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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Freese View Post
    A more important question: How does Marvel include more diversity without "forcing" it onto their readers? Why are some white people demanding that diversity be displayed only on their terms? "Oh you can have your diversity in your comics, but make sure that it follows THESE guidelines so that you're not forcing your diversity onto me kthx."
    Because even black people tend to not like diversity when it's done for shit reasons..

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Freese View Post
    Unlike a vast majority of posters in this thread, I presume, I actually read these comics and most of them are very good despite what people are saying here. I am fine with diversity in comics because young children and adolescence read these comics. They need to know that their diversity is part of the "normal" spectrum of the human experience.

    We transmit our cultural beliefs and values in our art. Thus, Marvel is not expressing the belief of, "White people are crazy and terrible!" Rather, they are saying through their art that diversity is part of the human experience and these diverse human beings deserve just as much as white people to be represented in art.

    If you are openminded, you should read the first volume of Jason Aaron's The Mighty Thor featuring a female Thor. It's amazing.
    See this is a very good point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Ah come on Granyala, there's several possible reasons for it. A few that would get us banned here like pointing out a deficite in his mental capacity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oktoberfest View Post
    Man I swear, every time someone uses the term 'Critical Thinking' I want to pop em in the mouth.

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradewind View Post
    I already outlined my dislike of the female Thor series. What do you want me to do? Explain it again? Or are you just fishing? Hoping that I lose my shit and go off on some racially charged diatribe about "the blacks" and "the womens" invading muh comic books. Keep fishing in that case because I don't need to use some reductive bullshit to explain why something is bad.
    Hey you keep bringing up that the comic is bad. If its bad why are you bothering to say anything at all? You keep assigning motivations to Marvel and Jason Aaron that may not even actually exist. And you paranoidly assume that people are trying to shut down discussion by dismissing critics as intolerant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tradewind View Post
    Also what the fuck does "State's Rights" have to do with anything? Especially since I'm not even American. Stay on point.
    Why indeed?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_At...thern_Strategy
    Gotta love that coded language.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tradewind View Post
    That's not a criticism of the character, those are in the previous half dozen sentences. That's a criticism of idiot shills.
    What idiot shills? Or you mean people who don't share your opinion. Sorry, life's rough. Wear a helmet. A winged one if you like.

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradewind View Post
    I also want to know who was in charge of making all the meta human icons. Did Lexcorp shop that out or did someone in marketing come up with them?
    The answer my friends and I decided on was Lex thought about them in between filling jars of pee.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    Forced being the key word. Context is important. If you're making Thor a female just because you want to force diversity, you're making a token character.
    SO when he was a frog? Or got replaced by a horse demon? or died? Those arent forced? What qualifies as forced, cuz it seems like you only think it's forced when it's diversity. In which case the problem isnt the forcing, it's the diversity that bothers you.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by BreakerOfWills View Post
    SO when he was a frog? Or got replaced by a horse demon? or died? Those arent forced? What qualifies as forced, cuz it seems like you only think it's forced when it's diversity. In which case the problem isnt the forcing, it's the diversity that bothers you.
    Yea, and then it boils down to a few reasons why it bothers them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Ah come on Granyala, there's several possible reasons for it. A few that would get us banned here like pointing out a deficite in his mental capacity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oktoberfest View Post
    Man I swear, every time someone uses the term 'Critical Thinking' I want to pop em in the mouth.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Hey you keep bringing up that the comic is bad. If its bad why are you bothering to say anything at all? You keep assigning motivations to Marvel and Jason Aaron that may not even actually exist. And you paranoidly assume that people are trying to shut down discussion by dismissing critics as intolerant.
    I brought it up a total of one time and explained why when asked. I'm offering my opinion because I like comics, Thor being one of them, and disliked the changes to it and outlined my reasons why as well as conjecture as to their motivations. Which seemed to be somewhat validated with marvel's release of Secret Wars and shitcanning Fem Thor in the process. We all knew it was only temporary to cash in on societal issues at the time, which is just as insulting to feminists imo.

    Do you have anything contrary to offer on this? Or is "if you don't like it, then leave" the grand culmination of your whole argument here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Why indeed?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_At...thern_Strategy
    Gotta love that coded language.
    What coded language exactly? Are you implying that I've been covertly racist here? I would love to see proof of that. Otherwise this means exactly fuck all. You don't get to just call people racists/bigots/misogynists without proof of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    What idiot shills? Or you mean people who don't share your opinion. Sorry, life's rough. Wear a helmet. A winged one if you like.
    What was it you said about "dismissing critics as intolerant"? Because that's basically what you're doing here. An "idiot shill" would be someone who discounts any and all criticisms using blanket statements; such as chalking it up to "misogyny" rather than actually arguing the points being made. "Reductive morons" would be a synonym.
    "You six-piece Chicken McNobody."
    Quote Originally Posted by RICH816 View Post
    You are a legend thats why.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradewind View Post
    I brought it up a total of one time and explained why when asked. I'm offering my opinion because I like comics, Thor being one of them, and disliked the changes to it and outlined my reasons why as well as conjecture as to their motivations. Which seemed to be somewhat validated with marvel's release of Secret Wars and shitcanning Fem Thor in the process. We all knew it was only temporary to cash in on societal issues at the time, which is just as insulting to feminists imo.
    My counter? Thor is still an ongoing comic. You know the one with the girl in it. It was done because Jason Aaron had a couple of ideas. Marvel and its fanbase agrees with those ideas. Because the comic is still ongoing. That's 18 issues of Jane Foster whacking people with a hammer. I just put out the new issue for sale yesterday.

    If it was meant to be a temporary cash grab why does it seem not temporary? Again, you are assigning motivations where none may exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tradewind View Post
    What coded language exactly? Are you implying that I've been covertly racist here? I would love to see proof of that. Otherwise this means exactly fuck all. You don't get to just call people racists/bigots/misogynists without proof of it.
    Shrug. I don't have proof. You got me. At least none beyond your fantastical ideas of how Marvel and its marketing works. Maybe you have some copies of internal memos about how Marvel is attempting to hoodwink the comic buying populace by using cheep gender shifting gimmicks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tradewind View Post
    What was it you said about "dismissing critics as intolerant"? Because that's basically what you're doing here. An "idiot shill" would be someone who discounts any and all criticisms using blanket statements; such as chalking it up to "misogyny" rather than actually arguing the points being made. "Reductive morons" would be a synonym.
    So only you're allowed to do it. Sorry my bad.

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Do you honestly and passionately believe that The Mighty Thor is poorly written? Or are you just thinking up reasons to shit on the comic because you hate that your Golden Boy lost his mallet to a girl? I really can't tell.
    Similarly, people can't tell if other people are enjoying the product or are simply imbeciles with a pathological grudge against imagined bigotry.
    It cuts both ways.

    When confronted with that impossibility to tell, some people default to perceive the other in only one of those ways. Thus we get the kulturkampf.
    It's fun because, through restrain, we all can keep a passive aggressive attitude until someone comes along and jumps one of those sharks, and we then can start with the buzzwords.

    We can keep this impasse for days on end:
    Are you genuinely giving the benefit of the doubt, or simply baiting response hoping for some more explicit hateful comment?
    Am I genuinely picturing camps from the outside, or am I concern trolling?.

    I mean, I could tell you that I enjoy these threads because I like subversion, and leave it at that. But do I like subverting gender expectations? or subverting this pseudo-debate? (spoilers: I like both, but I know the framing makes me suspect of deception).
    Ultimately, I think this type of inquisition ("this argument is oddly similar to this other hate-filled one; are you sure you're not one of those pesky [biggot/sjw]?") is valuable. Because haters often hide behind that curtain. But I'd question if it's good allocation of rhetorical resources, and if it's not hurting us all for no good reason.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    My counter? Thor is still an ongoing comic. You know the one with the girl in it. It was done because Jason Aaron had a couple of ideas. Marvel and its fanbase agrees with those ideas. Because the comic is still ongoing. That's 18 issues of Jane Foster whacking people with a hammer. I just put out the new issue for sale yesterday.

    If it was meant to be a temporary cash grab why does it seem not temporary? Again, you are assigning motivations where none may exist.



    Shrug. I don't have proof. You got me. At least none beyond your fantastical ideas of how Marvel and its marketing works. Maybe you have some copies of internal memos about how Marvel is attempting to hoodwink the comic buying populace by using cheep gender shifting gimmicks.



    So only you're allowed to do it. Sorry my bad.
    I look forward to you going back to the Paul Fieg "You didn't like the trailer because you're all dim-witted, obese, women hating turbonerds" school of argument.

  11. #411
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    You know what pisses me off about threads like these that pop up EVERY GODDAMED TIME this happens? Most of the people bitching DONT EVEN READ COMICS!
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  12. #412
    Herald of the Titans Berengil's Avatar
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    I don't rage about these things. I'm just not interested in writers and comic book companies desire to virtue-signal, so I stop buying books that do those things.

    right now Im getting:

    extraordinary and uncanny xmen, old man logan, punisher, dr strange ( and the new team book soon), both cap books ( didnt mind the stuff with falcon because he's been Caps best pal for ages), amazing spiderman ( the PP book), spiderman 2099 ( love that setting)

    i dropped thor awhile back because I dont care about thors girlfriend, just the odinson himself, and dropped hulk because wtf some kid?

    dc I get: both superman books, superman/batman, batman and det comics, jla and justice league, nightwing, aquaman, and getting trinity soon

    notice something there? I avoid obvious sjw projects

    EDIT: and All star batman, good first issue. I highly recommend the new Punisher book. Becky Cloonan is approaching Garth Ennis levels of quality on this. His 5 years on Punsiher MAX is seriously in my top 5 favs ever.
    Last edited by Berengil; 2016-08-19 at 12:56 AM.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    You know what pisses me off about threads like these that pop up EVERY GODDAMED TIME this happens? Most of the people bitching DONT EVEN READ COMICS!
    To be fair, most people don't read comics, period. That's why the line is always "YOU RUINED MY CHILDHOOD" as opposed to "YOU ARE RUINING MY CURRENTLY PREFERRED ENTERTAINMENT OPTION."

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    My counter? Thor is still an ongoing comic. You know the one with the girl in it. It was done because Jason Aaron had a couple of ideas. Marvel and its fanbase agrees with those ideas. Because the comic is still ongoing. That's 18 issues of Jane Foster whacking people with a hammer. I just put out the new issue for sale yesterday.

    If it was meant to be a temporary cash grab why does it seem not temporary? Again, you are assigning motivations where none may exist.
    See now this is actually something, good job. I was still under the impression that it was killed due to this news last year. So that's one problem off the list. Plenty more to go though, such as Jane Foster being an awful choice over Sif et al.

    You still seem to have issues understanding that it's not a "cuz she's a girl" thing. I could not give any less of a shit about who is what. I care about story and have made this clear many times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Shrug. I don't have proof. You got me. At least none beyond your fantastical ideas of how Marvel and its marketing works. Maybe you have some copies of internal memos about how Marvel is attempting to hoodwink the comic buying populace by using cheep gender shifting gimmicks.
    I express what I feel based on what I see. The entire reason behind the AN/AD series is entirely built upon capitalizing on today's market. That should be obvious. Alex Alonso has on multiple occasions alluded to the new direction and driving diversity to be more representative of the modern world. Marvel is at its core a business. Ignoring the whole concept that they're using it to capitalize on a market is a bit naive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    So only you're allowed to do it. Sorry my bad.
    I am not dismissing criticism. I will obviously dismiss bullshit calling me a racist without proof. I asked for an argument against, you provided one, this actually pleases me because I like discussing different viewpoints. The disappointing part is it took this long to get there.
    "You six-piece Chicken McNobody."
    Quote Originally Posted by RICH816 View Post
    You are a legend thats why.

  15. #415
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macaquerie View Post
    To be fair, most people don't read comics, period. That's why the line is always "YOU RUINED MY CHILDHOOD" as opposed to "YOU ARE RUINING MY CURRENTLY PREFERRED ENTERTAINMENT OPTION."
    Yeah, and that's my problem. Suddenly half the country is up in arms over 10% of the country's entertainment. It's like those mothers against Deadpool because there's sex in it and they won't let their 13-year-old watch a gore-fest until there's no sex.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by nextormento View Post
    We can keep this impasse for days on end:
    Are you genuinely giving the benefit of the doubt, or simply baiting response hoping for some more explicit hateful comment?
    Am I genuinely picturing camps from the outside, or am I concern trolling?.
    The simplest solution is to let it slide. Currently, Thor is successful and no amount of hand waving will change that. Comics are a bit more diverse than they used to be and we might get some newer readers in because of it.

    White males forever wasn't going to happen regardless and the so-called "gimmicks" will either work or they wont. Just like any other story element. If it doesn't work, you get your wish and the book gets the axe. If it does work, maybe admit you were wrong and move on.

    Like the Ghostbusters movie. There's obviously a lot of hate for it but the movie is still somewhat successful. Critics liked it and ticket sales were pretty good. Although not enough to justify its bloated production costs. Maybe they needed to take a page from Deadpool?

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by mayhem008 View Post
    What's the issue with making new characters?
    This a thousand times this.

    The industry leaders (DC & Marvel) are so afraid to upset the readers that they
    a) bring back characters from the dead (over and over again) and
    b) are afraid to add new characters to the established titles.
    And because of this all they are left with is changing race/gender for a few core characters knowing full well that they are going to revert this at the earliest possible time.

    I will agree that Miles Morales as a character works but he isn't Spider-Man and never will be the only Spidey is Peter Parker and for that reason you have two comics series and not 1.
    Thor is now a woman (Jane Foster) cool but if you haven't noticed Thor (the original) is getting his own comic again why well sales were down so they brought him back and I'll bet that within the next year or two he is the Mighty Thor once again.
    Captain America is now Sam Wilson and I think that is very cool but if you haven't noticed Cap the original is back.
    The one series (multiples) that showed true diversity were all the X titles but since most mutants now no longer exist, got killed etc etc they are down to a handful of the old reliable characters they can't get rid of that easy.
    Oh I forgot they are also going to replace Iron Man it seems with a new female character of colour who is a genius and will be the temporary replacement of Tony Stark until they bring him back (he might not even leave, not sure yet as its a new story).

    As to new characters in Marvel well that is the new Ms. Marvel (yup we know the name but the young lady in question is brand new and works as a character) and Blue marvel, very well done character and seems to become a headliner in the overall Marvel Universe of which I approve.
    I will also add Amadeus Cho despite him being around for some time but he is the new Hulk and so far I like him as a character

    Now the above is yes all Marvel but that is simply because at least Marvel is at least changing genders/races in the comics where as from what I can tell no such thing has happened in the DC universe.

    It seems to me that most of the good (my opinion) new stuff comes from either Valiant, Dark Horse, Image & IDW comics as they at least are pushing boundries.
    Want to play SWTOR again and get 7 free days of subscription access + free ingame goodies: http://www.swtor.com/r/d5LnJT

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradewind View Post
    See now this is actually something, good job. I was still under the impression that it was killed due to this news last year. So that's one problem off the list. Plenty more to go though, such as Jane Foster being an awful choice over Sif et al.

    You still seem to have issues understanding that it's not a "cuz she's a girl" thing. I could not give any less of a shit about who is what. I care about story and have made this clear many times.
    Except I still don't know how to separate you from those who are genuinely hateful. Not acting in a conspiratorial manner might help. Furthermore, I thought that having Jane take up the hammer is an excellent idea and something no one saw coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tradewind View Post
    The entire reason behind the AN/AD series is entirely built upon capitalizing on today's market.
    There are multiple Avengers titles. ANAD, New, Uncanny, Ultimates, AForce. The title you read is based off of which characters you like and the creative team's abilities. There's no conspiracy beyond: "Read all the Avengers comics or you're missing out."
    Last edited by Ivanstone; 2016-08-19 at 01:18 AM.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Except that's not my response. You deliberately left off half the sentence. It's about as honest as if you claimed I'd said "Slavery is a strong system for supporting an economy" and thus was a supporter of slavery, leaving off the rest of the sentence where I'd said "though the human rights abuses inherent to its action make it untenable in any ethical society."

    You don't get to just edit down someone's statements until you can make it look like they said something "bad". That's basically just lying.
    Nothing else you said in there really excuses your racist sentiments.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The simplest solution is to let it slide. Currently, Thor is successful and no amount of hand waving will change that. Comics are a bit more diverse than they used to be and we might get some newer readers in because of it.

    White males forever wasn't going to happen regardless and the so-called "gimmicks" will either work or they wont. Just like any other story element. If it doesn't work, you get your wish and the book gets the axe. If it does work, maybe admit you were wrong and move on.

    Like the Ghostbusters movie. There's obviously a lot of hate for it but the movie is still somewhat successful. Critics liked it and ticket sales were pretty good. Although not enough to justify its bloated production costs. Maybe they needed to take a page from Deadpool?
    Not call the people who didn't like the trailer misogynists and have the stars going on interviews further insulting them?

    And not make meh at best movie marketing on rebooting a franchise no one was clamoring for in an Era where people are getting fed up with reboots?

    And not overhype the fact that women are the primary, majority or entirety of the starring roles in your movie, when that has been a thing quite some time?

    And say fuck you to people R rated movies need to be edited down for children? (This needs to happen more.)

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