Jaina Proudmoore - Butchering

[Spunt]

1. Lorewise the population in Theramore is a lot bigger than what we see in-game. It wouldn't have been feasible for Jaina to consider that option.
2. She probably thought the other Horde leaders including Thrall would use their leverage as leaders to convince Garrosh, or maybe she thought Garrosh as warmonger as he was, at least had some Orc honor and wouldn't bomb a city from afar instead of a honorable fight.
3. She felt there wasn't anywhere else to evacuate to, with all the Cataclysm going on.

Realistically, yes, I imagine Theramore is much bigger than what is actually in game. However, when you have a faction leader tell you to your face that your city is about to be attacked with a seriously destructive weapon from a unbalanced and dangerous leader with the power to make it happen, it would have been more intelligent to get as many people out of the city as possible. But she does the opposite and brings more people in. She made error after error when she was given this information and, honestly, looks like a terrible leader and tactician for doing things the way she did.

Besides, when you go around claiming you're totally neutral in the Horde//Alliance conflict and then allow one of the factions to use your city as a staging ground for an invasion against the other faction, you would have to be completely mentally retarded to think there will be no consequences or repercussions. Jaina may be a brilliant mage, but she is a terrible leader in every sense of the word and should have no say whatsoever in how things are done.

[corebit]

Im just sad that they're making her out to be a bad guy..

It's kinda obvious too, that she'll just be another plot-point we're going to have to "deal with"

They're not making her a bad guy, unless you're a Horde purist.
They're making her a more of a "PVP guy", more interested in killing Horde.

She hasn't done anything "evil" yet. She wanted to flood Orgrimmar before but she restrained herself.

That's not bad writing. The designers felt rightly the Alliance leaders are all too prone to sing Kumbaya and say "World Peace", and some needed a bit more faction pride injected into their veins.

When Alliance posters point to all the atrocities Sylvanas has committed, Horde posters simply bat it away with : "well that's her character and that's how the Forsaken are". OK, then Blizzard are in the process of making Genn and Jaina more PVP oriented and that's fine as well.

[Pengalor]

"reasonable arguments."

Thank you for that late night laugh fest. Keep on ignoring someone's entire home getting nuked is somehow not worthy of her hating the faction that did it. Keep pathetically pretending that it only fell on Garrosh's shoulders despite all the Horde races being involved.

Keep pretending you're making "reasonable arguments" and then talking about a victim complex.

Bahahahahaha.

"Everything I disagree with is unreasonable!!" You've got no self-awareness at all, do you...

Also, I refer to my above example. Also, I refer you to my above question about 9/11 and Muslims. If you feel that's unreasonable then it's hypocritical to find it entirely reasonable when Jaina does it. Also keep in mind that Jaina was literally about to do the same thing to Orgrimmar but was stopped, so yeah.

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She hasn't done anything "evil" yet. She wanted to flood Orgrimmar before but she restrained herself.

What she did to the Sunreavers in Dalaran is somehow not considered evil? Ok...

Edit: Also, she didn't 'restrain herself'. Kalecgos and Thrall talked her out of it.

[Spunt]

"Everything I disagree with is unreasonable!!" You've got no self-awareness at all, do you...

Also, I refer to my above example. Also, I refer you to my above question about 9/11 and Muslims. If you feel that's unreasonable then it's hypocritical to find it entirely reasonable when Jaina does it. Also keep in mind that Jaina was literally about to do the same thing to Orgrimmar but was stopped, so yeah.

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What she did to the Sunreavers in Dalaran is somehow not considered evil? Ok...

She just doing what her daddy would have done, a little ethnic cleansing here, a little ethnic cleansing there....

[corebit]

What she did to the Sunreavers in Dalaran is somehow not considered evil? Ok...

The Sunreavers weren't slaughtered en-masse. Most were forced to leave Dalaran with a few who resisted and got killed. The "evil" scale isn't even close to what Sylvanas does regularly, so nope.
If Horde purists can excuse Sylvanas for anything she has done, then you have absolutely no room to call Jaina's actions so far "evil"

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She just doing what her daddy would have done, a little ethnic cleansing here, a little ethnic cleansing there....

I think you need to look up what ethnicity means. Purging green-skinned aliens that were hell bent on Azeroth's destruction years ago would classify more as self-defense.

[Pengalor]

The Sunreavers weren't slaughtered en-masse. Most were forced to leave Dalaran with a few who resisted and got killed. The "evil" scale isn't even close to what Sylvanas does regularly, so nope.
If Horde purists can excuse Sylvanas for anything she has done, then you have absolutely no room to call Jaina's actions so far "evil"

Who here is excusing Sylvanas? Maybe we could stick to the discussion at hand rather than strawmen. Also, 'the other side did something worse!' is a pretty shit argument for defending something and is basically a last resort when you can't think of an actual justification. What she did was unquestionably wrong and ended with her walking through the streets essentially executing people for trying to defend their homes.

[Magnagarde]

We simply need to admit to ourselves that Blizzard didn't have much of an idea of just how meaningless, yet OOC-guided their lore was. Everything after WotLK was made to accomodate OOC balance or create plots that weren't as senseful and logic as we were used to see from Blizzard.

Regardless of that, Jaina has all the reasons she needs to act as she does, but I sincerely hope her character won't be killed off. She and Greymane deserve to get a fitting revenge for everything that was done to them, but not yet.

[corebit]

Who here is excusing Sylvanas? Maybe we could stick to the discussion at hand rather than strawmen. Also, 'the other side did something worse!' is a pretty shit argument for defending something and is basically a last resort when you can't think of an actual justification. What she did was unquestionably wrong and ended with her walking through the streets essentially executing people for trying to defend their homes.

And I'm not excusing Jaina either. But to say that the writers are "butchering" Jaina's character is simply wrong. No, Jaina's character now is infinitely more interesting than the naive idealist who spouted "All I ever wanted was to study"

Here's a question: what was Jaina most remembered post WC3 but before Cataclysm? The most common answer would be: "she was Thrall's girlfriend lul"
When you can't remember anything she did other than some dumb internet shipping theory, then something is really wrong with how she was developed. She now has flaws, she has feelings, and people can love her and hate her. That's how characters become better written.

[Thage]

I wouldn't mind Jaina's more aggressive demeanor if she was written consistently about it. It's pretty normal for someone who suffered a massive trauma to be different from the person they were before whatever emotionally and psychologically broke them, and aggressive behavior from a former pacifist is standard shorthand for PTSD in fiction. My issue is that between the novels and the game, sometimes from one patch to the next, Jaina yo-yos between being rabidly against the Horde, mistrusting but understanding that not all of the Horde is to blame for Garrosh's loyalists essentially dragooning them into service, only being against the Horde as a political power and wanting to annex them, or pro-Alliance but not necessarily anti-Horde.

Between War Crimes and Warlords of Draenor, the complete, entire, total whole of Jaina's character progression and epiphany at the end of War Crimes (where she fought an alternate version of herself who went through with drowning Orgrimmar) was thrown out the window in favor of making her more rabid than Varian was at his lowest low-point when Lo'Gosh fought him for control. Then, again, things seem to be improving. Jaina goes an entire scenario without saying something about how the Horde isn't to be trusted. Then Varian dies and Jaina's entire character can be summarized as "That crazy old beggar woman at the beginning of every horror movie who accosts the protagonists-slash-victims," even going so far as to, twice, end her rants with "You'll see. You'll all see!" before teleporting out.

So, I mean. I'm buying into the idea that the real Jaina is held prisoner somewhere and the one we've been seeing is just Kil'Jaeden being an asshole. 'Cause otherwise, looks like the Jaina from Warcraft 3 really did die at Theramore, and Blizz just reused her character model for some shrieking psychopath for the sole purpose of making Varian look more reasonable (because making Tyrande a strategically-retarded commander who throws her troops to their death wasn't enough, I guess?).

[builderthebob]

"reasonable arguments."

Thank you for that late night laugh fest. Keep on ignoring someone's entire home getting nuked is somehow not worthy of her hating the faction that did it. Keep pathetically pretending that it only fell on Garrosh's shoulders despite all the Horde races being involved.

Keep pretending you're making "reasonable arguments" and then talking about a victim complex.

Bahahahahaha.

I am glad this thread exists, so anybody who isn't a Horde fanboy circlejerking about how they dindu nuffin will see how insane you guys are.

^Example of a fanboy who takes faction roleplaying too seriously.

[corebit]

I wouldn't mind Jaina's more aggressive demeanor if she was written consistently about it.

That's asking too much from Blizzard. Remember that they construct the lore around the gameplay, not the other way. They are not like Elder Scrolls where the lore is very deep and consistent.

So any character can turn 180 at a moments' notice to satisfy whatever gameplay mechanic they want to implement. Right now Genn and Jaina are here to reinforce the idea why PVP is still needed. And before them it was Garrosh.

Garrosh's transition from ruthless but honorable Warchief to full Hitler was also very jarring and disappointing to many traditional Horde fans, but that's Blizzard for you.

[Thage]

That's asking too much from Blizzard. Remember that they construct the lore around the gameplay, not the other way. They are not like Elder Scrolls where the lore is very deep and consistent.

So any character can turn 180 at a moments' notice to satisfy whatever gameplay mechanic they want to implement. Right now Genn and Jaina are here to reinforce the idea why PVP is still needed. And before them it was Garrosh.

You realize that's an even bigger indictment of Blizzard's writing and handling of the story than anything I wrote, or the OP wrote, correct? Only really bad or really new authors bend a character around the story to push the plot; a good story, even one as schlocky as, say, a pulp novel like A Princess of Mars, has the characters and plot build off one another.

And the PvP storyline could have been served without reducing Jaina into a two-dimensional "madwoman in the attic" cliche. Genn alone has all the justification he needs to push the Alliance into taking on the Horde, with known war criminal Sylvanas being made Warchief and the Horde willingly rallying behind her.

[amythist]

I honestly hope they are just building up to her finally turning evil and becoming a raid boss, since it completes her fall from grace character arc the same as Arthas, throwing away everything because he was blinded by vengeance, eventually turning to a dark power (frostmourne) to try and claim his revenge, so for Jaina that would most likely be either joining up with Gul'dan and the legion, or possibly an Old god of some sort

honestly the parallels are just too similar, she is about at the point Arthas was when he culled Stratholme, fighting an enemy no one else seems to see, being abandoned by allies, all we need now is her version of going to Northrend and claiming/falling sway to a dark power to exact her revenge

[SunspotAnims]

I like Jaina, and I've always liked her, but I do agree that her dialogue in the Legion pre-content seemed rather out-of-character for her. I understand where her newfound militant stance against the Horde comes from, it's been developed throughout MoP, but the pure hatred for the Horde she appears to have from her Legion dialogue seems way off, especially in the face of the Legion. She's supposed to be smart and rational, even when dealing with those that she considers her enemies (such as the Horde.) Her Legion stuff seems to have thrown her entire focus on rationality out the window. I don't quite understand how it's difficult to make a character who is both militant and level-headed.

All in all, unless they're trying to pull something, I hope Blizzard realizes who Jaina is supposed to be and dial her hatred back a little, as well as focus her a little more on being pro-Alliance rather than anti-Horde.

[corebit]

You realize that's an even bigger indictment of Blizzard's writing and handling of the story than anything I wrote, or the OP wrote, correct? Only really bad or really new authors bend a character around the story to push the plot; a good story, even one as schlocky as, say, a pulp novel like A Princess of Mars, has the characters and plot build off one another.

And the PvP storyline could have been served without reducing Jaina into a two-dimensional "madwoman in the attic" cliche. Genn alone has all the justification he needs to push the Alliance into taking on the Horde, with known war criminal Sylvanas being made Warchief and the Horde willingly rallying behind her.

I don't disagree that Blizzard's writing is pretty terrible. What I disagree with is Jaina's "butchering" when she was already boring to begin with. Pushing her towards vengeance is a good direction given Blizzard's writing aptitude. It's the best we can get out of it.

As for Genn being "enough" to drive faction conflict, I don't know about that. It could be, but Genn's thirst for vengeance is not as dramatic as Jaina's which could turn out pretty explosive. Besides, the idea that we need to put off old hatreds aside to combat the greater evil is silly, you know why? Because there will always be a greater evil in WoW. Blizzard is already preparing the Void Lords if and when we defeat the Legion, and if there aren't any evils left to fight Blizzard will find a way to shoehorn one in. Meanwhile PVP will continue to exist so there will never be a time when both factions have true peace, so there must be characters to drive that continually.

Also as The Reaver above pointed out, Jaina's attitude wouldn't be considered a 180 since Blizzard has been developing her direction since Cataclysm.

[stigz]

I don't mean to be too snide, because you're completely right, Jainas writing has been awful.

But we're all just going to have to get used to the fact that Blizzards sucks at storytelling.

The whole reason a lot of us are playing this game is because of how good the story has been since Warcraft. They don't suck at storytelling. At least they didn't use to.

Blizzard has evolved into an unholy corporate monstrosity that regards highest profit possible as more important than taking the time, effort and talent it takes to create meaningful engaging content. The core past passion of their development is gone.

That's a fact a lot of people don't want to get used to and is why people have lost heart (quit) in the Blizzard they grew up with. And there's no MMO that comes close to WoW's overall grandeur, so it's very frustrating.

[DeltrusDisc]

The whole reason a lot of us are playing this game is because of how good the story has been since Warcraft. They don't suck at storytelling. At least they didn't use to.

Blizzard has evolved into an unholy corporate monstrosity that regards highest profit possible as more important than taking the time, effort and talent it takes to create meaningful engaging content. The core past passion of their development is gone.

That's a fact a lot of people don't want to get used to and is why people have lost heart (quit) in the Blizzard they grew up with. And there's no MMO that comes close to WoW's overall grandeur, so it's very frustrating.

I would say Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn comes pretty damned close...

[Thage]

I would say Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn comes pretty damned close...

ARR/Heavensward does a great job of incorporating a storyline into an MMORPG while still keeping the other players around you feeling relevant rather than relegated to barely more than NPCs.

[OGXanos]

Jaina is and is not a dreadlord.

She's been replaced by one and is being held somewhere as a mana battery or some such thing. Would be best trolling ever by blizz.

[DeltrusDisc]

ARR/Heavensward does a great job of incorporating a storyline into an MMORPG while still keeping the other players around you feeling relevant rather than relegated to barely more than NPCs.

I swear I'm waiting for you to say "But..."

(I do see your sig, btw)