Hey you keep bringing up that the comic is bad. If its bad why are you bothering to say anything at all? You keep assigning motivations to Marvel and Jason Aaron that may not even actually exist. And you paranoidly assume that people are trying to shut down discussion by dismissing critics as intolerant.
Why indeed?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_At...thern_Strategy
Gotta love that coded language.
What idiot shills? Or you mean people who don't share your opinion. Sorry, life's rough. Wear a helmet. A winged one if you like.
I brought it up a total of one time and explained why when asked. I'm offering my opinion because I like comics, Thor being one of them, and disliked the changes to it and outlined my reasons why as well as conjecture as to their motivations. Which seemed to be somewhat validated with marvel's release of Secret Wars and shitcanning Fem Thor in the process. We all knew it was only temporary to cash in on societal issues at the time, which is just as insulting to feminists imo.
Do you have anything contrary to offer on this? Or is "if you don't like it, then leave" the grand culmination of your whole argument here?
What coded language exactly? Are you implying that I've been covertly racist here? I would love to see proof of that. Otherwise this means exactly fuck all. You don't get to just call people racists/bigots/misogynists without proof of it.
What was it you said about "dismissing critics as intolerant"? Because that's basically what you're doing here. An "idiot shill" would be someone who discounts any and all criticisms using blanket statements; such as chalking it up to "misogyny" rather than actually arguing the points being made. "Reductive morons" would be a synonym.
My counter? Thor is still an ongoing comic. You know the one with the girl in it. It was done because Jason Aaron had a couple of ideas. Marvel and its fanbase agrees with those ideas. Because the comic is still ongoing. That's 18 issues of Jane Foster whacking people with a hammer. I just put out the new issue for sale yesterday.
If it was meant to be a temporary cash grab why does it seem not temporary? Again, you are assigning motivations where none may exist.
Shrug. I don't have proof. You got me. At least none beyond your fantastical ideas of how Marvel and its marketing works. Maybe you have some copies of internal memos about how Marvel is attempting to hoodwink the comic buying populace by using cheep gender shifting gimmicks.
So only you're allowed to do it. Sorry my bad.
Similarly, people can't tell if other people are enjoying the product or are simply imbeciles with a pathological grudge against imagined bigotry.
It cuts both ways.
When confronted with that impossibility to tell, some people default to perceive the other in only one of those ways. Thus we get the kulturkampf.
It's fun because, through restrain, we all can keep a passive aggressive attitude until someone comes along and jumps one of those sharks, and we then can start with the buzzwords.
We can keep this impasse for days on end:
Are you genuinely giving the benefit of the doubt, or simply baiting response hoping for some more explicit hateful comment?
Am I genuinely picturing camps from the outside, or am I concern trolling?.
I mean, I could tell you that I enjoy these threads because I like subversion, and leave it at that. But do I like subverting gender expectations? or subverting this pseudo-debate? (spoilers: I like both, but I know the framing makes me suspect of deception).
Ultimately, I think this type of inquisition ("this argument is oddly similar to this other hate-filled one; are you sure you're not one of those pesky [biggot/sjw]?") is valuable. Because haters often hide behind that curtain. But I'd question if it's good allocation of rhetorical resources, and if it's not hurting us all for no good reason.
You know what pisses me off about threads like these that pop up EVERY GODDAMED TIME this happens? Most of the people bitching DONT EVEN READ COMICS!
Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.
Just, be kind.
I don't rage about these things. I'm just not interested in writers and comic book companies desire to virtue-signal, so I stop buying books that do those things.
right now Im getting:
extraordinary and uncanny xmen, old man logan, punisher, dr strange ( and the new team book soon), both cap books ( didnt mind the stuff with falcon because he's been Caps best pal for ages), amazing spiderman ( the PP book), spiderman 2099 ( love that setting)
i dropped thor awhile back because I dont care about thors girlfriend, just the odinson himself, and dropped hulk because wtf some kid?
dc I get: both superman books, superman/batman, batman and det comics, jla and justice league, nightwing, aquaman, and getting trinity soon
notice something there? I avoid obvious sjw projects
EDIT: and All star batman, good first issue. I highly recommend the new Punisher book. Becky Cloonan is approaching Garth Ennis levels of quality on this. His 5 years on Punsiher MAX is seriously in my top 5 favs ever.
Last edited by Berengil; 2016-08-19 at 12:56 AM.
See now this is actually something, good job. I was still under the impression that it was killed due to this news last year. So that's one problem off the list. Plenty more to go though, such as Jane Foster being an awful choice over Sif et al.
You still seem to have issues understanding that it's not a "cuz she's a girl" thing. I could not give any less of a shit about who is what. I care about story and have made this clear many times.
I express what I feel based on what I see. The entire reason behind the AN/AD series is entirely built upon capitalizing on today's market. That should be obvious. Alex Alonso has on multiple occasions alluded to the new direction and driving diversity to be more representative of the modern world. Marvel is at its core a business. Ignoring the whole concept that they're using it to capitalize on a market is a bit naive.
I am not dismissing criticism. I will obviously dismiss bullshit calling me a racist without proof. I asked for an argument against, you provided one, this actually pleases me because I like discussing different viewpoints. The disappointing part is it took this long to get there.
Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.
Just, be kind.
The simplest solution is to let it slide. Currently, Thor is successful and no amount of hand waving will change that. Comics are a bit more diverse than they used to be and we might get some newer readers in because of it.
White males forever wasn't going to happen regardless and the so-called "gimmicks" will either work or they wont. Just like any other story element. If it doesn't work, you get your wish and the book gets the axe. If it does work, maybe admit you were wrong and move on.
Like the Ghostbusters movie. There's obviously a lot of hate for it but the movie is still somewhat successful. Critics liked it and ticket sales were pretty good. Although not enough to justify its bloated production costs. Maybe they needed to take a page from Deadpool?
This a thousand times this.
The industry leaders (DC & Marvel) are so afraid to upset the readers that they
a) bring back characters from the dead (over and over again) and
b) are afraid to add new characters to the established titles.
And because of this all they are left with is changing race/gender for a few core characters knowing full well that they are going to revert this at the earliest possible time.
I will agree that Miles Morales as a character works but he isn't Spider-Man and never will be the only Spidey is Peter Parker and for that reason you have two comics series and not 1.
Thor is now a woman (Jane Foster) cool but if you haven't noticed Thor (the original) is getting his own comic again why well sales were down so they brought him back and I'll bet that within the next year or two he is the Mighty Thor once again.
Captain America is now Sam Wilson and I think that is very cool but if you haven't noticed Cap the original is back.
The one series (multiples) that showed true diversity were all the X titles but since most mutants now no longer exist, got killed etc etc they are down to a handful of the old reliable characters they can't get rid of that easy.
Oh I forgot they are also going to replace Iron Man it seems with a new female character of colour who is a genius and will be the temporary replacement of Tony Stark until they bring him back (he might not even leave, not sure yet as its a new story).
As to new characters in Marvel well that is the new Ms. Marvel (yup we know the name but the young lady in question is brand new and works as a character) and Blue marvel, very well done character and seems to become a headliner in the overall Marvel Universe of which I approve.
I will also add Amadeus Cho despite him being around for some time but he is the new Hulk and so far I like him as a character
Now the above is yes all Marvel but that is simply because at least Marvel is at least changing genders/races in the comics where as from what I can tell no such thing has happened in the DC universe.
It seems to me that most of the good (my opinion) new stuff comes from either Valiant, Dark Horse, Image & IDW comics as they at least are pushing boundries.
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Except I still don't know how to separate you from those who are genuinely hateful. Not acting in a conspiratorial manner might help. Furthermore, I thought that having Jane take up the hammer is an excellent idea and something no one saw coming.
There are multiple Avengers titles. ANAD, New, Uncanny, Ultimates, AForce. The title you read is based off of which characters you like and the creative team's abilities. There's no conspiracy beyond: "Read all the Avengers comics or you're missing out."
Last edited by Ivanstone; 2016-08-19 at 01:18 AM.
Not call the people who didn't like the trailer misogynists and have the stars going on interviews further insulting them?
And not make meh at best movie marketing on rebooting a franchise no one was clamoring for in an Era where people are getting fed up with reboots?
And not overhype the fact that women are the primary, majority or entirety of the starring roles in your movie, when that has been a thing quite some time?
And say fuck you to people R rated movies need to be edited down for children? (This needs to happen more.)