Will SnD ever be a DPS increase for Outlaw?

[Shekora]

Really discouraging to have a completely RNG based spec, would appreciate if SnD did as much damage as a decent roll but not the best roll. What do you guys think?

[Hashcrypt]

RtB is basically what makes Outlaw fun though. The class fantasy is a gambling risk taking swashbuckler....which is what RtB represents.

Yea, it sucks to have one meh buff come up, but there's nothing more awesome than when you hit Yahtzee and get all 6 of them.

If SnD ever becomes a pure dps increase, then RtB will effectively be removed from the game. With SnD, you trade a higher dps floor for a lower dps ceiling.

[shaunika123]

it's a huge misconception that outlaw is RNG focused
it used to be with shark being 40% but now
all 6 rolls are relatively close to each other and the optimal way to play it is basically "roll till you get 2" which has ~40% chance which is a lot

yes sometimes you'll get 6 rolls but that's only a benefit, the negative RNG of the class is mostly nonexistant now

If SnD ever becomes a pure dps increase, then RtB will effectively be removed from the game. With SnD, you trade a higher dps floor for a lower dps ceiling.

actually SnD doesnt even increase your dps floor really unless you play RtB poorly

[Hashcrypt]

it's a huge misconception that outlaw is RNG focused
it used to be with shark being 40% but now
all 6 rolls are relatively close to each other and the optimal way to play it is basically "roll till you get 2" which has ~40% chance which is a lot

yes sometimes you'll get 6 rolls but that's only a benefit, the negative RNG of the class is mostly nonexistant now




actually SnD doesnt even increase your dps floor really unless you play RtB poorly

Then even less reason to choose it. Not only is it thematically inferior, it's also mechanically poor.

[shaunika123]

Then even less reason to choose it. Not only is it thematically inferior, it's also mechanically poor.

yes, it's intentionally like that tho, blizzard made it a teency bit worse on purpose so that if you absolutely hate RtB you can take that but that wont yield you the best dps because it's easier to play with

[Mask]

yes, it's intentionally like that tho, blizzard made it a teency bit worse on purpose so that if you absolutely hate RtB you can take that but that wont yield you the best dps because it's easier to play with

That fact that you give up the ability to take Death From Above should be the "penalty" for going with SnD rather than Roll. Blizzard is giving us a double penalty by both making SnD suck, as well as denying that player the opportunity to take a different talent instead on that tier (like DFA). This is not good game balacing, imo. Very unhappy with how the design team managed these talents.

[shaunika123]

That fact that you give up the ability to take Death From Above should be the "penalty" for going with SnD rather than Roll. Blizzard is giving us a double penalty by both making SnD suck, as well as denying that player the opportunity to take a different talent instead on that tier (like DFA). This is not good game balacing, imo. Very unhappy with how the design team managed these talents.

actually it is

blizzard is giving you the option of comfort vs damage

instead of 3 types of comfort and 3 types of damage (which will always come down to numbers)
here you actually have a conscious decision, and the damage is minimal, if you play RtB badly (IE never ever reroll) slice is very slightly better, so if you dont want to bother with it slice is the optimal choice but if you do then you have a better option, that actually is the best way to design talent trees(or at the very least tiers within them) instead of just leaving it up to a computer to make the decision for you between 3 generic damage abilities. and it is not in any way unique to outlaw, it's the exact same way blizzard wants demon blades to be for example

[Wolfman31]

Yeah I would like to see SnD either buffed or moved to another tier. It has no business being in the top tier in its current state. Playstyle decisions should be made in lower talent rows like how it is with other classes. The final tier should be a choice between three amazing abilities. SnD is not amazing. And like Mask said, it gets doubly penalized for both being in that tier and replacing RtB. At this point, the only reason it's there is as a dummy test to see who knows the spec or not. And here I thought we were done with those kinds of talents.

[Deleted]

That fact that you give up the ability to take Death From Above should be the "penalty" for going with SnD rather than Roll. Blizzard is giving us a double penalty by both making SnD suck, as well as denying that player the opportunity to take a different talent instead on that tier (like DFA). This is not good game balacing, imo. Very unhappy with how the design team managed these talents.

Why you would even play Outlaw without RtB is beyond me though.

The interesting part of RtB is that it alters the speed of the spec drastically depending on the buffs you get. Making an otherwise extremely boring rather fun and engaging.

When you get the cd reduction buff you need to watch for AR and MfD cd's, plus if you also have the crit buff you need to watch for the gun finnisher.

If you get the CP bonus generation you need to alter when you use what ability in order not to waste CP's.


I couldnt play BM hunter for a whole expansion just like i couldnt play: Keep up SnD and spam Run through on max cp's spec.

Its not in the spirit of the rogue class to me.

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Yeah I would like to see SnD either buffed or moved to another tier. It has no business being in the top tier in its current state. Playstyle decisions should be made in lower talent rows like how it is with other classes. The final tier should be a choice between three amazing abilities. SnD is not amazing. And like Mask said, it gets doubly penalized for both being in that tier and replacing RtB. At this point, the only reason it's there is as a dummy test to see who knows the spec or not. And here I thought we were done with those kinds of talents.

This, i can agree with however

[shaunika123]

Yeah I would like to see SnD either buffed or moved to another tier. It has no business being in the top tier in its current state. Playstyle decisions should be made in lower talent rows like how it is with other classes. The final tier should be a choice between three amazing abilities. SnD is not amazing. And like Mask said, it gets doubly penalized for both being in that tier and replacing RtB. At this point, the only reason it's there is as a dummy test to see who knows the spec or not. And here I thought we were done with those kinds of talents.

then again, thematically speaking where else would it be? tier 7 is the "finisher" tier, and quite frankly it has the worst talents in the entire tree (especially for single target) which is an issue rogues have, but with these type of talents, that is where it's best suited compared to the talents

whether what tier 7 should be is a different argument entirely

[Deleted]

I've not even tried RtB (actually never cast it), i just chose SnD when i first logged in on my rogue after pre-patch. I don't care if it's inferior choice in every way, RtB is not interesting in anyway for me. Also, i don't think i'll do even LFR on my rogue (only LFD dungeons), so it does not matter. I was seriously thinking to go assassination instead of outlaw, just because RtB. "Complexity" of specs was never the reason i play certain classes.

[Deleted]

Snd is there for the players who want the spec to be simplifyed , comfort and not realy care for maximice dmg.

[Phookah]

I've not even tried RtB (actually never cast it), i just chose SnD when i first logged in on my rogue after pre-patch. I don't care if it's inferior choice in every way, RtB is not interesting in anyway for me. Also, i don't think i'll do even LFR on my rogue (only LFD dungeons), so it does not matter. I was seriously thinking to go assassination instead of outlaw, just because RtB. "Complexity" of specs was never the reason i play certain classes.

So in other words you don't even know if you'd like it since you've never tried it, so you'd have no idea if it interested you or not. Should at least try it before dismissing it, I thought I was going to hate RtB too, but after playing with it for about an hour, it started to grow on me.

[Deleted]

So in other words you don't even know if you'd like it since you've never tried it, so you'd have no idea if it interested you or not. Should at least try it before dismissing it, I thought I was going to hate RtB too, but after playing with it for about an hour, it started to grow on me.

Its gotten better with later itterations aswell. I mean rolling the self heal as the only buff 2-3 times in a row in a dungeon on the beta kidna sucked.

[Broskee]

I have no numbers, but I'd assume that SnD is a dps increase on AoE fights due to being energy starved with blade flurry up. More flat consistent Aspd with blade flurry > RtB buffs due to lack of energy regen with blade flurry up.

Again, I'm just assuming and I have no numbers

[Deleted]

I'm interested in the psychology behind your statement. How is SnD even in the same sentence as RtB in the context of "interesting"? SnD gives you a lackluster attack speed boost. Yaaay. RtB actually has depth, chance, versatility. You're entitled to your opinion, but jeez, man... that's dense.

I don't know what's the problem here. You can call me drooling retard or something, but i simply don't enjoy ability with RNG which changes my rotation. I usually choose passive damage increase talents instead of active ones btw. Of course i would just use RtB and not actually care which buff it would bring, but no thanks. SnD is simple attack speed buff and i like it that way. Even if it does not help me that much.

[RobertoCarlos]

Wouldnt mind a small buff to SnD and the casting time of DFA reduced so our level 100 talents actually feel more meaningful and powerful.

[Deleted]

I don't know what's the problem here. You can call me drooling retard or something, but i simply don't enjoy ability with RNG which changes my rotation. I usually choose passive damage increase talents instead of active ones btw. Of course i would just use RtB and not actually care which buff it would bring, but no thanks. SnD is simple attack speed buff and i like it that way. Even if it does not help me that much.

Well then I dont see the problem, you want simpel spec, rotation. You dont want to go deep and pay attention and only do lfd, not raid advanced. Snd is cerated for you. Play the little simpler and little weaker spec, just don't demand same result for a more simplified spec.

It's actually fantastic you can play a more advance spec for better result, easier for little more lay back gameplay

[elfporn]

I don't know what's the problem here. You can call me drooling retard or something, but i simply don't enjoy ability with RNG which changes my rotation. I usually choose passive damage increase talents instead of active ones btw. Of course i would just use RtB and not actually care which buff it would bring, but no thanks. SnD is simple attack speed buff and i like it that way. Even if it does not help me that much.

your signature explains the way you play the game, after reading it, i've come to the conclusion that your subjective opinion and playstyle of the spec is appalling, and you are very very weird for not wanting to be the best you can be. And that's my opinion of you.

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I have no numbers, but I'd assume that SnD is a dps increase on AoE fights due to being energy starved with blade flurry up. More flat consistent Aspd with blade flurry > RtB buffs due to lack of energy regen with blade flurry up.

Again, I'm just assuming and I have no numbers

it is never a dps increase, in any situation whatsoever.

If you're energy starved at any point, then you should reroll for a buff(or two) that increases the pace of your ration. Those buffs are jolly roger, broadsides, and buried treasure.

[Korkk]

it is never a dps increase, in any situation whatsoever.

Not actually true. Currently at 110, 35% of the time taking SnD would have been a DPS increase. Obviously you'd never bank on that low chance, but it is possible.