[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Ryuji]

Cata Ret had both Sacred shield (the strong one that triggered on low hp and increased all healing you received) and Last Word (which guaranteed a critical WoG on low hp targets) allowed you to purposefully drop low, pop cd's (which boosted the absorbs and healing) and surge back to full hp, turning the tables. In addition to this it had the old selfless healing, hugely amplifying heals on teammates. It had superior mobility, and it had FAR FAR FAR superior utility and healing.

I will take late Cata Ret over any of the more recent versions, it was strong and versatile, and had better PvP chances than at any other recent time.

Yes, it had a maintenance buff.....so bloody what.

You mentioned mobility slightly but I enjoyed having both Long Arm of the Law AND Pursuit of Justice together. Was really nice, I miss it.

[Kelemar]

@Lyons @Ryuji - I've never played during the Cata period, but I've tried the spec on a few insta 85 servers some time ago. I've hit on the dummies for a while and somehow the spec felt like it had a lot of downtime. Like... you basically had Judgment, Crusader Strike and Holy Wrath for instant spells, Consecration ate half of your mana and Exorcism needed a proc to be instant cast. Was there something else? Was I missing something? Maybe you could help me here...

I can imagine that the spec flowed pretty well with the T13 2p bonus (Judgment now also generated HP) but unfortunately the 2p was never available to me on these insta 85 servers.


But the past is the past. I'd rather see a Blizz response right now regarding the current Ret. Maybe we will finally get a gap closer in 8.0

[Demsi]

Inq was way worse than what we have now, hated it when it was introduced, not a single fun moment to be had with that spell.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Inq was way worse than what we have now, hated it when it was introduced, not a single fun moment to be had with that spell.

Okay we got it, Failegion Ret is less shit than Cata Ret, if oberved through the prism of Inquisition.

But what about mobility then and now? Utility? Healing potential?

[Deleted]

@Lyons @Ryuji - I've never played during the Cata period, but I've tried the spec on a few insta 85 servers some time ago. I've hit on the dummies for a while and somehow the spec felt like it had a lot of downtime. Like... you basically had Judgment, Crusader Strike and Holy Wrath for instant spells, Consecration ate half of your mana and Exorcism needed a proc to be instant cast. Was there something else? Was I missing something? Maybe you could help me here...

I can imagine that the spec flowed pretty well with the T13 2p bonus (Judgment now also generated HP) but unfortunately the 2p was never available to me on these insta 85 servers.


But the past is the past. I'd rather see a Blizz response right now regarding the current Ret. Maybe we will finally get a gap closer in 8.0

I don't remember having any trouble with Cata Ret in PvE, after the Mastery was changed. I consistently was top of my raid for Heroic progress, the only competition came from legendary geared Rogues near the end of Dragon Soul, and I could edge them out with good Gurthalack procs. I actually really enjoyed racing dps on Ultraxion. Back then consecration was just a filler when you had downtime, but even that is better than it's current form.

As for a gap closer, I'm calling it, Ret will never have a 'normal' gapcloser. They just hate the idea of it for whatever reason. The class fantasy reason is BS, because the fantasy of justice being inescapable and the paladins hunting down foes to judge them has always been part of our identity. This was previously represented by the fact that for the last ten years we have had the highest passive runspeed in the game (with the sole exception of feral druids for obvious reasons) this combined with the old Judgment of Justice and Blessing of Freedom/Cleanse back when they were strong made us a kind of 'we will catch up to you eventually' class, were we had a kind of mobility of attrition, preventing their movement while having our own unimpeded.

That no longer functions.

I have a new idea for Paladin mobility, abolish Hand of Hindrance, abolish Holy Pony, abolish Seal of Light. NO ability to slow, no ability to sprint. Then makes Ret completely immune to roots and slows, a spec passive, unstoppable justice.

This may sound completely broken on paper, but think about it. It provides no instant gapclosing to keep up with leaps and blinks, you can't reposition yourself or flee from combat, what you can do is make your way towards something and know that nothing short of a hard cc is going to put a dent in your advance. I think this is perfect for spec fantasy, and would not be broken in the current PvP world of blinks, teleports, leaps, rolls, recalls, disengages, sprints etc.

Imagine colliding with a frost mage, to have him frostnova you, and it simply melts away before you, not even breaking your stride.

If that isn't class fantasy I don't know what is.

[Meagree]

Okay we got it, Failegion Ret is less shit than Cata Ret, if oberved through the prism of Inquisition.

But what about mobility then and now? Utility? Healing potential?

We got nerfed, better cry my fucking eyes out.

[Morally Grey Storm]

We got nerfed, better cry my fucking eyes out.

savage as feth!

[Meagree]

-snip-

Actually a big fan of this idea. Seems pretty awesome.

I mean, it'd be total ass for PvE and any solo content, but really cool for PvP. Maybe a PvP talent?

[Demsi]

Okay we got it, Failegion Ret is less shit than Cata Ret, if oberved through the prism of Inquisition.

But what about mobility then and now? Utility? Healing potential?

Mobility was just as bad in cata, maybe even worse.

Utility was the same as ever, only difference is that in cata Sacrifice did not remove magic effects. (so it's the same as now)

Healing was kinda meh, we had good offhealing but selfhealing was the same as we have now. (cast 3 flash of light, maybe get to 50% hp, and oom)

[Morally Grey Storm]

Mobility was just as bad in cata, maybe even worse.

Utility was the same as ever, only difference is that in cata Sacrifice did not remove magic effects. (so it's the same as now)

Healing was kinda meh, we had good offhealing but selfhealing was the same as we have now. (cast 3 flash of light, maybe get to 50% hp, and oom)

so with Emancipate and double HoF, our mobility was worse back then?
I'm not sure I'm following

Utility-wise we HAD HoSac, SH FoL instacasts + Last Word crit full-hp heals for some cheesy cheese

Healing-wise we HAD baseline WoG+Last Word critheals, insta free FoL casts through SH, not to mention the choicee of HL,DL,FoL and HR with WoG as means to heal.

[Ramiell]

Fist of Justice needs to be removed from the talent tree. It feels way too mandatory for PvP. It should be a passive ability for Retribution. I'd like to see a new CC spell put in its place. We already have a single target and an AoE CC on the tier. Maybe they could add either a single target knockback or some sort of area denial wall/barrier. It could be useful for breaking up pillar humping or keeping players in/out of an area.

Now that Divine Steed is baseline (30 sec CD and snare/root immunity plz), I kinda want to see an entire tier dedicated to it. They have Caviler for added mobility. They could add sustain and damage talents.

Warhorse - Your Divine Steed will persist for X seconds after you dismount and attack your target.
Thoroughbred - Your health and mana will replenish and an increased rate for X seconds after you dismount your steed.

Also, I saw that they just removed Death's Advance from Unholy DK's. A passive like that would help Ret out immensely.

P.S. Still waiting on my Libram to arrive bruh.

[Demsi]

so with Emancipate and double HoF, our mobility was worse back then?
I'm not sure I'm following

Utility-wise we HAD HoSac, SH FoL instacasts + Last Word crit full-hp heals for some cheesy cheese

Healing-wise we HAD baseline WoG+Last Word critheals, insta free FoL casts through SH, not to mention the choicee of HL,DL,FoL and HR with WoG as means to heal.

Emancipate and double HoF came in MoP, the only mobility spell we had in Cataclysm was Pursuit of justice, that only procced if you were 15 yards or more away from your target, wich of course mages and hunters took advantage of.

Last word crits were good yeah, but our selfhealing wasn't that good honestly, not to mention the god awful cd we got on Word of glory.

[Deleted]

Actually a big fan of this idea. Seems pretty awesome.

I mean, it'd be total ass for PvE and any solo content, but really cool for PvP. Maybe a PvP talent?

Could replace unbound freedom in the PvP tree.

Talent: Unstoppable Justice. You are now permanently immune to roots and slows. Replaces Hand of Hindrance and Divine Steed.

There, now PvE can keep the pony.

- - - Updated - - -

Emancipate and double HoF came in MoP, the only mobility spell we had in Cataclysm was Pursuit of justice, that only procced if you were 15 yards or more away from your target, wich of course mages and hunters took advantage of.

Last word crits were good yeah, but our selfhealing wasn't that good honestly, not to mention the god awful cd we got on Word of glory.

Our selfhealing and offhealing were so good that it enabled triple dps as a viable dps 3v3 choice for the first time in the game's history. It was the strongest hybrid healing that has ever been. I don't know how you could conceive of it as not being 'that good.'

[Demsi]

Could replace unbound freedom in the PvP tree.

Talent: Unstoppable Justice. You are now permanently immune to roots and slows. Replaces Hand of Hindrance and Divine Steed.

There, now PvE can keep the pony.

- - - Updated - - -



Our selfhealing and offhealing were so good that it enabled triple dps as a viable dps 3v3 choice for the first time in the game's history. It was the strongest hybrid healing that has ever been. I don't know how you could conceive of it as not being 'that good.'

I'm mainly talking about selfhealing, i wont deny that Offhealing was bonkers, since i could top off my warrior mate from 15 to 100% with WoG.

Selfhealing wasn't that good, you used 3 flash of light and then you went oom, sure you could use WoG, but seing as Holy power generation was so slow, using it in combat was never really an option unless you had zealotry active.

[nyc81991]

I don't understand why Blizzard took away "Emancipate" from Ret. It didn't even clear all snares and it only prioritized roots.

They need to add back Emancipate and either give us a passive movement speed buff or make it so Divine Steed acts as a personal Freedom while active. (Even then mobility still won't be that great.)

[Deleted]

I'm mainly talking about selfhealing, i wont deny that Offhealing was bonkers, since i could top off my warrior mate from 15 to 100% with WoG.

Selfhealing wasn't that good, you used 3 flash of light and then you went oom, sure you could use WoG, but seing as Holy power generation was so slow, using it in combat was never really an option unless you had zealotry active.

WoG was a Lay on Hands when you had Sacred Shield up, enemies would generally have to go through my hp bar about 4 times before I was in any real danger. I distinctly remember WoD critting for around 155k when HP pools were about 150k. That was then increased even further on teammates.

Hp generation was not really a problem given you could do it from range quite succinctly.

I'm actually going to list some of the fantastic things we had in cata that are now gone.

Sacred Shield: (drop below 30% hp to gain a shield proportional to attackpower, that increases healing received by 20%, 1 min CD)

Eye for an Eye: All magic hits on you have a 40% chance to be reflected at 30% damage back at attackers.

Cleanse removing slows (Acts of Sacrifice I believe the talent was called)

Last Word: WoG critical chance increased by around 60% when healing a target below 35%.

Long Arm of the Law (I'm sure everyone knows what this does)

Instant cast Repentance without having to sacrifice HoJ CD (most people forget this was a thing, we had far superior cc)

Selfless Healer : Increase WoG healing by 50% on allies and increase your own damage dealt for 2% per holypower spent. This was easily a fullheal on any low target, on a relatively short cd.

Turn Evil: Had uses for Gargoyle/Lichbourne Dk's, Ghouls, Lock Demons etc

Protector of the Innocent: Casting a heal on any ally also heals you.

BoSac: Only lost this recently but worth bringing up

HoW from range, Exo from range, Judgment from range, all generate holypower.

Seal/Judge of Justice. Divine Plea. Seal of Light for defensive sustain.

I'm sure there are more. The only Time Ret was close to late cata was early WotlK, and I would argue that mechanically Cata Ret was the strongest it's ever been, just early Wotlk Ret had broken numbers (but still had huge issues outside of that, like mana, wings being dispellable, etc etc).

We had it good in cata, all things considered. The talent tree revamp hit us harder than most because most of our hybrid utility/versatility was lost and did not become baseline.

[Morally Grey Storm]

For the sake of holding truth to argument, exo and Judgement didn't generate hopo in cata. We only had CS fir that. Judgement started generating only with twopiece dragonslaying setbonus.

[Ryuji]

For the sake of holding truth to argument, exo and Judgement didn't generate hopo in cata. We only had CS fir that. Judgement started generating only with twopiece dragonslaying setbonus.

Only with 2-piece T13, true, but we also had a bit better synergy overall with stuff like the old Divine Purpose:

"The following attacks have a 15% chance to cause your next Holy Power ability to consume no Holy Power and to cast as if 3 Holy Power were consumed:

- Judgement
- Exorcism
- Templar's Verdict
- Divine Storm
- Inquisition
- Holy Wrath
- Hammer of Wrath"

Also had Sanctity of Battle which was, "Haste effects lower the cooldown of your Crusader trike and Divine Storm abilities." Pair that with Judgements of the Pure back then and Judgement increased your casting and melee haste by 9% for 1 minute and you regen'd mana a bit better in combat since Consecration and Holy Wrath ate your mana badly. Combo all that good stuff together and you'd sometimes have bad RNG but when stuff just worked, it worked.

This was also back when Divine Storm generated HP if it hit 4 targets though and kinda just tickled people. Did still heal(though it's gonna heal again in Legion it looks like). Also had Zealotry which made CS give 3 HP when used and the buff lasted 20 seconds on a 2 minute cd. That + wings + guardian = the burst was real. I didn't PvP much in Cata but the times that I did, I didn't feel like I had gotten knee-capped trying to keep up with other classes zipping about.

Now it's just...eh. I mostly do PvE so I can't say much for PvP but the PvP that I've done since 7.0 feels terrible. Feel like I'd do better on any of my other melee characters, particularly WW monk. I know things will change once artifact's fully beefed up at 110 and onwards but I still have doubts about Ret having much success in PvP, let alone rated stuff. PvE seems alright for single-target at least though so... whoo?

[Deleted]

For the sake of holding truth to argument, exo and Judgement didn't generate hopo in cata. We only had CS fir that. Judgement started generating only with twopiece dragonslaying setbonus.

Must have been remembering the setbonus, but I believe it was fairly mandatory in arena as well. On the other hand holypower wasn't even that big a deal since verdict did very little damage, most of our damage came from seal/autos/fillers, TV barely did more damage than any of the builders.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Taste the Wisdom of the Northern Crown.
Bathe in the glory of total Retribution.
Get on the nostalgia train.

tBC Greatness:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvmxORefCss

even Cataclysm could not withstand the burning rush of True Retribution:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp8_MXB_d8s

Molon Labe by descendants of Leonidas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzBPFlflRIE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH2hCCQLgJU