Nighthold is coming out in early 2017

[Cyram]

Do you see nighthold written above? No? Common sense, use it.

Because Nighthold is ready to go live and is not gonna be part of patch 7.1 as it's already part of 7.0.
EN + Stormheim Raid + Nighthold = Tier 19
The tier 19 drops off Nighthold, and just like they didn't tread MSV as a different tier from HoF/ToES in Pandaria or HM/BRF in WoD, they are not treating these 3 raids as separate tiers... because they're not. They're all part of the same tier.
Will they be gating NH behind a scheduled time? Yes, like they've done before.
Does that mean it is a separate tier? No, just like previous examples.
By the time the big raid comes along we would've have enough time to gear up and prepare doing EN, the Stormheim raid AND the Karazhan dungeon, plus all the shit-ton of content we're getting at start + 7.1.
Tier 20 content isn't even being discussed right now.
So do get a grip, man, you're stirring shit for no reason at all with info that was already out there and that isn't new because they've done this shit before.

[TomatoBisque]

The first definition doesn't fit the scenario because there was never any indication that Nighthold was intended to release earlier and that it's being pushed back, which is why "delay" is a bad term here--it conjures all sorts of scenarios in people's heads that don't fit reality. Thus the term "should" in that definition is merely a subjective call on the part of people. After Cataclysm when Blizzard started making intro raids open a few weeks after the expansion hit so people didn't feel pressured to rush through leveling, they also began to stagger the release of these intro raids.

The gap has just gotten bigger because people complained about how long it took between these raids to come out, and how they slowly increased ilvl, meaning there wasn't much reason to go back to them once the new one was out. This happened in both MoP and WoD (in fact, WoD had the same complaints that we see in this thread, about how Blizzard was "delaying launch content")

[Xtrm]

I honestly see no content drought. Maybe NH will launch a week or two sooner, but I think 7.2 will launch late April/early May either way. Thats 8-9 months of the first tier, but the way its spread out is fine imo. Plus kara and the small raid. Should be no drought of content. I think its fair to have the expansion launches last a bit longer anyways as they have hige amounts of content.

I don't think people are worried about a content drought. It's the fact that they said a few days ago that raid tiers should last around five months, yet this first tier is lasting twice as long?

[Arbs]

They said raid tiers should be 4-5 months, not individual raids. And as you said, EN, Stormheim and NH are all one tier. That being said, if EN comes out around a month after Legion's launch, then Blizzard's maximum ideal end of the raid tier would end in February 2017, but if they start Nighthold in early 2017, this obviously fucks up the entire schedule.

Well Tier 19 being a single Raid Tier with 2 raids & a bonus. We have to take it as Tier 19 is all of them. But the 4-5 months is based off how long Nightmare will be the current raid & than Nighthold. Now they may both be Tier 19, Blizzard is running the 4-5 months based on a single raid Tier. So basically Tier 20 should be starting around June/July 2017. An hopefully they keep this up, I wouldn't mind having a big Raid with a small bonus raid or 2 Medium sized raids as a single Raid Tier. The Raid Tier lasts longer, but instead of 1 raid we got 2.

[Therougetitan]

How does that sound right? They said that raid tiers should last around five months. Emerald Nightmare is NOT a tier, Emerald Nightmare AND Nighthold are a tier.

Watcherdev says in the interview that there is no actual set definition of a tier and that it is (mostly) a player construct. Like how AQ was written off as tier 2.5 despite being a huge raid just cause the tier set bonus was 5-pieces instead of 8-pieces.

So since there is no strict definition of tier that point is moot.

[masterhorus8]

But is it really a delay when everyone knows it will not be coming later & not having it's date changed, but it's intended date is 2017. We are talking gaming terms so if you want to call this a delay go ahead. But those who have used their brains never expected it to be at Legion launch. But if you want to believe it did that is alright .

I think the word they're trying to use is "staggered".
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stagger

[Arbs]

I think the word they're trying to use is "staggered".
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stagger

That is a way to say it, better than trying to use delayed.

[kamuimac]

How does that sound right? They said that raid tiers should last around five months. Emerald Nightmare is NOT a tier, Emerald Nightmare AND Nighthold are a tier.

exept if you count in nighthold release in january and duration it would last probably 10-12 months not 5 so you just disproved your own theory congrats, gj

whther you liek it or not its clear devs treat Emerald Nightmare as t19 and nighthold as t20 /shrug

cant wait for early 2018 to see all white knights trying to defend blizzard how they planed from begining that nighthold will be 2nd raid tier so they could artificially put in number 3 on tier after nighthold and say 'hey what do you want we given you 3 raid tiers like we promised"

[Cracked]

Some people mention lack of content post launch, but really, mythic EN comes first week of October, thats 2.5 - 3 months to Nighthold launch. No more than 500 guilds will have even cleared mythic by then and we get a 1 boss raid in between that as well.

In any case, a drought is not that bad once you know when the rain is coming again. Which we do in this case, so I'm not even mad.

[Soluna]

If Highmountain raid is between Nighthold and Nightmare then we will have both Nightmare AND the HIghmountain small raid until NIghthold appears. That's 8 bosses AT LEAST. Plenty to do till NIghthold I say!

[psyquest]

I like it personally. alway find that they rushed raids too much.

[masterhorus8]

exept if you count in nighthold release in january and duration it would last probably 10-12 months not 5 so you just disproved your own theory congrats, gj

whther you liek it or not its clear devs treat Emerald Nightmare as t19 and nighthold as t20 /shrug

cant wait for early 2018 to see all white knights trying to defend blizzard how they planed from begining that nighthold will be 2nd raid tier so they could artificially put in number 3 on tier after nighthold and say 'hey what do you want we given you 3 raid tiers like we promised"

Except, you're wrong. The tier numbering system is based on the tier gear thats included. This has not changed since the conception of raiding. The only thing has changed in "recent" times, is the inclusion of a Pre-Tier. MSV was the first to do it in MoP. It was a Pre-tier that was technically part of the progression path for T14, but did not drop T14 gear. Same thing with Highmaul. It was part of the T17 progression path, but did not drop T17 gear. Once again, a pre-tier.

This whole tier numbering thing is a community construct anyways. But if we're going to continue it, we might as well be consistent about it.

[Count Zero]

Man I hope this means they're doing what they should have done for WoD:

Launch, small break until Highmaul opens. ~3 months later have a patch introducing an Arakkoa raid (about as many bosses as Highmaul had, maybe 1 more) - same ilvl as HM but with tier gear. This patch also has a daily hub.

~3 months later release BRF - this is a new level of tier, making it the middle tier we should have gotten.

~3 months later release Tanaan jungle daily hub and two new mythic dungeons.

~3 months later release HFC. ~3 months later release final new mythic dungeon and array of scenarios. ~2 months later release final daily hub and array of scenarios.

That is honestly not a *ton* of new content if you utilize the themes and assets intelligently (without looking hokey ... but, c'mon, think of the dungeon/raid hubs back in BC, it's stuff like that I'm talking about - with stuff like Argent Tournament, Isle of Thunder, etc, as inspiration for daily hubs).

Without adding a whole lot to WoD, that turns it into a much, much better xpac. Better pacing of honestly just a moderate bit more content would have highlighted WoD's strengths and muted its weaknesses much, much better. Although I feel like I said the exact same thing and plotted out a better-managed timeline for MoP's content (without even adding anything extra), and yet here we are ...

Anyway, of course the proof will have to be in the pudding, but I think the plans we've seen so far for Legion are a very good sign.

[bufferunderrun]

Fact is they can't produce raids faster than we can consume them. THey should stagger the release like this so I am left with only 1-2 months of repeat stuff in between content launches vs 14 months at the end of every expansion.

this isn't accurate they can't produce raids faster than TOP guild can consume, as he say in the q&a top guilds were already farming mythic emperor when brf come out but the rest were stuck progressing last heroic bosses or early mythic one.
4-5 month will keep entertained 99% raider including lfr one considering it usually open when mythic become available only 1% will be farming the shit out of it when nighthold will become finally available.

What i really don't get is why they took this habit of releasing tierless raids as the first one, imho they should put a tier in nightmare+stormhelm and then the second on in nighthold.

[FelPlague]

Where did they say Nighthold will be delayed? They refer to Blackrock Foundry coming out "too soon" and left Highmaul "a waste of time" but they were referring to the fact that BRF's drops were much higher ilevel, but EN & Nighthold have the same ilevels, so it'll likely be the same length of time.

wow you haver been gone along time...

stormheim will have a raid between nighthold and emerald nightmare, and nighthold will be high ilvl then emerald nghtmare...

[nazrakin]

What i really don't get is why they took this habit of releasing tierless raids as the first one, imho they should put a tier in nightmare+stormhelm and then the second on in nighthold.

Yeah, I agree with this. The "intro" raid has never really made sense to me since they started them in MoP, its always felt like it would just be better to either have them as a "tier 0" with a 2-3 piece set or as a split raid tier similar to TBC and Cata. The weird thing about EN vs MSV and HM is that those raids had their own cosmetics. EN shares t19 cosmetics, so it'll be kinda jarring to hop into NH 4 months later where you're collecting gear that looks identical.

[Hexxidecimal]

this isn't accurate they can't produce raids faster than TOP guild can consume, as he say in the q&a top guilds were already farming mythic emperor when brf come out but the rest were stuck progressing last heroic bosses or early mythic one.
4-5 month will keep entertained 99% raider including lfr one considering it usually open when mythic become available only 1% will be farming the shit out of it when nighthold will become finally available.

What i really don't get is why they took this habit of releasing tierless raids as the first one, imho they should put a tier in nightmare+stormhelm and then the second on in nighthold.

No it's entirely accurate. How long do you think those raids were in development? Most of the raids for one expansion have some work done on them long before we enter the first one. This is why there has always been some sort of drought. It's been acceptable for the most part. The exceptions being mist and WoD of course. Cata had a 8 or 9 month drought I believe. Not terrible really.

[Chickat]

I say they should have 1 piece in Nightmare, 1 piece in Stormheim, 3 in NH.

[Vynestra]

It is. Learn some english.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/delay

No. NH was not delayed, NH should not happen earlier than Jan of 2017, it should not unless you want a 14 month end xpac gap. That is not blizzards goal, their goal is to space things out.

If that is their goal, then NH is not delayed, as it always was going to be 2017, blizzard had only just announced it. You made the assumption it was earlier, and therefor assumed it was delayed.

If it was always scheduled for 2017...Then it was not delayed. They aren't waiting until later to release it since it was always going to release at this point from blizzards goal and perspective and our knowledge.

It's like saying Legion was "delayed". They always had the release date out as 8-30-16, to us. Maybe internally it was different, but to us it was never delayed.


If I am making a pizza, and it's finished in 20 minutes, because it happened later than now is it delayed? No. No it's not.

If I am making a pizza and chicken, and my pizza is done in 20 minutes and chicken in 60. Is my chicken delayed because my pizza was done at 20? No.

Same as if NH was always set to come out in 2017, because it happened later than now is it delayed? No. No it's not.


If Legion launches 8-30-16 and NH launches 2017, because NH happened later than launch is it delayed? No. No it's not.


Delayed is implying something happened later than it should have..Not the case.

a situation in which something happens later than it should - Maybe in YOUR standards you feel it is happening later than it should, but not by blizzards goals and schedules.

the amount of time that you must wait for something that is late - Once again, maybe later to YOUR standards, but not by blizzards goals and schedules.

...Learn some english .

[Struggle]

Yeah, I agree with this. The "intro" raid has never really made sense to me since they started them in MoP, its always felt like it would just be better to either have them as a "tier 0" with a 2-3 piece set or as a split raid tier similar to TBC and Cata. The weird thing about EN vs MSV and HM is that those raids had their own cosmetics. EN shares t19 cosmetics, so it'll be kinda jarring to hop into NH 4 months later where you're collecting gear that looks identical.

They're not making 2 tiers of gear because they already have before, and it lead to the number bloat that had to be corrected.

Tier 9 wasn't supposed to happen, and as a result ICC's T10 and RS gear was astronomically better than Tier 7.

2 tiers would be a lot of work for them down the road.