Yes, after doing a fight for a while, you learn what you can handle and how far you can push your stm limit. My issue is when Shadow is your OS, and you don't have the fight experience from a dps perspective. As a healer when I go in and sub for a dps, I want a kickass talent that will help me bring some strong numbers. I'm not looking to break records and top any charts. What I care about is not being a liability to my guild. As a result, my class fantasy epic SURRENDER 2 MADDNESS can end up being more like "um surrender to maddening, I guess." (And actually detracts from the class fantasy and makes the spec feel worse imo.)

Yes, the talent is fantastic snd incredibly strong, but I don't accept that as a reason for why there aren't any other options on that talent row.

And pvp, lol poor shadow in pvp. I hadn't actually thought about that. Yeah, the spec's pvp viability due to the current T100 talent choices absolutely deserves some attention.

[Menae]

It was discussed earlier but even casting mind spike on a secondary target and saving up stacks while using MB on your primary target isn't worth it. For burst AoE situations, shadowcrash is very superior and doesn't gimp your rotation to utilize the "burst" of mindspike. It's just a bad talent all around.

I mean, I don't disagree that Shadow Crash is better than Mind Spike, but it's not competing with shadow crash; it's competing with STM and Legacy. If you are in a situation where STM is not a good option, whether that's from a specific mechanic of a hypothetical raid boss (let's say he stuns the raid for 5 seconds every 30 seconds, for example), or from the content you are doing (5 man heroics where you won't be taking STM), or from Blizzard nerfing it to +1% insanity gain and no movement while casting, what sort of situation is required for Mind Spike to be a better pickup than LotV?

[Narbert]

3m no Brez timer starts when you turn on STM, which also has a 3m duration (you die after 3 minutes even if you dont run out of insanity).

On topic: Mind Spike could have some potential use in Mythic+ Dungeons where you may need the AoE damage (and SPriest AoE sucks, come on), while bosses might not last long enough or be suitable for STM. Void Lord may still come out on top there though, being able to enter VF at 85 and not wasting insanity gain on the first cast is pretty nice.

Wrong...

The no rez debuff appears after you die.

If you were right, that would mean I could pop STM during the fight... lets say I die 2 minutes in... I should only have 1 minute left on the debuff to be ressed.

This is not the case, after you die; the debuff appears, not allowing you to be rezzed for 3 minutes.

[Rumstein]

Wrong...

The no rez debuff appears after you die.

If you were right, that would mean I could pop STM during the fight... lets say I die 2 minutes in... I should only have 1 minute left on the debuff to be ressed.

This is not the case, after you die; the debuff appears, not allowing you to be rezzed for 3 minutes.

You'll notice that the debuff is active at the same time as S2M, and conveniently my character is actually still alive. If you can live out the S2M timer, you can be immediately bressed.

In other news, I think Mind Spike should have double the base damage - it's currently pathetic (2.3k [35% sp] per 1.2s cast + 4.6k delayed single target on explosion and 2.3k aoe, vs mind flays 16.4k [200% sp] over 2.4 seconds). Thats 210% total SP to MS on a single target (+70% small aoe) over the same duration as Mind Flays 200% (Strangely, the damage numbers don't equal the sp? 6412 Int). The damage bonus is completely insignificant, and the delay of Mind Blast to make efficient use of it as well as still slow ramp makes it quite pathetic. If it had 50% SP per cast, maybe it would be stronger (takes it to 300% SP per 2 casts total single target, 100% aoe). This is what we get for a final tier talent?

(Conveniently, MS used to be 100% sp/cast and boosted next MB by 20% stacking 5x, while MF was 120% over 2GCDs and got buffed)

Legacy of the void is... lacklustre. It's better than mind spike, but similarly there's not really much difference between activating voidform at 70 and 100, especially when it's a bit more optimal to trigger it at 85% anyway. I think they should roll Void Lord into Legacy of the Void, and give a new T4 talent.

Either way, next to S2M's potential, LotV and MS just don't contribute enough, they barely even add to taking NO talent.

[Narbert]

You'll notice that the debuff is active at the same time as S2M, and conveniently my character is actually still alive. If you can live out the S2M timer, you can be immediately bressed.

In other news, I think Mind Spike should have double the base damage - it's currently pathetic (2.3k [35% sp] per 1.2s cast + 4.6k delayed single target on explosion and 2.3k aoe, vs mind flays 16.4k [200% sp] over 2.4 seconds). Thats 210% total SP to MS on a single target (+70% small aoe) over the same duration as Mind Flays 200% (Strangely, the damage numbers don't equal the sp? 6412 Int). The damage bonus is completely insignificant, and the delay of Mind Blast to make efficient use of it as well as still slow ramp makes it quite pathetic. If it had 50% SP per cast, maybe it would be stronger (takes it to 300% SP per 2 casts total single target, 100% aoe). This is what we get for a final tier talent?

(Conveniently, MS used to be 100% sp/cast and boosted next MB by 20% stacking 5x, while MF was 120% over 2GCDs and got buffed)

Legacy of the void is... lacklustre. It's better than mind spike, but similarly there's not really much difference between activating voidform at 70 and 100, especially when it's a bit more optimal to trigger it at 85% anyway. I think they should roll Void Lord into Legacy of the Void, and give a new T4 talent.

Either way, next to S2M's potential, LotV and MS just don't contribute enough, they barely even add to taking NO talent.

Fight a boss and die while in STM. Show me the debuff after you die, 3 minutes bud. That's what this is about.

[Rumstein]

Fight a boss and die while in STM. Show me the debuff after you die, 3 minutes bud. That's what this is about.

Deliberately died 1.5 min into S2M on Archimonde for you.
Img 1, I died at 2:33:30 exactly, screenshot was taken within 5 seconds, you can see it is still 2:33 on the clock in the bottom right, and 2 mins on debuff.
Img 2, taken within 5 seconds of the NPC's yell at 2:34:38, 19s left on debuff.
S2M was even activated together with time warp, delaying voidform, and you can see how much TW has ticked down.
If you die less then 1 minute into S2M, yeah, it is going to round up to 3 minutes.