No more theorycrafting in PvP

[Gorgodeus]

Well if you dont research blue posts then how do you expect them to relay their information to you? Perhaps a personal phonecall? Or perhaps you want the one of the devs come over to you and have a one on one walkthrough with you personally?

Or they can go to a popular wow forum and ask, and helpful people will try to answer their questions. GASP!!

[bewbew]

The only thing I like about the pvp templates is Blizz's ability to tweak pvp numbers without affecting PvE. Everything else is shit.

Gear is pointless.
Stats are predetermined
Zero creativity with gearing
Oh, and worst of all, due to the ridiculous damage to health ratios in PVP templates, we're all effectively wearing riot gear to a pillow fight.

Exactly.

There was no gear gap. People coming in late could farm the whole gear and be on an equal footing. They could have made farming the gear quicker and the cap increase to happen faster in the season - the point is, by having different sets of gear, people could make a DECISION on what was best for them and their playstyle.

Through this game's PvP history, many viable PvP specs came into being through the Creativity With Gearing of the PvP community. From African Turtle Cleave to stacking a certain stat until your otherwise unviable class became viable through that spark of imagination from the community.

For example, Enh Shamans were absolutly shit until people started stacking Versatility, a few changes happened and they became the Tanky Melee Support they became in WoD.

No more tinkering with which set bonuses you will use or forfeit (when in fact we should have MORE set bonuses, and be able to choose between them), no more maximizing a certain stat because it suits your playstyle more. Just because of some lazy asses who couldn't do some Rated Bgs for point cap.

Terrible decisions all around.

[solarfallz]

Sounds like someone who already misses being able to "bully" people in pvp

"pls no bully can't we all get along "

~ average newbie who thinks gear was actually a problem

[xhisors]

I've been thinking about this, and I don't necessarily think the base stat templates going into PvP are bad.

That being said, I think they could of developed the PvP talent tree to really allow for theory crafting. For example a blend between the old style talent trees of Wotlk and earlier and what we have now. That way we could pick active abilities/talents and pick the playstyle of our character. We shouldn't have to grind away this system to have access to all the points in the trees. The amount of points will be level based not grinding - we already have to grind for artifacts and random other crap, it has not place in pvp imo.

Things that could be in the talent trees:
-Bonus stats
-Abilities
-Passives
-Able to put points in all 3 talent trees that in some way impact your current spec. (think druids affinity talent row, but not as crazy - example could be a small increased healing for shadow priest maybe gain renew)

This was just a rough thought.

[Soisoisoi]

"pls no bully can't we all get along "

~ average newbie who thinks gear was actually a problem

Gear was a problem - for anyone who likes new alts, playing multiple classes, or playing on different servers with different friends. Was it a problem when you were geared? No. But getting that gear was a clusterfuck of getting one shot from every direction until you were geared. That stops new players getting involved in that side of the game, or the game entirely if they are someone who likes to PvP on other games. It's just boring, it's not fun, and it's frustrating.

I'd much rather this new system than some false sense of belief that we could customise our gear. No one fucking customised their gear, 99% just copied the top players to see if they were using 2/4sets; you wore the PvP gear in every slot and you picked the enchants that were best for your spec. That was it. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded; I'd love for someone to tell me what they customised, that other people didn't do, that made ANY sort of difference in Arenas or otherwise.

Personally, I'm much happier now. I can go log one of my alts for some random BGs and not just get one shot by terrible players because they have gear and I don't. PvP should be about skill, not gear - and now it will be in those situations. No more frustration from getting one shot by people who you would destroy on equal footing. Thank fuck.

So, to answer you directly:

"pls no my penis is small i need to 1 shot ppl because i cant win in a fair situation "

~ average newbie who thinks gear wasn't a problem, and somehow this makes it worse.

[shaunika123]

oh no, i can no longer copy paste the most optimal build and instead just use the one already there

[Tyrannica]

Since the PvP templates are now active it appaerently does not matter anymore what stats are on your gear. Not the primairy stats or the secondary stats.
Its all about the average item level now.

This means you might as well equip an agility piece as a caster now if it has an higher item level then your current trinket. Higher item level = beter stat return according to the template and thus you end up more powerfull.

This totally demolishes another aspect of the game imo. I used to love going for a haste build or a mastery build as an Affliction warlock, or getting to 30% crit as a Fury warrior after that going for mastery. All that is gone. You get a preplanned set of stats according to the template no matter what gear you got on and what stats are on it. It only can be improved by improving ilvl. Sort of like the minimum ilvl needed for dungeons back in Cataclysm.

I guess it was needed for the sake of "balance" but come on I'm sure this can be achieved in other ways.

Anybody else feel like this is a major step backward?

never liked this change. Pvp templates only for abilities that otherwise would be out of control would have been ok with me. But stat templates do suck and remove an important aspect of a rpg that part of the game is how good you are in gearing your character and preperation.

Also i think its ridiculous to reduce the main stait to 70% for example what happened with sub's agility stat, while increasing intellect to 155% for casters(with the exception of afflictoin locks - lol). That can't be good design.

[Soisoisoi]

never liked this change. Pvp templates only for abilities that otherwise would be out of control would have been ok with me. But stat templates do suck and remove an important aspect of a rpg that part of the game is how good you are in gearing your character and preperation.

Also i think its ridiculous to reduce the main stait to 70% for example what happened with sub's agility stat, while increasing intellect to 155% for casters(with the exception of afflictoin locks - lol). That can't be good design.

It's simple balancing of numbers, what's bad about that? It literally shows how far apart they are in terms of damage at the set gear level we have in pvp. I'm sure it'll keep changing, too.

[solarfallz]

Gear was a problem - for anyone who likes new alts, playing multiple classes, or playing on different servers with different friends. Was it a problem when you were geared? No. But getting that gear was a clusterfuck of getting one shot from every direction until you were geared. That stops new players getting involved in that side of the game, or the game entirely if they are someone who likes to PvP on other games. It's just boring, it's not fun, and it's frustrating.

I'd much rather this new system than some false sense of belief that we could customise our gear. No one fucking customised their gear, 99% just copied the top players to see if they were using 2/4sets; you wore the PvP gear in every slot and you picked the enchants that were best for your spec. That was it. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded; I'd love for someone to tell me what they customised, that other people didn't do, that made ANY sort of difference in Arenas or otherwise.

Personally, I'm much happier now. I can go log one of my alts for some random BGs and not just get one shot by terrible players because they have gear and I don't. PvP should be about skill, not gear - and now it will be in those situations. No more frustration from getting one shot by people who you would destroy on equal footing. Thank fuck.

So, to answer you directly:

"pls no my penis is small i need to 1 shot ppl because i cant win in a fair situation "

~ average newbie who thinks gear wasn't a problem, and somehow this makes it worse.

get better gear, newbie, it hasn't been hard to get gear in 10+ years now

edit: still never seen a single good argument as to why you shouldn't be allowed to use gear in pvp, everyone just spams "only skill should matter" why? who made you king of what "should" matter in pvp, especially when the game was ORIGINALLY DESIGNED to have gear?

[Charge me Doctor]

get better gear, newbie, it hasn't been hard to get gear in 10+ years now

edit: still never seen a single good argument as to why you shouldn't be allowed to use gear in pvp, everyone just spams "only skill should matter" why? who made you king of what "should" matter in pvp, especially when the game was ORIGINALLY DESIGNED to have gear?

Because gear deflates importance of skill. These two things simply work against each other. New system gives you, like, 5% stats difference between template of geared player and not geared. which is fine for PvP (read: skill based) activity

[Deleted]

this is terrible.

[solarfallz]

Because gear deflates importance of skill. These two things simply work against each other. New system gives you, like, 5% stats difference between template of geared player and not geared. which is fine for PvP (read: skill based) activity

Why does that even matter? It's a game primarily about getting gear.

Do you also want spec choices and class choices not to matter at all either? For the sake of consistency and "skill-based" gameplay you essentially just want everyone to be exactly the same, yes?

[Charge me Doctor]

Why does that even matter? It's a game primarily about getting gear.

Do you also want spec choices and class choices not to matter at all either? For the sake of consistency and "skill-based" gameplay you essentially just want everyone to be exactly the same, yes?

Because it's PvP (player versus player) activity.

I want them to matter slightly, like they do in legion (mostly). And no, i do not want the game to be changed to symmetrical balance, where do you get this from? For the sake of consistency and "skill-based" gameplay, i want consistent and "skill-based" gameplay. Not steaming pile of a mess that it used to be, like "your MS deals 10% of enemy health at beginning, and will linearly scale to do 40% of enemy health to the end of "gearing experience".

If you really want to spin the "game is about getting gear" argument - game is not about "getting gear", it's about killing dragons, where PvP is just a offside thing.

[Daymanmb]

Yes I agree. What bothers me is the lack of information going into Legion.

All of these questions have been answered at some point..

[Tyrannica]

It's simple balancing of numbers, what's bad about that? It literally shows how far apart they are in terms of damage at the set gear level we have in pvp. I'm sure it'll keep changing, too.

it simply feels wrong and overnerfed?

[Daymanmb]

get better gear, newbie, it hasn't been hard to get gear in 10+ years now

edit: still never seen a single good argument as to why you shouldn't be allowed to use gear in pvp, everyone just spams "only skill should matter" why? who made you king of what "should" matter in pvp, especially when the game was ORIGINALLY DESIGNED to have gear?

Its an easy answer that most are over-looking.
For years weve been losing stat customization in lieu of more talent customization.
Notice how when we loss all stat customization, we gain completely new talent customization?
I prefer the gameplay shift to be based on talents anyways, not whether Im stacking enouhg of the one stat thats best for my class and spec.

Also, stop arguing with yourself online.. Might be a new level of crazy we dont know about yet..

- - - Updated - - -

it simply feels wrong and overnerfed?

See, your emotions dont mean much when the numbers make sense.

[Mafic]

We lost a lot more talent customization than we gained

Legion PVP is a trainwreck.

[Daymanmb]

We lost a lot more talent customization than we gained

Thats wholly false...

[Tyrannica]

Personally, I'm much happier now. I can go log one of my alts for some random BGs and not just get one shot by terrible players because they have gear and I don't. PvP should be about skill, not gear - and now it will be in those situations. No more frustration from getting one shot by people who you would destroy on equal footing. Thank fuck.

Whatever. I never had a problem getting 1shot by better geared players, why should that bother me? This is a friggin RPG, part of a RPG game is, gear and preperation before you do anything remotely about dragon slaying or even PvP.(simply prefere to slay humans, poor dragons)

People that look for a different pvp expierence can always play other pvp games. That said, the wod pvp design was good enough with pvp gear scaling up in instanced bgs and arenas and pve gear getting nerfed(ring and scaling down) - that was almost good. Now i would never downscale pve gear it makes no sense, especially when the ilvl of pvp gear is really high in pvp. PvP templats could balance things out even more if it only deals with certain broken abilities, that would otherwise be out of control.

Right now i only see disgusting madness in those templates, it makes many classes less fun to play or not really work at all and some others still dominate, those favored by the new system.

[Daymanmb]

This is a friggin RPG, part of a RPG game is, gear and preperation before you do anything remotely about dragon slaying or even PvP

What has changed in this equation? Its a trade off, more talent customization and less stat customization. The first leads to more compelling gameplay differences than the latter imo. But your gear and prep are still important..