PSA: You want to use Fel Rush even without Momentum.

[jayinjersey]

@Schizoide And this is where we differ in opinion.


I don't believe a 5% dps change between using an ability and not using an ability are that divergent and perfectly acceptable spread...even more so that to get that 5% you have to play it perfectly.

SimC results
150s Patchwerk fight
10k Itterations
Difference is only Fel Rush in the APL

W/ Rush: 142,759.2
No Rush: 135,529.3


But add that talent...and Whoa Mama

[Schizoide]

My sim results don't agree with yours. Can you provide your APL please?

Did you leave vengeful retreat in also?

[jayinjersey]

Base Import:

demonhunter="Demon_Hunter_Havoc_PreRaid"
level=110
race=night_elf
timeofday=night
role=attack
position=back
talents=0000000
talent_override=blind_fury,if=desired_targets+raid_event.adds.count>=4
talent_override=chaos_cleave,if=desired_targets>1|raid_event.adds.exists
artifact=3:0:0:0:0:1001:3:1002:3:1003:3:1005:2:1006:3:1010:1:1012:1:1013:1:1016:1:1330:1
spec=havoc

# This default action priority list is automatically created based on your character.
# It is a attempt to provide you with a action list that is both simple and practicable,
# while resulting in a meaningful and good simulation. It may not result in the absolutely highest possible dps.
# Feel free to edit, adapt and improve it to your own needs.
# SimulationCraft is always looking for updates and improvements to the default action lists.

# Executed before combat begins. Accepts non-harmful actions only.

actions.precombat=flask,type=flask_of_the_seventh_demon
actions.precombat+=/food,type=the_hungry_magister
# Snapshot raid buffed stats before combat begins and pre-potting is done.
actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
actions.precombat+=/potion,name=draenic_agility_potion

# Executed every time the actor is available.

actions=auto_attack
actions+=/pick_up_fragment,if=talent.demonic_appetite.enabled&fury.deficit>=30
actions+=/consume_magic
# Vengeful Retreat backwards through the target to minimize downtime.
actions+=/vengeful_retreat,if=(talent.prepared.enabled|talent.momentum.enabled)&buff.prepared.down&buff.momentum.down
# Fel Rush for Momentum and for fury from Fel Mastery.
actions+=/fel_rush,animation_cancel=1,if=(talent.momentum.enabled|talent.fel_mastery.enabled)&(!talent.momentum.enabled|(charges=2|cooldown.vengeful_retreat.remains>4)&buff.momentum.down)&(!talent.fel_mastery.enabled|fury.deficit>=25)&raid_event.movement.in>charges*10
actions+=/eye_beam,if=talent.demonic.enabled&buff.metamorphosis.down&(!talent.first_blood.enabled|fury>=80|fury.deficit<30)
# If Metamorphosis is ready, pool fury first before using it.
actions+=/demons_bite,sync=metamorphosis,if=fury.deficit>=25
actions+=/call_action_list,name=cooldown
actions+=/fury_of_the_illidari,if=active_enemies>desired_targets|raid_event.adds.in>55
# Use Death Sweep if it is more effective than Annihilation. See the Demon Hunter section of the wiki for how this is calculated.
actions+=/death_sweep,if=death_sweep_worth_using
actions+=/demons_bite,if=buff.metamorphosis.remains>gcd&cooldown.blade_dance.remains<gcd&fury<70&death_sweep_worth_using
# Use Blade Dance if it is more effective than Chaos Strike. See the Demon Hunter section of the wiki for how this is calculated.
actions+=/blade_dance,if=blade_dance_worth_using
# Use Fel Barrage at max charges, saving it for Momentum and adds if possible.
actions+=/fel_barrage,if=charges>=5&(buff.momentum.up|!talent.momentum.enabled)&(active_enemies>desired_targets|raid_event.adds.in>30)
actions+=/throw_glaive,if=talent.bloodlet.enabled&spell_targets>=2+talent.chaos_cleave.enabled&(!talent.master_of_the_glaive.enabled|!talent.momentum.enabled|buff.momentum.up)
actions+=/fel_eruption
actions+=/felblade,if=fury.deficit>=30+buff.prepared.up*8
actions+=/annihilation,if=!talent.momentum.enabled|buff.momentum.up|fury.deficit<=30+buff.prepared.up*8|buff.metamorphosis.remains<2
actions+=/throw_glaive,if=talent.bloodlet.enabled&(!talent.master_of_the_glaive.enabled|!talent.momentum.enabled|buff.momentum.up)
actions+=/eye_beam,if=!talent.demonic.enabled&(spell_targets.eye_beam_tick>desired_targets|(raid_event.adds.in>45&buff.metamorphosis.down&(artifact.anguish_of_the_deceiver.enabled|active_enemies>1)))
# Pool fury for various different upcoming abilities.
actions+=/demons_bite,if=buff.metamorphosis.down&cooldown.blade_dance.remains<gcd&fury<55&blade_dance_worth_using
actions+=/demons_bite,if=talent.demonic.enabled&buff.metamorphosis.down&cooldown.eye_beam.remains<gcd&fury.deficit>=20
actions+=/demons_bite,if=talent.demonic.enabled&buff.metamorphosis.down&cooldown.eye_beam.remains<2*gcd&fury.deficit>=45
actions+=/throw_glaive,if=buff.metamorphosis.down&spell_targets>=3
actions+=/chaos_strike,if=!talent.momentum.enabled|buff.momentum.up|fury.deficit<=30+buff.prepared.up*8
# Use Fel Barrage if its nearing max charges, saving it for Momentum and adds if possible.
actions+=/fel_barrage,if=charges=4&buff.metamorphosis.down&(buff.momentum.up|!talent.momentum.enabled)&(active_enemies>desired_targets|raid_event.adds.in>30)
actions+=/fel_rush,animation_cancel=1,if=!talent.momentum.enabled&raid_event.movement.in>charges*10
actions+=/demons_bite
actions+=/fel_rush,if=movement.distance>15|(buff.out_of_range.up&!talent.momentum.enabled)
actions+=/vengeful_retreat,if=movement.distance>15

actions.cooldown=use_item,slot=trinket2,if=buff.chaos_blades.up|!talent.chaos_blades.enabled
actions.cooldown+=/nemesis,target_if=min:target.time_to_die,if=raid_event.adds.exists&debuff.nemesis.down&(active_enemies>desired_targets|raid_event.adds.in>60)
actions.cooldown+=/nemesis,if=!raid_event.adds.exists&(cooldown.metamorphosis.remains>100|target.time_to_die<70)
actions.cooldown+=/nemesis,sync=metamorphosis,if=!raid_event.adds.exists
actions.cooldown+=/chaos_blades,if=buff.metamorphosis.up|cooldown.metamorphosis.remains>100|target.time_to_die<20
# Use Metamorphosis if Nemesis and Chaos Blades are ready.
actions.cooldown+=/metamorphosis,if=buff.metamorphosis.down&(!talent.demonic.enabled|!cooldown.eye_beam.ready)&(!talent.chaos_blades.enabled|cooldown.chaos_blades.ready)&(!talent.nemesis.enabled|debuff.nemesis.up|cooldown.nemesis.ready)
actions.cooldown+=/potion,name=draenic_agility_potion,if=buff.metamorphosis.remains>25

head=vigilant_bondbreaker_headdress,id=134446,bonus_id=1727/1492
neck=breathless_choker,id=137461,bonus_id=1727/1492,enchant_id=5439
shoulders=crashing_oceantide_mantle,id=137364,bonus_id=1727/1492
back=cloak_of_manaspun_silk,id=134410,bonus_id=1727/1492,enchant_id=5435
chest=vest_of_rupturing_diamonds,id=137336,bonus_id=1727/1492
wrists=adorned_guardians_bracers,id=133621,bonus_id=1727/1492
hands=guileful_intruder_handguards,id=137480,bonus_id=1727/1492
waist=ravens_veil_belt,id=139243,bonus_id=1727/1492
legs=ashen_satyr_leggings,id=134448,bonus_id=1727/1492
feet=tunnel_trudger_footguards,id=137397,bonus_id=1727/1492
finger1=band_of_callous_dominance,id=134528,bonus_id=1727/1492,enchant_id=5427
finger2=utgarde_royal_signet,id=133637,bonus_id=1727/1492,enchant_id=5427
trinket1=chaos_talisman,id=137459,bonus_id=1727/1492
trinket2=faulty_countermeasure,id=137539,bonus_id=1727/1492
main_hand=twinblades_of_the_deceiver,id=127829,bonus_id=719,ilevel=840
off_hand=twinblades_of_the_deceiver,id=127830,ilevel=840

# Gear Summary
# gear_ilvl=840.00
# gear_agility=9632
# gear_stamina=17140
# gear_crit_rating=11452
# gear_haste_rating=4358
# gear_mastery_rating=526
# gear_versatility_rating=1193
# gear_armor=1957
# set_bonus=tier19p_leather_2pc=1

Only then for no Rush I comment out line 62.

Result has no Fel Rushes


The big difference I see is that the No Rush hits 113 Chaos Strikes where the Rush hits 108...

I have to find a place to house these sim results...here we go http://www.feedmillstation.com/temp/results_html.html

[Wolfy2032]

The biggest concern isnt the actual playstyle of the class or even the dislike of using fel rush but the moment we go against a boss / mechanic that doesnt allow us to do it we will be a paper weight for the raid. Having the playstyle is fine having the playstyle as the best possible dps is fine but not giving us an option to avoid situations that will actually gimp our class is bad.

Options are never a bad thing having multiple options is awesome its kind of funny how people shoot down the idea when it wont even effect their fave playstyle.

I dont want blizzard to make raids way easier just to cater to dhs having to fel rush all the time it will make the game less rewarding. Just give me a few talents or rework an ability or 2 that allows us to deal with bosses like the 2 in nighthold that dont allow you to fel rush around. Thats all im asking and i think its fairly reasonable.

[Kainslife]

The biggest concern isnt the actual playstyle of the class or even the dislike of using fel rush but the moment we go against a boss / mechanic that doesnt allow us to do it we will be a paper weight for the raid. Having the playstyle is fine having the playstyle as the best possible dps is fine but not giving us an option to avoid situations that will actually gimp our class is bad.

Options are never a bad thing having multiple options is awesome its kind of funny how people shoot down the idea when it wont even effect their fave playstyle.

I dont want blizzard to make raids way easier just to cater to dhs having to fel rush all the time it will make the game less rewarding. Just give me a few talents or rework an ability or 2 that allows us to deal with bosses like the 2 in nighthold that dont allow you to fel rush around. Thats all im asking and i think its fairly reasonable.

I don't think I've heard of a single boss in Legion so far that doesn't allow it. Even on Krosus you can use it by dashing perpendicular to him.

[Schizoide]

Base Import:

OK. So that is very far from the default profile. What immediately tipped me off is that it doesn't have any talents selected, which is obviously not realistic.

[MonsieuRoberts]

Fel Rush has been a core damage ability since the very first time they showed off the Demon Hunter last year...I don't think they're changing that one...

Skipping fel rush and vengeful retreat rotationally means you lose 20% of your total damage, according to the latest simcraft. It's not a "bit less damage". It's the difference between performing like other DPS specs and well, sucking.

Moral to the story is this-- If you don't want to use fel rush rotationally, you should not main a DH.

DH_Havoc_T19P: 248.6k DPS
DH_Havoc_T19P taking Nemesis, no Fel Rush/Vengeful Retreat: 207.4k DPS (-19.8%)

I guess (and hope) that will not happen, since from all what we have seen, Fel Rush is the core mechanic. So dashing around for damage is intended. Its not a "bit" less dmg, its a very big chunk of dmg u miss with that.

Edit: I still dont get it why people decide to play DH and dont love this?? I mean, it was clearly to see that this is comming, in combat movement, I was waiting for that so long time, finally not just stay behind the target and play my rota. Yeah we can talk about VR and making Felblade baseline etc, there are the choices (momentum and how we execute it) but Fel Rush? Dashing around through enemies is exactly what they wanted with DH, and we got it, again, I was waiting for that, and I love it.

O snap!

I guess I'm Fel Rushing.

[Count Zero]

So, I've never liked melee dps really. I'm always either ranged, tank, or healer.

But I really do like DH dps, and I think it's largely due to VR and Fel Rush. It just feels a lot different than any other spec.

I also think the new era of combat animations has helped. I feel like DH are probably just making best use of them due to being built from the ground up with the new models in mind, but I actually am disliking other melee specs less now.

Only thing is, is that they make me want to play really zoomed in so I can more fully appreciate the animations, but then I get uncomfortable not being able to see more of what's around me since I'm so used to being ranged.

All in all, good problem to have if it means I'm getting a (relatively) fresh experience with my WoW.

[jayinjersey]

OK. So that is very far from the default profile. What immediately tipped me off is that it doesn't have any talents selected, which is obviously not realistic.

See that's where I'll argue it is the ONLY way to compare the APLs.

Once you add any of the talents the APL will enviably change without Rush...
for examples:
now that we aren't Fel Rushing, we are filling any available GCD with Bite giving less "power" to Demon Blades potentially leading to a better APL setup giving Blade Dance and Eye Beam higher priority so DBlades has time to fury dump


There would definitely have to be a playstyle change if Fel Rush was removed and I don't believe the default APL properly works with that if the other talents are chosen.

[FobManX]

So I was doing Mythic Grimrail yesterday with some friends and I found it pretty annoying to have to constantly FR/VR. Combination of AOE everywhere plus really tight knit spaces. I still like the playstyle but it'll definitely take some getting used to to use it optimally in dungeons where you have to be more environmentally aware.

[jayinjersey]

@Schizoide

Just to check the difference using the default APL and the rest of the talents.

The only build that doesn't offer Rush any advantage and using next optimal common talents would be 0330311...

Demonic Appetite over Demon Blades you ask?
If you take Demon Blades and don't Rush, you are effectively sitting on your hands doing nothing between Fury bursts as you can't fill those GCDs with Demon Bite, since you have no Demon Bite anymore.

So now we have:
Rush 204,668.0
No-Rush 196,999.7 (-4%)

http://www.feedmillstation.com/temp/talented_rush.html


Now that I see it, the problem with Rush is that it's synergy is too much for the entire tree.
It works with Fel Mastery, Prepared, Demon Blades, and Momentum

If they want to give a non-Rush prioritized path, something in there needs to buff Demon's Bite.

New thought, Chaos Cleave into Demon's Slash: Critical Hits from Demon's Bite generate X% more Fury

Then it would be FM causes FR to generate Fury and do extra damage, but you more or DS causes you to generate Fury much faster at the same damage but you stand still.

[Schizoide]

It also has synergy with bloodlet and the 2-charge glaive talent, as you can VR out then toss glaives as you run back in (and they are the highest damage talents in their tiers anyway). Really 5 out of 7 talents synergize with repositioning rotationally.

There are tons of ways to fix it. As always, the problem is convincing the devs it's a problem in the first place.

[jayinjersey]

You can Throw Glaive AT melee though...so I can't give it synergy there.

[Schizoide]

You can, but since you'll be vengeful retreating back every 15 seconds, and throw glaive has a 10s recharge, with 2 charges they sync up pretty nicely. And like I said, it's the highest damage option so you'll be taking bloodlet anyway.

[jayinjersey]

Bloodlet currently exploits a few talent row inequalities

So let's deal with just Fel Rush...and Fel Rush and VR add no extra synergy with Bloodlet.



Hell...if Felblade did as much as Bloodlet, any issues with VR would probably be gone since you could VR out Felblade back



But this is about the base damage ability Fel Rush.

[Kainslife]

So I was doing Mythic Grimrail yesterday with some friends and I found it pretty annoying to have to constantly FR/VR. Combination of AOE everywhere plus really tight knit spaces. I still like the playstyle but it'll definitely take some getting used to to use it optimally in dungeons where you have to be more environmentally aware.

Grimrail is one of the better dungeons for Fel Rush/VR - there's walls everywhere so you're not zooming too far away from melee.

[Schizoide]

Fel Rush and VR add no extra synergy with Bloodlet.

I strongly disagree with that statement.

And yes, Felblade would have the same synergy if it was competitive damage.

[jayinjersey]

Where is the added synergy?

I get no benefit from casting Throw Glaive (Bloodlet) after a VR or FR that I wouldn't get from not moving and casting Throw Glaive.

And don't say momentum...

[Schizoide]

It is indeed tied to Momentum, because you can't vengeful retreat out then fel rush immediately back in. This gives you a way to deal damage while running back in.

Some people may turn their backs to the boss then vengeful retreat through their hitbox, and I applaud their tryhard-ness, but in an actual encounter where you have to properly execute raid mechanics while staying alive and out of the fire, I just don't see that as being a real thing.

[Hexxidecimal]

It is indeed tied to Momentum, because you can't vengeful retreat out then fel rush immediately back in. This gives you a way to deal damage while running back in.

Some people may turn their backs to the boss then vengeful retreat through their hitbox, and I applaud their tryhard-ness, but in an actual encounter where you have to properly execute raid mechanics while staying alive and out of the fire, I just don't see that as being a real thing.

Tried it on beta, was super frustrated with it. Was muuuuch happier just glaive tossing my way back in. I believe you are the one who informed me actually