Diversity in comic book

[Ivanstone]

In my eyes the gold standard is Adjectiveless X-Men, lets say from issue #1 in 1992 to right around Operation Zero Tolerence kind of brought an end to the Blue/Gold team idea.

In my eyes the poop standard is Adjectiveless X-Men which contributed to me stop reading X-men.

[grimniruk]

Sure doesn't seem to actually be the case; sales are up. http://www.theverge.com/2015/3/21/82...-by-30-percent

Endus, please. I know you're a pathetic Regressive but you simply don't read comics.

Of course Thor has tons of silly powers just like Superman did, because that's an old comic book.

Also, nice article from 2015 that blatantly lies They're going by "Oh the first 5 issues" and trying to cover up the reader rendition that has made Mighty Thor fall to fucking nothing over the months.

It's currently the 52nd selling comic book, Despite all the Cross referencing they did for FemThor, she does not sell. Aquaman is outselling her by a wide margin.

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Your entire argument here is that you don't LIKE the story. You haven't provided anything to justify calling it objectively BAD. And really, the only real reason you've given for not liking it basically boils down to "girls have cooties" or something.

Also, fuck off in trying to degrade my argument simply because you refuse to actually address it. I don't like the stories because they are shitty Thor stories. She is a shitty boring Thor no matter how you try to hide it.

She is BORING.

[Deleted]

Why do they need to be Racially Diverse?

Well for starters it's just plain nice. People from minority groups who don't usually get to see themselves represented and then when they do and it's good representation it feels good and they can squee over those characters. That goes for all kinds of diversity - race, sexuality, gender, age disability, whatever.

But I'm also someone who believes that fiction is very important. Our society is saturated in media, it has a real effect on our world and people listen to the messages that fiction tells. The fight for minorities in the real world is a very real one and (not to be too dramatic) a matter of life and death for many people. For those of us whose passion is writing stories, our way of adding to that fight is through our stories. Diverse stories give minorities people to look up to and relate to (inspiring fictional characters can get people through rough times) , they gives people new, non-stereotypical schemas of minorities, they change public opinion, slowly but surely.

[grimniruk]

Well for starters it's just plain nice. People from minority groups who don't usually get to see themselves represented and then when they do and it's good representation it feels good and they can squee over those characters. That goes for all kinds of diversity - race, sexuality, gender, age disability, whatever.

But I'm also someone who believes that fiction is very important. Our society is saturated in media, it has a real effect on our world and people listen to the messages that fiction tells. The fight for minorities in the real world is a very real one and (not to be too dramatic) a matter of life and death for many people. For those of us whose passion is writing stories, our way of adding to that fight is through our stories. Diverse stories give minorities people to look up to and relate to (inspiring fictional characters can get people through rough times) , they gives people new, non-stereotypical schemas of minorities, they change public opinion, slowly but surely.

So Fiction needs to reflect Agendas instead of simply be interesting stories?

This just reminds me how funny Big Bang Theory is on how Raj's favorite comic book hero is Thor. Because for some reason Indians can't like Norse Gods?

I guess this is your ideal Avengers or Justice League team?

[Dextroden]

Well for starters it's just plain nice.

Actually, it's really stupid looking as it paints the idea that readers can't like white characters if they aren't white and vice versa. It's the new age version of "Here. You can be falcon since you're both black."

It breeds tokenism, something I thought people despised. But, just like merit over race and gender was a lie, so was that.

[grimniruk]

Actually, it's really stupid looking as it paints the idea that readers can't like white characters if they aren't white and vice versa. It's the new age version of "Here. You can be falcon since you're both black."

It breeds tokenism, something I thought people despised. But, just like merit over race and gender was a lie, so was that.

Exactly my point. Characters should flow naturally, not be created in a horrible factory style to appeal to a committee.

[Kathandira]

Actually, it's really stupid looking as it paints the idea that readers can't like white characters if they aren't white and vice versa. It's the new age version of "Here. You can be falcon since you're both black."

It breeds tokenism, something I thought people despised. But, just like merit over race and gender was a lie, so was that.

In the 90's we were all about removing labels. The theme was everyone is just a human and their skin, religion, or interests don't matter.

Now, we have regressed to having more labels and categories than ever.

[Endus]

Endus, please. I know you're a pathetic Regressive but you simply don't read comics.

My Marvel Unlimited account says otherwise.

Also, nice article from 2015 that blatantly lies They're going by "Oh the first 5 issues" and trying to cover up the reader rendition that has made Mighty Thor fall to fucking nothing over the months.

It's currently the 52nd selling comic book, Despite all the Cross referencing they did for FemThor, she does not sell. Aquaman is outselling her by a wide margin.

I'll just note that there's actual data saying it's decently popular. While you've presented nothing but your wildly biased opinion. I tried finding critical reviews, but they're just difficult to locate; I've certainly not seen anyone saying the current Thor arc is bad, not to nearly the extent you're claiming.

[Deleted]

Actually, it's really stupid looking as it paints the idea that readers can't like white characters if they aren't white and vice versa. It's the new age version of "Here. You can be falcon since you're both black."

It breeds tokenism, something I thought people despised. But, just like merit over race and gender was a lie, so was that.

It doesn't mean that at all. Of course black people can like white characters and vice versa. And I'm not straight but there are still plenty of straight characters I love. But it's also nice to see people who you can relate to in that way, and a lot of people (kids especially) who face discrimination sometimes really need to hear that who are they are doesn't stop them from being awesome. If you've never been in that position it's easy to look at this as a non-issue, or worse as an annoyance.

[Ivanstone]

And I'll just remember we're not scolding FemThor for being useless at fighting we're scolding the idea because it's creatively bankrupt and the proof is in the terrible writing of FemThor.

Why is it poorly written? I can think of many, many people who think its fantastic and they don't have some axe to grind like you. They might ditch the comic at some future date if the writing goes south but that hasn't happened yet.

You're typing many, many words from a burner account because you're butt hurt that your Golden Boy doesn't have his mallet. If things were left in your not so capable hands we'd still be getting more of the same. That's what the anti-diversity rants are always about. You say you're about "genuine equality" and against "forced narratives" but if things were left as is, nothing would change and that's what you really want.

[Deleted]

So Fiction needs to reflect Agendas instead of simply be interesting stories?

There is no instead. A story being deliberately diverse does preclude it from being interesting.

[Faroth]

Honestly, I wish they'd introduce new characters and place them in different cities (New York is a little crowded). Let a small team build up in Chicago. Let a solo character patrol Seattle. Put a new character in Miami. Have someone in one of the major cities in Texas (Scarlet Spider was in Houston for a while).

You could start them as mini-series and see who clicks and who doesn't. If some are luke warm, let them have some guest appearances in the other titles before trying to launch their own ongoing series.

My biggest gripe, though, is Thor. How he lost the hammer makes no sense and it shoe horned a woman into Thor's title for shock value sales. I would have rather seen Thor actually do something to lose his worth and start his journey of redemption while the title was renamed The Mighty Sif and bring her to the big leagues, particularly adding her to the Avengers.

You know what would be a good title for this? New Mutants. It's gone silent for years, so why not use New Mutants to have a new team form? X-Men have always been a metaphor for racism and as such, I'd think a X-Men related title would be a no brainer for a lot of current social issues.

Well, y'know, if Marvel wasn't in their (supposedly not real) ongoing spat downplaying mutants to hit Fox. And if they still showed any remote concept of metaphor and subtlety rather than just blatantly slamming the writer's view in your face point blank.

[Deleted]

Exactly my point. Characters should flow naturally, not be created in a horrible factory style to appeal to a committee.

Ideally yes. But when what comes naturally from 90% of the media is a bunch of white guys with the odd black side kick, it's not surprising that people are going to start pushing agendas.

And besides which, you're incredibly naive if you think that what we currently get is "natural". Much of mainstream media is deliberately crafted and edited based on test audience feedback to appeal to specific demographics, and proposals for more diverse casts are often denied because they're seen as unmarketable.

[Faroth]

I'll just note that there's actual data saying it's decently popular. While you've presented nothing but your wildly biased opinion. I tried finding critical reviews, but they're just difficult to locate; I've certainly not seen anyone saying the current Thor arc is bad, not to nearly the extent you're claiming.

It's purely anecdotal, but a coworker of mine has loved the current Thor series, but he's been far more interested in the Odinson side of things than JaneThor.

[Dextroden]

It doesn't mean that at all. Of course black people can like white characters and vice versa. And I'm not straight but there are still plenty of straight characters I love. But it's also nice to see people who you can relate to in that way, and a lot of people (kids especially) who face discrimination sometimes really need to hear that who are they are doesn't stop them from being awesome. If you've never been in that position it's easy to look at this as a non-issue, or worse as an annoyance.

Why does Sam Wilson being black mean I have to relate to him? Why do you think im just sitting there oraying for black heroes and not quality heroes?

Plus, the comics have gone off a cliff with the police and secret black superhero meetings. Nothing like removing the relatability of someone by angling the story to a fraction of a fraction to look "Socially relevant".

I rolled my eyes at the Xmen episodes that were HEAVILY about discrimination and any show that did a "girls are just as good" episodes. Because those always relied on fucking caricatures to cause the plot issue.

Do you really think white/straight people as a whole are properly represented as a whole as just about ALL of them hate mutant allegories first blacks/gays?

[Ivanstone]

I tried finding critical reviews, but they're just difficult to locate; I've certainly not seen anyone saying the current Thor arc is bad, not to nearly the extent you're claiming.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...-thor-volume-1

After 4800 ratings a 4.1 isn't too shabby.

Also sales of the comic is holding steady at 50K paper copies per month. Its placing in ratings does vary depending on the event du jour (#20 in Mar16, #40 in Jun16).

[tehealadin]

To me it feels more like certain groups of people are forcing these things to happen whether or not it makes sense, because if they don't get their way they take to the internet to launch slander campaigns and generally throw a tantrum in the name of "diversity" which, let's be frank here, usually means "not white and/or male".

In short, having a black guy become Captain America because it fits the story (and comics always have alternate universes) is one thing, and there's no issue with it as long as it makes sense and the character brings a different take to the character of Captain America. Making a black guy Captain America because a loudmouth group of entitled "kids" on the internet are saying you're a racist because Captain America is always white is another thing entirely. Same with anything else, sexual preference, gender orientation, etc. You don't make a character a genderfluid polysexual half-black half-latinx dragonkin to appease some people who will scream that you are a bad person for not doing that, you do it because you have an interesting story/set of stories to tell with such a character.

Pretty much summed up my feelings. If it feels natural, go for it, I don't mind. Falcon being the Cap, it fits. When it is clearly forced based on ideological grounds, I do become resistant. And this itself becomes an issue. As those pushing for it will say "See!!! Racists!! they won't accept it!", when the issue is more the pushing of ideology. Not to say that some will always be against it, no matter what. However I am not convinced that they are the majority of critics.

Take Ghostbusters. A lot of the backlash was due to the blatant ideological grounds that it was based on. Most movie goers have no issue with female leads, this is largely a myth, one part due to Hollywood being out of touch (like when Eva Mendez was hired for Hitch because they felt the world wasn't ready for a white woman to hook up with Will Smith, only hardcore racists would be bothered, and they aren't a majority), and avoiding casting female leads at the same rate as men for big action films (like I said, this is more to do with Hollywood being out of touch, I guarentee Wonder Woman does well at the box office, most won't care that she is a woman, and this is aided further by not being an ideologically driven movie), and one part those who want to push an oppression narrative, who use the lack of female leads as evidence of a general dislike for female leads among the public.

If you give us a good female lead, most people will be good with it. Gender swapping characters in a blatant attempt to push ideology doesn't fit the bill, ignoring any need to make them interesting, their femininity is enough, their defining trait. People won't go for that. Make a character like Furiosa, who is a fucking badass, whose gender is not her defining (though clearly an important, but not all important) characteristic, and people will lap it up. Most folks just like good characters.

[Deleted]

Why does Sam Wilson being black mean I have to relate to him? Why do you think im just sitting there oraying for black heroes and not quality heroes?

Plus, the comics have gone off a cliff with the police and secret black superhero meetings. Nothing like removing the relatability of someone by angling the story to a fraction of a fraction to look "Socially relevant".

I rolled my eyes at the Xmen episodes that were HEAVILY about discrimination and any show that did a "girls are just as good" episodes. Because those always relied on fucking caricatures to cause the plot issue.

Do you really think white/straight people as a whole are properly represented as a whole as just about ALL of them hate mutant allegories first blacks/gays?

You don't have to relate to him. If you don't personally that's fine. But a lot of people are looking for that representation. That doesn't mean those characters can't also be fleshed out.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I would say my objection is its become tired and old. In general it would be nice if something new and original came out.

The other problem is that people introduce genderbend or racebend characters mainly to fist fuck us with an Aesop's fable that would make the old CBS/NBC after-school specials look tame and complicated.

i could agree the naming gets a little old but there has been some original stuff like the new ms marvel unlike say miles or any one else in a robot suit she has her own powers and her own role as an inhuman.

[Jotaux]

There is no instead. A story being deliberately diverse does preclude it from being interesting.

Except that when the focus of the story is diversity for diversity's sake you get comics like Sam Wilson's Captain America.