Nerf Nerf Nerf Nerf Nerf...

[Deleted]

With Sims/Logs pictures are not worth a thousand words.

I don't think you understanding my point.. So again, with out actual links we can't go thru and see whats what. Compare gear, see talents, see if they executed their rotation right, see if they made mistakes, see if there was any problems that caused their dps to be so low, or padding causing it to be so high. Put simply if we can't see and go thru any of the many things that can influence DPS, then all that was linked is smoke.

Sure I respect your opinion, u don't have to agree with me, nor I have to agree with you. I know it won't change anything by saying this, but this ppl are all mythic raiders, with a lot of experience. Some of them had issues with Beta servers you can see that by activity. Some of them played more of beta some less, but they did research on talent builds, artifact perks, and priorities etc. Theorycrafters are still doing numbers, but in my opinion, if they launched Legion today without changing anything, I would trust numbers I see in my logs. And again u don't have to agree with me, nor I have to agree with you, and it's all relative now, we don't even know if there is gonna be another build before Legion (i think it will), and what will change.

[Dracovian]

editing a quote to make your point fit is the same thing as putting words in my mouth. please stop.

So what does this mean then:

you are there to help the other 19 people in the mythic raid, help your guild get world first/etc.
not the other way around, the players mindset in these top guilds are "i do what it takes"

Since apparently I am misquoting you, explain that statement. How did I change it?

[Cynical Person]

nerf nerf nerf? I didnt know we were on the shaman forums?

[Dracovian]

If you were worried about what's best for progression, you wouldn't worry about playing Frost- even if that was your favorite spec.

Why is that? Could it be that Frost is NOT amazing like you keep wanting to make everyone believe? You've spent most of the thread saying how "fine" Frost is. You made my case for me. Thanks.

[druenos]

It's not exactly street is it lol

[Deleted]

lol @ sims. Rogue at the top with 2 specs. You know that is wrong.

outlaw certainly can be with all the buffs but yeah thats like a 1%chance to get it

[Deleted]

Nothing needs buff or nerfs before we reach raids in Legion.

[Mercane]

Why is that? Could it be that Frost is NOT amazing like you keep wanting to make everyone believe? You've spent most of the thread saying how "fine" Frost is. You made my case for me. Thanks.

Every class has under dog specs, there's a huge different between 'this doesn't do the most damage' and 'don't bring that spec to progression'. You keep trying to reinforce the latter, but you're falling short, repeatedly. I also never said frost was amazing I said in the proper situations it does competitive dps- you said Frost was awful, I said no it wasn't.

Also- still waiting for that World First armory, hero.

[Dracovian]

Every class has under dog specs, there's a huge different between 'this doesn't do the most damage' and 'don't bring that spec to progression'. You keep trying to reinforce the latter, but you're falling short, repeatedly. I also never said frost was amazing I said in the proper situations it does competitive dps- you said Frost was awful, I said no it wasn't.

Also- still waiting for that World First armory, hero.

All I've been doing this entire thread is say how much it bothers me that Blizzard doesn't care about parity. If they did Frost would be able to push for progression. Now you are backtracking after all but saying all specs were progression viable. My armory has nothing to do with you and othrs being okay with Blizz's treatment of Frost.

[Hctaz]

Every class has under dog specs, there's a huge different between 'this doesn't do the most damage' and 'don't bring that spec to progression'. You keep trying to reinforce the latter, but you're falling short, repeatedly.

Still waiting for that World First armory, hero.

Underdog is one thing but when frost is in direct competition with unholy which Icy Veins states "has no weaknesses" when literally every single other class and spec has a couple weaknesses... there's a problem.
Unholy has better survivability, better AoE, better cooldowns, more single target damage, good enough cleave damage (frost is better at this aspect) more ranged damage/damage that can be done not in melee range, better artifact traits... the list goes on and on. What's the trade off for all of this? Nothing. There are no weaknesses except that other classes might do something a little better. But this isn't about that. It doesn't matter if the damage of frost and unholy are close or not. Frost would have to do an exceptional amount of bonus damage in some aspect in order for it to be played over unholy which has more utility and more damage at this point as well.

Seriously take a good look at the artifact traits for survival for both specs. In fact I'll just share them here

Frost: Frozen Skin: Increases Armor by 10%.

This only prevents physical damage taken. It does nearly nothing to help our raid survival as most bosses do magic area damage not physical. Maybe if every single boss was General Nazgrim with his AoE physical damage shout... but no

Ice in your Veins: Death strike heals for 300% more.

Pretty bad considering we don't ever want to use death strike right? Well it gets worse.

Death strike heals for 300% more WHEN ICEBOUND FORTITUDE IS ACTIVE. So when you pop your 3 minute CD that only reduces damage taken by 20% for 8 seconds... you can heal more with an ability you will never use. Great.

Unholy: Unholy Endurance: Reduces all damage you take from area-of-effect attacks by 15%.

This is just... what. So it reduces ALL area of effect damage and not just physical area of effect damage like frost's talent would be useful for. Okay... so it's just better. What about their other one?

Deadly Durability: Increases the effectiveness of Anti-Magic Shell and Icebound Fortitude by 10%.

So... no weird conditional healing thing here. Just 10% more effectiveness on both of our survival CDs. Both of these combo very well with each other while Frost's do not. This is only the survival example but the gap between the two specs is enormous. No reason to ever play frost at all as long as unholy is your direct competition.

- - - Updated - - -

Nothing needs buff or nerfs before we reach raids in Legion.

People are already raiding legion at level 110 on the Beta. Yes the tuning is probably not finalized but the specs will not change based on boss tuning. Unholy is just much better than frost.

[HTowN]

Unholy has limited mobility. That's the trade off.

No comment on Frost though.

[Hctaz]

Unholy has limited mobility. That's the trade off.

No comment on Frost though.

You're right. The Icy Veins guide was written before the change to Unholy's mobility so they do probably have movement as a weakness but regardless: Frost doesn't do this any better either. So both specs have the same heavy movement weakness but also frost has less sustained and burst single target, less spread AoE damage, less AoE damage in general, and unholy has pretty good burst AoE and pretty good cleave anyway. Frost is only really better at furious burst AoE damage with Sindy's Fury and like 2-3 sustained cleave because of Frostscythe.

[Mercane]

You're right. The Icy Veins guide was written before the change to Unholy's mobility so they do probably have movement as a weakness but regardless: Frost doesn't do this any better either. So both specs have the same heavy movement weakness but also frost has less sustained and burst single target, less spread AoE damage, less AoE damage in general, and unholy has pretty good burst AoE and pretty good cleave anyway. Frost is only really better at furious burst AoE damage with Sindy's Fury and like 2-3 sustained cleave because of Frostscythe.

So what you're saying is- Frost is pretty much in the same place in Legion as it was in HFC?

[Shaddam IV]

You're right. The Icy Veins guide was written before the change to Unholy's mobility so they do probably have movement as a weakness but regardless: Frost doesn't do this any better either. So both specs have the same heavy movement weakness but also frost has less sustained and burst single target, less spread AoE damage, less AoE damage in general, and unholy has pretty good burst AoE and pretty good cleave anyway. Frost is only really better at furious burst AoE damage with Sindy's Fury and like 2-3 sustained cleave because of Frostscythe.

Friend, seriously. You are in every topic, related or unrelated, going over your own head to "make people understand" how priveleged unholy is over frost. I dread to say this but is it SJW transitioning to WoW?

[Hctaz]

Friend, seriously. You are in every topic, related or unrelated, going over your own head to "make people understand" how priveleged unholy is over frost. I dread to say this but is it SJW transitioning to WoW?

No I'm just sick of seeing frost get shafted every expansion time and time again. Before it was a simple case of buffs and nerfs but now they straight up made unholy super awesome and did nothing to frost at all... It's salt inducing and I'm really sick of seeing people who talk about frost being okay and unholy needing buffs. I've played frost through and through because, while unholy has been better damage wise, I haven't seen the gap ever get this large. Normally frost has always had cleave and AoE damage at least and our abilities to reduce incoming damage have been relatively similar if not on par with each other. Now it's just... I'm struggling to understand how Blizzard could put every single egg into one basket while not giving the other spec a drop of water to spare.

[Deleted]

@Hctaz I know. Been in all the tests since alpha apart from one. And if it's because you're basing it on logs, check if people are cheesing with old set bonuses and trinkets. Because I know for a fact, that A LOT of testers used old set bonuses along with old trinkets, while others actually tested with new gear without set bonuses. I've seen good logs of frost DK's aswell.

[Karthius]

This same thread is in every class forum. Get over yourself, DKS. Everyone gets nerfed and buffed and nerfed and buffed and nerfed.

Get out of our forum section.

[Nemesquish]

No I'm just sick of seeing frost get shafted every expansion time and time again. Before it was a simple case of buffs and nerfs but now they straight up made unholy super awesome and did nothing to frost at all... It's salt inducing and I'm really sick of seeing people who talk about frost being okay and unholy needing buffs. I've played frost through and through because, while unholy has been better damage wise, I haven't seen the gap ever get this large. Normally frost has always had cleave and AoE damage at least and our abilities to reduce incoming damage have been relatively similar if not on par with each other. Now it's just... I'm struggling to understand how Blizzard could put every single egg into one basket while not giving the other spec a drop of water to spare.

If you have played Frost through and through, than you would know its going to be fine at 110.

Noone is saying frost couldn't use a small catch up with Unholy. But a Better Frost DK, will be a sub par Unholy DK at this point.

You guys just want to complain for the sake of complaining... Frost during HFC progression was 10x worse.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

It's pre-patch. It's not quite balanced as it should be.

[Nemesquish]

It's pre-patch. It's not quite balanced as it should be.

If these people were complaining solely about pre-patch, it would be one thing.

But complaining about 110, when most of them haven't raided, and have raided and link a log with 50% up-time activity to justify, is entirely different.