Nerf Nerf Nerf Nerf Nerf...

[Nemesquish]

Agreed. Too many classes stay untouched and are "far" better than others.

To be fair, Its normlly the same 2 classes that get out of hand, and since Mage is blizzard's baby class, that one will never go a tier where it doesn't have 2 specs in the top 5.

[Panetale]

To be fair, Its normlly the same 2 classes that get out of hand, and since Mage is blizzard's baby class, that one will never go a tier where it doesn't have 2 specs in the top 5.

Agreed again. Maybe one day I will be able to accept this as well. Just feels shitty to be DK atm. especially when I look back to pre-CS nerf when I was still able to outdps shit by just being better.

[Merie]

I have an Unholy DK and I can honestly say it beats the pants off my Ret. I "wish" my Ret Paladin "sucked" like Unholy does. I wish.

[Deleted]

There u go. U can complain as much as u want but numbers don't lie. Also, I did raid testing, with almost all of the specs, and I can tell you this is pretty much accurate. Only thing u can expect in the build before Legion or at least hotfix is unholy nerf and frost buff. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if DH and rogues get nerf. Don't get me wrong, I don't want DKs to get nerfed, I just know how Blizzard thinks. Every expansion we see mages and hunters on top, it would be nice change to see DKs, monks, warriors or enhance shamans on top

[Gemini Soul]

There u go. U can complain as much as u want but numbers don't lie. Also, I did raid testing, with almost all of the specs, and I can tell you this is pretty much accurate. Only thing u can expect in the build before Legion or at least hotfix is unholy nerf and frost buff. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if DH and rogues get nerf. Don't get me wrong, I don't want DKs to get nerfed, I just know how Blizzard thinks. Every expansion we see mages and hunters on top, it would be nice change to see DKs, monks, warriors or enhance shamans on top

It's way to early to tell anything from sims, especially random ones like this that have no source to be checked for discrepancy's. Heck here is another "sim" http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post41945915 so which one should he believe?

[Nemesquish]

There u go. U can complain as much as u want but numbers don't lie. Also, I did raid testing, with almost all of the specs, and I can tell you this is pretty much accurate. Only thing u can expect in the build before Legion or at least hotfix is unholy nerf and frost buff. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if DH and rogues get nerf. Don't get me wrong, I don't want DKs to get nerfed, I just know how Blizzard thinks. Every expansion we see mages and hunters on top, it would be nice change to see DKs, monks, warriors or enhance shamans on top

That list is so bad, it actually hurts my eyes to look at it....MM Hunter at the bottom? rofl.

Fake numbers DO lie.

[Tijuana]

This same thread is in every class forum. Get over yourself, DKS. Everyone gets nerfed and buffed and nerfed and buffed and nerfed.

[Deleted]

There u go. U can complain as much as u want but numbers don't lie. Also, I did raid testing, with almost all of the specs, and I can tell you this is pretty much accurate. Only thing u can expect in the build before Legion or at least hotfix is unholy nerf and frost buff. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if DH and rogues get nerf. Don't get me wrong, I don't want DKs to get nerfed, I just know how Blizzard thinks. Every expansion we see mages and hunters on top, it would be nice change to see DKs, monks, warriors or enhance shamans on top

Ohh yeah?

I counter your sim with my sim!

[Deleted]

It's way to early to tell anything from sims, especially random ones like this that have no source to be checked for discrepancy's. Heck here is another "sim" http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post41945915 so which one should he believe?

Yep, i agree its too early to tell exactly. But judging by numbers I saw in raid testing with my guild, its close enough. Example link u gave me, it says ass rouge is under fury warrior, and that is pretty inaccurate. They might not be top like u can see in my picture, but they are not so low either. Also what guy below said about MM hunter being so low, that is also inaccurate, they are pretty high up, on pretty much ever encounter in nighthold and emerald nightmare (telling you from experience).

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Ohh yeah?

I counter your sim with my sim!

These numbers are pretty bad bro. Unless u did testing yourself, dont believe it. There is no way Unholy DKs are so low, and enhanc and ret pala before ass rogue lol. Also MM hunters are not that low, and destro lock is not that strong no chance.

[Dracovian]

no...you want equality among specs down to half a % or less of dps potential, that simply won't happen.
they mentioned a guild would be toxic if they wanted someone to change for progression, i was showing you that in a true progression guild your mindset is backwards
you are there to help the other 19 people in the mythic raid, help your guild get world first/etc.
not the other way around, the players mindset in these top guilds are "i do what it takes"
not "i cry when things dont go my way"

The difference is bigger than 5%. By these statements you are saying that you think the player should be okay with doing something different than what he would prefer because of Blizzard's inability to balance correctly. That's what you are saying the player's mindset should be.

but how much of the playerbase, is in a top 100 guild, compared to the unnamed masses?

Irrelevant. There should be balance to make every spec viable at the highest level. I don't get how anyone argues against this.

and, stop putting words in my mouth also, i never said blizzard should ignore underpreforming specs, i simply said that attitude in a top guild is whats toxic not the guild itself.

if the difference is 125k vs 150k, that's more than .5%, more than 10%, blizzard SHOULD fix something like that, especially if they are that far below with a class set that compliments frost much more than UH.

but putting words in my mouth? really?

You are saying the player should just adjust to the guild's need. Why must the player do that and not Blizzard balance correctly? By saying the player must make changes not Blizzard you are indeed saying Blizzard can ignore specs because the player should just change spec for the guild.

[Gemini Soul]

Yep, i agree its too early to tell exactly. But judging by numbers I saw in raid testing with my guild, its close enough. Example link u gave me, it says ass rouge is under fury warrior, and that is pretty inaccurate. They might not be top like u can see in my picture, but they are not so low either. Also what guy below said about MM hunter being so low, that is also inaccurate, they are pretty high up, on pretty much ever encounter in nighthold and emerald nightmare (telling you from experience).

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These numbers are pretty bad bro. Unless u did testing yourself, dont believe it. There is no way Unholy DKs are so low, and enhanc and ret pala before ass rogue lol. Also MM hunters are not that low, and destro lock is not that strong no chance.

The same could be said about the sim you linked about X class instead, you shouldn't post sim results with out links to have it verified and scrutinized. As for what you seen in your raid, with out logs you can just be blowing smoke to make your "sim" more realistic than the others.

Btw...here is a link to an actual sim report http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...9c25c298a86ad4 that can be scrutinized because we can see things like gear, stats, APL etc

[Dracovian]

I'm not making up anything, it's what I found after a quick jaunt through your post history.

Yes you did. Quote the exact posts where I said everything you accused me of saying.

I won't apologize for being better than you, I play both Frost and Unholy and I'm actually torn between which spec I want to raid on in Legion; I'll probably fill out my Unholy artifact first though, even though I think the spec as a whole is flying to close to the sun and is about to melt moments before raid release.

I had absolutely no problems out damaging other people in raids, 5 mans, and small groups as Frost- and if it's a problem for your 'friends', I'm going to say it has more to do with their understand and ability as players and less to do with the spec itself.

If you outdamaged an Unholy DK, Assassin/Sub Rogue as Frost then you are playing with your LFR buddies. That simply cannot happen in the current patch if both players are of equal skill.

In what scenario?

There is no yes or no blanket answer for class performance; assuming there is however, explains a lot about you.

There is no scenario in which Frost beats Unholy/Sub/Assassination in the current patch. Any such instance is a matter of inequality between the players skill.

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There u go. U can complain as much as u want but numbers don't lie. Also, I did raid testing, with almost all of the specs, and I can tell you this is pretty much accurate. Only thing u can expect in the build before Legion or at least hotfix is unholy nerf and frost buff. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if DH and rogues get nerf. Don't get me wrong, I don't want DKs to get nerfed, I just know how Blizzard thinks. Every expansion we see mages and hunters on top, it would be nice change to see DKs, monks, warriors or enhance shamans on top

Thank you. It's too bad they didn't bother to go through the logs. You see these results over and over in warcraftlogs. Get ready for a bunch of people saying this doesn't count because they are top 20 world and say so.

[Nemesquish]

To the two who are linking logs and saying thats also what they seen from personal raid experience, please go check the REAL logs actually linked in the "By the Numbers" thread....From players in top guilds.

I dont believe I was below 6th or so on any fight unless I died to lack of healing.

Dk is fine.

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Yes you did. Quote the exact posts where I said everything you accused me of saying.


If you outdamaged an Unholy DK, Assassin/Sub Rogue as Frost then you are playing with your LFR buddies. That simply cannot happen in the current patch if both players are of equal skill.


There is no scenario in which Frost beats Unholy/Sub/Assassination in the current patch. Any such instance is a matter of inequality between the players skill.

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Thank you. It's too bad they didn't bother to go through the logs. You see these results over and over in warcraftlogs. Get ready for a bunch of people saying this doesn't count because they are top 20 world and say so.

People are saying that, because the players/Classes they are beating are also in top 20 guilds...cause you know...they're in the same guild.

Just because Lichlordxarthasyolo gets beat by the Lock in his Us 5102 guild, doesnt mean Dks are bad.

[Dracovian]

To the two who are linking logs and saying thats also what they seen from personal raid experience, please go check the REAL logs actually linked in the "By the Numbers" thread....From players in top guilds.

I dont believe I was below 6th or so on any fight unless I died to lack of healing.

Dk is fine.

Fine =/= best for progression.

[Deleted]

The same could be said about the sim you linked about X class instead, you shouldn't post sim results with out links to have it verified and scrutinized. As for what you seen in your raid, with out logs you can just be blowing smoke to make your "sim" more realistic than the others.

Btw...here is a link to an actual sim report http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...9c25c298a86ad4 that can be scrutinized because we can see things like gear, stats, APL etc

Unfortunatly logs are private so im not allowed to link you logs, but here is screenshot i took from these logs, they are not boss by boss, but its few encounter all at once, and its pretty much the same order on every boss. Hope it helps. http://i.imgur.com/RlUleuw.jpg and http://i.imgur.com/yofehnS.jpg ...

EDIT: U can see encounters in top left corner on each picture. I just clicked on encounter so i dont have to go boss by boss and make screenshots, cuz difference not that big.

[Mercane]

Fine =/= best for progression.

If you were worried about what's best for progression, you wouldn't worry about playing Frost- even if that was your favorite spec.

Feel free to link your armory so we can all be humbled by your speedy and efficient clearing of previous mythic raid tiers though, seriously- any time.

[Gemini Soul]

Unfortunatly logs are private so im not allowed to link you logs, but here is screenshot i took from these logs, they are not boss by boss, but its few encounter all at once, and its pretty much the same order on every boss. Hope it helps. http://i.imgur.com/RlUleuw.jpg and http://i.imgur.com/yofehnS.jpg ...

EDIT: U can see encounters in top left corner on each picture. I just clicked on encounter so i dont have to go boss by boss and make screenshots, cuz difference not that big.

With Sims/Logs pictures are not worth a thousand words.

I don't think you understanding my point.. So again, with out actual links we can't go thru and see whats what. Compare gear, see talents, see if they executed their rotation right, see if they made mistakes, see if there was any problems that caused their dps to be so low, or padding causing it to be so high. Put simply if we can't see and go thru any of the many things that can influence DPS, then all that was linked is smoke.

[Nemesquish]

Unfortunatly logs are private so im not allowed to link you logs, but here is screenshot i took from these logs, they are not boss by boss, but its few encounter all at once, and its pretty much the same order on every boss. Hope it helps. http://i.imgur.com/RlUleuw.jpg and http://i.imgur.com/yofehnS.jpg ...

EDIT: U can see encounters in top left corner on each picture. I just clicked on encounter so i dont have to go boss by boss and make screenshots, cuz difference not that big.

The picture you linked has the DK at a 54% uptime...If you put it at 97% which is the Rogues uptime, The Dps is nearly identical....And those pictures are a horrible way to judge even your experience.

[Scarzi]

lol @ sims. Rogue at the top with 2 specs. You know that is wrong.

[Christan]

The difference is bigger than 5%. By these statements you are saying that you think the player should be okay with doing something different than what he would prefer because of Blizzard's inability to balance correctly. That's what you are saying the player's mindset should be..

editing a quote to make your point fit is the same thing as putting words in my mouth. please stop.