Too few gnomes & goblins: New Class Idea

[FelPlague]

Well they could make the healer spec like Lieutenant Morales in HotS...could be interesting and would be different than the other healers. Instead of magical healing like everyone else it could be technological healing.

mmm its possible but it would still feel abit akward, as why would you need a mech, to heal, but having a dps and tank spec in a mech then switching off to being on your feet would feeel weird

[Deleted]

Tinker? Oh boy, what an interesting new idea it is! What a strange thing noone has ever thought of this before!

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Nope, some of us just will not play short characters under any circumstance. I use my character as a measuring stick, gnomes/dwarves/goblins completely fuck up my spatial judgement in-game.

[draynay]

Tinker? Oh boy, what an interesting new idea it is! What a strange thing noone has ever thought of this before!

Wow a sarcastic post, no one has ever done that before!

[Al Gorefiend]

I'm just saying don't limit it to just Gnomes and Goblins. As an added note, transformations and collision size are minor points against this, as even Warlocks, Druids and Demon Hunters having larger forms don't necessarily mean they have to be so big they can't fit through doorways.

And the thing with Mech suits is that we already have examples where it can work without having to show your character or end up being form-fitting like Iron Man. Do any quest where you have to pilot a Shredder, or mount up in a Sky Golem. That's effectively what a Mech suit would be, and I see it more as a cooldown ability rather than a form in battle.

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There are limited spots for new classes, and it's not the best to defer to niche aspects simply to maintain a sense of lore or artificially popularize a race/faction. This isn't to say that we should be opening all options and removing limits. I'm all for having racial exclusion to stick to Lore; personally I'd love it if Druids were exclusive to Male Night Elves as they were in Warcraft 3. But it's clear that opening up the gender options and allowing Horde faction to play them made the class much more open to being played. And as you even pointed out, the Shaman and Paladins already DID go through this to become more popular. Having been opened up to the other faction and to more races helped populate them beyond their numbers prior, and even now Blood Elf Paladins are amongst the top played. Imagine if Paladins remained an Alliance-only race as they were in Vanilla!



Irrelevant to any point I've made. I'm arguing about Gnomes and Goblins being exclusive. Blizzard can choose to add any niche or unknown Class they choose. When you consider how class development actually works and do the research into how these decisions were made in the first place, then you should know that Blizzard's designers opt towards broader concepts that cater to a wide audience rather than choosing the niche or unknown. They literally had concepts for Necromancer and Runemaster class in Wrath, but the Death Knight ended up being the more familiar concept and they used the untapped potential of both niche classes to add to what is already familiar and well-recognized.

For the Tinker, it's fine to have it heavily themed around Gnomish and Goblin technology, as expected. But limiting it to those races will not parallel the Demon Hunter's limit to Night Elves and Blood Elves, for obvious reasons. The Demon Hunter is a siumilar to the Druid in terms of a race-exclusive class that is popular because it's well known, whereas the Tinker is parallel to the Monk due to being relatively niche and archetypically radical. My point is that if the Monk couldn't even be popularized by being open to most races, the Tinker isn't going to go very far by being racially exclusive.

What if it were Gnome, Dwarves, Orcs and Goblins? Those are 4 races that both make sense to be a tinker, and could benefit from having more players.

And honestly, the points you're making are the same ones I made when DH was still a popular class concept on MMO-C. Surely, I foolishly believed, Blizzard would NEVER allow only elves to play a new hero class. Look how wrong I was... I think if Blizzard has the audacity to force people into elves, they'll do the same for gnomes and goblins.

DH also worked because the Alliance and Horde both have perfect parallels with the elves, and they have perfect parallels with the gnomes and goblins. If Blizzard could make blood elf males cool with DH, they could make gnomes cool...

[FelPlague]

What if it were Gnome, Dwarves, Orcs and Goblins? Those are 4 races that both make sense to be a tinker, and could benefit from having more players.

And honestly, the points you're making are the same ones I made when DH was still a popular class concept on MMO-C. Surely, I foolishly believed, Blizzard would NEVER allow only elves to play a new hero class. Look how wrong I was... I think of Blizzard has the audacity to force people into elves, they'll do the same for gnomes and goblins.

yeah.. trying to compare the intelligence of orcs and dwarves, blood hungry beasts, and drunks... to gnomes and goblins... is just sad
normally i would say "they would never make a class only 2 races" but with DH we now see that they are willing to, and are fine with doing it

[Al Gorefiend]

yeah.. trying to compare the intelligence of orcs and dwarves, blood hungry beasts, and drunks... to gnomes and goblins... is just sad
normally i would say "they would never make a class only 2 races" but with DH we now see that they are willing to, and are fine with doing it

Well, Dwarves aren't technologically advanced, but they're mechanically gifted enough to fuel the Alliance war machine with the steam tanks and boomstick. Maybe my lore is wrong but I'm pretty sure those are dwarf inventions.

As for Orcs, look at WoD. They're not thaaaat dumb, even if the Blackfuse Company gave them the blueprints.

And if those 4 aren't enough, Undead and Draenei could work too, though giving it to Draenei guarantees the tinker is gonna be 80% female draeneis.

[FelPlague]

Well, Dwarves aren't technologically advanced, but they're mechanically gifted enough to fuel the Alliance war machine with the steam tanks and boomstick. Maybe my lore is wrong but I'm pretty sure those are dwarf inventions.

As for Orcs, look at WoD. They're not thaaaat dumb, even if the Blackfuse Company gave them the blueprints.

And if those 4 aren't enough, Undead and Draenei could work too, though giving it to Draenei guarantees the tinker is gonna be 80% female draeneis.

inventing things, and knowing how to repair things, is harder then building, and operating something, also alot of the iron horde machines were litterally made to just explode, or do 1 thing... a cannon... a exploding ball...

[Kithelle]

Well, Dwarves aren't technologically advanced, but they're mechanically gifted enough to fuel the Alliance war machine with the steam tanks and boomstick. Maybe my lore is wrong but I'm pretty sure those are dwarf inventions.

As for Orcs, look at WoD. They're not thaaaat dumb, even if the Blackfuse Company gave them the blueprints.

And if those 4 aren't enough, Undead and Draenei could work too, though giving it to Draenei guarantees the tinker is gonna be 80% female draeneis.

But compare WoD Orcs to Pre-WoD or Pre-WoW Orcs...did they ever have anything that would be considered *technology* before coming to Azeroth and integrating with other races?

Without Garrosh intervening, the Orcs were splintered with no technology...they drank the demons blood for power instead of building it through the technology given to them.

[Thimagryn]

What if it were Gnome, Dwarves, Orcs and Goblins? Those are 4 races that both make sense to be a tinker, and could benefit from having more players.

I would defer to something along the lines of Gnomes, Goblins, Draenei (crystal tech), Dwarves, Forsaken (alchemy tech), and Blood Elves (like their golem tech). Each of these races have a very distinct culture and style to draw from for their technology. Humans and Orcs would be secondary choices, if their tech makes sense.

And honestly, the points you're making are the same ones I made when DH was still a popular class concept on MMO-C. Surely, I foolishly believed, Blizzard would NEVER allow only elves to play a new hero class. Look how wrong I was... I think if Blizzard has the audacity to force people into elves, they'll do the same for gnomes and goblins.

Like I said, Demon Hunters are very different when we talk about them. Their identity is tied to racial exclusion. It's built into their lore and it's what currently defines them. They're Elves and exiles. Tinker lore isn't that. Tinkers are synonymous to Engineers, and despite being ingenious inventors, the title is broad enough to encompass a wide variety of races given the individual is intelligent enough. The Tinker identity has never been limited to Gnomes and Goblins, though they may be the races we most associate it with.

[Al Gorefiend]

I would defer to something along the lines of Gnomes, Goblins, Draenei (crystal tech), Dwarves, Forsaken (alchemy tech), and Blood Elves (like their golem tech). Each of these races have a very distinct culture and style to draw from for their technology. Humans and Orcs would be secondary choices, if their tech makes sense.



Like I said, Demon Hunters are very different when we talk about them. Their identity is tied to racial exclusion. It's built into their lore and it's what currently defines them. They're Elves and exiles. Tinker lore isn't that. Tinkers are synonymous to Engineers, and despite being ingenious inventors, the title is broad enough to encompass a wide variety of races given the individual is intelligent enough. The Tinker identity has never been limited to Gnomes and Goblins, though they may be the races we most associate it with.

But I feel with all those options, you're starting to really lose out on that racial identity when it comes to their technological side of their culture. Put it like this, you have Draenei and Blood Elves who have technology radically different from Gnome and Goblin, but for the sake of gameplay they'd be using the same spells and abilities that every other tinker would. I feel it's counterproductive because Draenei and Blood Elf technology is fascinating enough on its own. It's more of a branch of enchanting than engineering (enchanting crystals and golems like Medivh did in the movie to animate them, and the enchanted brooms). A Blood Elf and a Goblin have two very different definitions of technology is what I'm saying, and grouping them into the same class... Well sucks. What everyone really wants to see is the whimsical Gnomish and Goblin inventions kicking ass as its own class, maintaining engineering's crafting side of the profession but turning the combat side of the profession into the class it always should have been.

[Softbottom]

I think your thinking is wrong. People will roll a class regardless of race as the class is 99% of the gameplay. How many people playing DH right now probably hate elves?

Secondly, you should give new things to the unpopular to boost popularity, not make the popular even more popular. In the end, people who obsess with their toons being beautiful and refuse to roll anything other than female blood elf will probably bitch about having to be a Goblin, but they'll roll one anyways.

Thirdly, do it for the lore. Dont screw up the lore of a tinker by deciding everyone gets to be one.

Fourthly, Pandaren are even less played than gnomes and goblins, but they're still the most popular race for monk and monk isn't too far below warlock and shaman as least-played class.

I actually refuse to play a DH because they can only be NE/BE's; I hate both of those races. It would have been nice if they could be other races but for lore purposes it wasn't possible.

[Al Gorefiend]

I actually refuse to play a DH because they can only be NE/BE's; I hate both of those races. It would have been nice if they could be other races but for lore purposes it wasn't possible.

My only Alliance character is my male night elf Demon Hunter. Of the 4 race gender combos it's the only one tolerable

[Gamevizier]

How about this:

Available races :
Gnome - Dwarf - Draenei - Human for Alliance
Goblin - Forsaken - Blood Elf - Orc for Horde

Have it be a mix of Warcraft 3s Alchemist and Tinkerer, plus some of the stuff from other blizzard games.

3 specs: Steam Warriors, Chemists, Clockwork

Steam Warrior is the tank spec, they use giant power armors to tank. The suits can be as big as a Tauren. Lorewise Gnomes, Goblins and Dwarves operate them, Forsaken can have a morbid mechanosuit made of flesh, bones and metal and powered by a strange green ooze, Draenei are the most advanced race, their suits can be powered by crystals, same with Blood Elves, Orcs and Humans can have primitive looking suits.

Chemistry uses grenades to AoE heal, they use ranged weapons to shoot heal bullets (think of them as paintball pellets full of healing substance) they can auto attack allies to heal them. They also have syringes/darts to inject weird concuctions/drugs to allies and enemies alike. Lorewise the forsaken apothecary is the closest thing that comes to this concept.

Gearworks sets up turrets and drones, as well as automated bombs and mines, to deal damage from afar.

[Deleted]

Look, a new Tinker thread! With last week's Lordaeron thread, the circle is now complete.

[Thimagryn]

But I feel with all those options, you're starting to really lose out on that racial identity when it comes to their technological side of their culture. Put it like this, you have Draenei and Blood Elves who have technology radically different from Gnome and Goblin, but for the sake of gameplay they'd be using the same spells and abilities that every other tinker would. I feel it's counterproductive because Draenei and Blood Elf technology is fascinating enough on its own. It's more of a branch of enchanting than engineering (enchanting crystals and golems like Medivh did in the movie to animate them, and the enchanted brooms). A Blood Elf and a Goblin have two very different definitions of technology is what I'm saying, and grouping them into the same class... Well sucks. What everyone really wants to see is the whimsical Gnomish and Goblin inventions kicking ass as its own class, maintaining engineering's crafting side of the profession but turning the combat side of the profession into the class it always should have been.

I see where you're coming from, but I think it's compromisable. This sort of conflict already exists with Druids, Paladins and Shamans. Each have a very distinct cultural root, yet over time have expanded to multiple races. It's really a matter of opinion whether or not racial identity is lost.

Do you feel Draenei Paladins impact the Human's Holy Light religion? Or the Blood Elf's redemptive style? Or the Tauren's own Druidic-derived Sun-based style?

In the end, Blizzard made it work. As they made non-Pandaren Monks work. And they will make it work again once Demon Hunters get opened up to new races in the future.

Just as a parallel to this, we also have other potential classes with direct ties to specific races. We could have playable Shadow Hunters or Dark Rangers. If Blizzard made these classes limited to 1-2 races however, they would be severely limiting their own popularity rather than helping that of Trolls and Undead.

[Al Gorefiend]

I see where you're coming from, but I think it's compromisable. This sort of conflict already exists with Druids, Paladins and Shamans. Each have a very distinct cultural root, yet over time have expanded to multiple races. It's really a matter of opinion whether or not racial identity is lost.

Do you feel Draenei Paladins impact the Human's Holy Light religion? Or the Blood Elf's redemptive style? Or the Tauren's own Druidic-derived Sun-based style?

In the end, Blizzard made it work. As they made non-Pandaren Monks work. And they will make it work again once Demon Hunters get opened up to new races in the future.

Just as a parallel to this, we also have other potential classes with direct ties to specific races. We could have playable Shadow Hunters or Dark Rangers. If Blizzard made these classes limited to 1-2 races however, they would be severely limiting their own popularity rather than helping that of Trolls and Undead.

Demon Hunters are just as nichè, always were. They were exclusive to a single figure in WC3, and I want to say less than 5 throughout WoWs history until Legion lore established that they all conveniently left into a portal before Black Temple "that's why you all never saw them!". Blizzard took a risk with DH never before taken - they added a niche, fan-requested class into the game and had so little to work with it left them with 2 specs, 2 races and taking an iconic spec design from Warlocks to make it work. That sounds nichè as ever. By those specifications I can list at least 20 classes that could "work" if the bare minimum are 2 races, 2 specs and no regard for its flavor already being filled.
And saying "DH is much more iconic to Warcraft lore than Tinker is" well, no, not really. Tinker has roots as far back as the now non-canon RPG book, in WC3 as various units that could be incorporated into its design such as the Sapper, and 2 racial leaders would qualify as a "Tinker".
Like I said above, Blizzard took a leap of faith in creating DH and it proved to be insanely popular, before Legion's announcement more people believed it would never happen than the amount of people who think it would. Who's to say Blizzard won't take that risk again with Tinker? DH already set the precedent and they tested the waters with a popular race to get as many on board as possible. At this point, I'd say all systems are go for Goblin/Gnome exclusive Tinkers, Dwarf/Tauren exclusive Runemasters, Human/Orc exclusive... Well, you get the idea.

[Deleted]

I never understood the concept of having "too little" of something. If people don't want to play it, then let it be that way. Just because we don't have an equal amount of something doesn't mean we need more of it. Same goes for vise versa and having "too much" of something when people reject the idea of high elves being a playable race. As for the class idea, I've never been a fan of Engineer/Tinker classes in games but at the same time I can't seem to come up with any other class than the Tinker.

One concept I came up with was a Dark Spirtualist. I don't have an official name but it's a Witch Doctor who focuses on dark spirits, basically anti-shamanism. Focusing on forbidden voodoo magic and becoming a semi-bard class with tribal ritualistic dances and music. But that's really far fetched. People have been asking for Necromancer and I believe this would be unique because it focuses on summoning spirits rather than Undead.

This is taken from the wowpedia:

The Dark shaman is a dark version of a shaman, forcing the elements into servitude, twisting them into burned-out ash, corrupted waters, and toxic air.

[Deleted]

I really like this.
only Goblins and gnomes (like DH is for elves)
a tank mech suit spec
a ranged gun spec with turrets and such

maybe a 3rd spec but we dont really need more melee and 2 spec-classes can exist appearantly

[Andromedes]

Nah, terrible idea. Too close to engineering. Just stop it. When they shaved down class unique buffs and shit, the "bring the player" bullshit, they eliminated the chance of a tinker class.

Demon hunter, terrible idea, too close to Warlocks, blizzard will never implement this class and they will never take metamorphosis from warlocks.