Jaina Proudmoore - Butchering

[Irian]

Her character is blatantly inconsistent. Note that I'm not saying her reaction to events is wrong - because I don't believe that - but her character took such a hard turn from a logic-founded bookworm to an emotional rollercoaster that can't let go of her past and accept the Horde and Alliance for what they are, when even a character like Varian and Tyrande can, two characters who in the past were known for despising the Horde.

The whole Dalaran thing just kinda nailed the coffin in my eyes because of the symbolism in her abandonment of the Kirin Tor, whether intentional by Blizzard or not.
The last time demons invaded Azeroth, she was the only human who was willing to accept that the past wrongdoings of a people do not make them innately bad, or at least understand that you have to make allies of convenience to defeat an enemy powerful enough to destroy planets without a second thought. Now, she is virtually the only person who doesn't seem to understand this.
Sure you could say it's character development, but watching a likable and rational character go from being purely logical to an emotional rollercoaster wreck with seemingly no direction isn't convincing storytelling.

I mean christ, considering how much she's jumped between her opinion on the Horde, even after this I have no idea if next thing we know she'll be hanging out in Orgrimmar as the new Warchief. Who the hell knows anymore? She goes from hating the Horde to accepting the Horde to wiping the Horde from Dalaran to reluctantly accepting a truce with Lor'themar to threatening him the next time she sees him to then coming to an inner peace within the novel to then trying to forbid the Horde from entering a Kirin Tor outpost in a warzone to then accepting and even helping the Horde player empower their ring with her own magic to now despising the Horde so much that she would abandon all responsibilities if that meant she didn't have to work with them.

I honestly tried to defend this character for a while, because some bit of emotional turmoil and permanent distrust should be evident when a faction's leader is responsible for wiping out your city, but jesus christ, enough already Blizzard. Just send her in one direction and give her one story and be done with it. Stop bouncing between the two every time each faction bickers about something, it's seriously annoying how badly they write her.

[corebit]

*innocent people that are part of the Horde.
If she actually attacked the people that did the bad things than there wouldn't be a problem.

Yes, no problem at all. She luckily managed to be stopped by other people :')
And the Purge of Dalaran?

And Jaina went to the other extreme.

Tell me where Sylvanas was standing next to Stormwind ready to plague the entire city.

What extreme are we talking about? Forcing Sunreavers out of Dalaran is peanuts compared to what Sylvanas did in Gilneas, Southshore, and Hillsbrad, never mind the sick experiments on Alliance and Horde that has going on for years.

Jaina wanted to flood Orgrimmar but she didn't. Trying to hold her accountable for intent but didn't carry out is about as weaksauce as you can get.

[corebit]

Jaina lost some friends, went insane and attacked innocent people because of it.
Sylvanas was at war with Gilneas because Garrosh forced the Forsaken.

There's a difference between attacking your enemies and attacking your allies.
Because the Sunreavers were her allies.
I am saying she's crazy for wanting to drown a city full with innocent people.

Lol, typical Kangodo interpretation.
Or let's put it this way, Jaina lost almost everyone dear to her in front of her eyes, but still kept her rage in check. She did not flood Orgrimmar even though she could, and she chose to exile the Sunreavers.
If she really went "insane", she would have killed all the Sunreavers without question instead.

Meanwhile, Sylvanas was already planning the plague since WotlK and conducting experiments, so don't give me that "forced by Garrosh" bullshit.
What she did to Southshore and Hillsbrad weren't forced by Garrosh in any way.
And if you even come up with that "valid military target" excuse, well then so is Orgrimmar.

You really have no argument here.

[Grimo]

I have to agree with this. Garrosh starts emo, then wants to kill alliance babies and send us to our deaths, then he wants to be honourable, then he says fuck that and wants only power, then he stops the old horde from getting demon powers.... It's just all over the place.

Jaina goes from wanting peace between the factions to favouring the alliance then goes crazy when her city is destroyed which is understandable, then goes neutral with the kirintor, then expels the bloodelves for helping the horde when she was helping the alliance, then seems to become sane again in war crimes, then becomes a bitch in WoD, then goes full crazy in legion.

Well done, you've just discovered this thing called a 'character arc'

I'm so sick of fanboys equating 'good writing' with characters who are preserved in amber and don't grow or change in any way. It's fucking ignorant and stupid.

Garrosh started 'emo' because he'd lost his father, his tribe, his world, and worst of all, he knew his father was in some way responsible. Thrall showed him the heroism of his father and took him to his world. There, he saw his people living under this 'wise' warchief in the same destitute manner as those on his broken world, and yet the resources they needed to survive were right there. He started to doubt his father died for any cause at all. He became a warmonger when he realised that Thrall was serving the Alliance better than he was the Horde. He stays honorable until he comes into contact with the Sha, who bring out his worst emotions. Naturally, when he has the chance to avoid the sins of his father, and therefore the miserable lot of the orcs, he takes it. It's all very logical.

Jaina was the only one pushing for diplomacy when every other Alliance member was gunning for genocide. She believed in the cause. Then when she sees her city - a city full of her people, refugees, survivors, the last remnants of Lordaeron - destroyed in one fell swoop by an orc that her friend Thrall let slip his leash, she sees that cause was for nil. Then she has to suffer the subterfuge of the Horde members she allowed to live in her city despite the war. So naturally, she casts them out. Her story WILL go somewhere. They aren't pushing this envelope for no reason. They have a plan. GOOD CHARACTERS CHANGE.

By your logic, Sansa Stark should have stayed an arrogant, optimistic love-struck girl throughout ASOIAF.

[corebit]

Well done, you've just discovered this thing called a 'character arc'

I'm so sick of fanboys equating 'good writing' with characters who are preserved in amber and don't grow or change in any way. It's fucking ignorant and stupid.

Garrosh started 'emo' because he'd lost his father, his tribe, his world, and worst of all, he knew his father was in some way responsible. Thrall showed him the heroism of his father and took him to his world. There, he saw his people living under this 'wise' warchief in the same destitute manner as those on his broken world, and yet the resources they needed to survive were right there. He started to doubt his father died for any cause at all. He became a warmonger when he realised that Thrall was serving the Alliance better than he was the Horde. He stays honorable until he comes into contact with the Sha, who bring out his worst emotions. Naturally, when he has the chance to avoid the sins of his father, and therefore the miserable lot of the orcs, he takes it. It's all very logical.

Jaina was the only one pushing for diplomacy when every other Alliance member was gunning for genocide. She believed in the cause. Then when she sees her city - a city full of her people, refugees, survivors, the last remnants of Lordaeron - destroyed in one fell swoop by an orc that her friend Thrall let slip his leash, she sees that cause was for nil. Then she has to suffer the subterfuge of the Horde members she allowed to live in her city despite the war. So naturally, she casts them out. Her story WILL go somewhere. They aren't pushing this envelope for no reason. They have a plan. GOOD CHARACTERS CHANGE.

By your logic, Sansa Stark should have stayed an arrogant, optimistic love-struck girl throughout ASOIAF.

But we can't have that with Jaina! She's supposed to be the eternal naive girl and secret Thrall girlfriend who always pushing for peace no matter what! /s

[Raugnaut]

There is no reason why she should become a raid boss. She has done nothing. Only been a victim so far and got tired of sucking up to the horde.

Nothing wrong with that.

Sartharion didn't do anything, he was just minding his own business watching some eggs.

The trolls of Zul'Gurub didn't do too much of anything - The Zandalari just used us in a power play.

Archavon especially didn't do anything, we went and killed that peace-loving, numbers-counting giant for lolz! and mammoths.

[Thage]

It does the exact same thing that people complain about in WoW. The player is "Warrior of Light" who does all these wonderful things - except there are hundreds others who also do the same stuff. And yet here, you get people talking about "how can I be The Commander/wield the Ashbringer, if xxArthasxx is right next to me with the exact same thing?!"

It does have the advantage of a single main story - not to mention class quests - instead of disjointed quest lines. The stuff actually is about you doing things all the time, and not merely when it's time to get legendaries. But no, it doesn't really treat other players any different than WoW does. At best, they're random adventurers/allies. At worst, they don't exist outside of specific boss encounters.

I, personally, never minded my ingame accomplishments actually being given recognition; it rankled something fierce when my guild took down the Firelord and Nefarian, only to be treated like we fell ass-first into Outland like any other idiot and talked down to by orcs who seriously had no chill. So that was never a mark against either WoW or FFXIV for me.

Also, the game does keep in mind that there are more than just you who were chosen by Hydaelyn. In the cutscene where you first see the Crystal that represents her, you can see other adventurers floating around. They're also brought up from time to time by Minfilia and the other Scions in ARR's main storyline and patch storylines, with you being encouraged to seek them out since only those with the Echo can take on Primals without being brainwashed. Plenty of NPC stand-ins also exist largely to act as a means of reminding you that you aren't the only hero out there solving problems on Eorzea, even if the story presents you as the main character (heck, the whole reason Alphinaud makes the Crystal Braves is to give those same adventurers a united organization, though that bites him in the ass).

While the story does less to remind you that other players are out there aside from advising you to grab a few friends for dungeon/trial quests come Heavensward, I don't feel it's necessary after they spent 50 levels in ARR bringing them up.

[Raugnaut]

Well done, you've just discovered this thing called a 'character arc'

I'm so sick of fanboys equating 'good writing' with characters who are preserved in amber and don't grow or change in any way. It's fucking ignorant and stupid.

Garrosh started 'emo' because he'd lost his father, his tribe, his world, and worst of all, he knew his father was in some way responsible. Thrall showed him the heroism of his father and took him to his world. There, he saw his people living under this 'wise' warchief in the same destitute manner as those on his broken world, and yet the resources they needed to survive were right there. He started to doubt his father died for any cause at all. He became a warmonger when he realised that Thrall was serving the Alliance better than he was the Horde. He stays honorable until he comes into contact with the Sha, who bring out his worst emotions. Naturally, when he has the chance to avoid the sins of his father, and therefore the miserable lot of the orcs, he takes it. It's all very logical.

Jaina was the only one pushing for diplomacy when every other Alliance member was gunning for genocide. She believed in the cause. Then when she sees her city - a city full of her people, refugees, survivors, the last remnants of Lordaeron - destroyed in one fell swoop by an orc that her friend Thrall let slip his leash, she sees that cause was for nil. Then she has to suffer the subterfuge of the Horde members she allowed to live in her city despite the war. So naturally, she casts them out. Her story WILL go somewhere. They aren't pushing this envelope for no reason. They have a plan. GOOD CHARACTERS CHANGE.

By your logic, Sansa Stark should have stayed an arrogant, optimistic love-struck girl throughout ASOIAF.

In all honesty, besides a SINGLE character complaining bout shit in the Garrosh short story (Who was, btw, fishing at the time, so obviously she had access to food), there is nothing, WHATSOEVER, about the Orcs/Horde being destitute, and from a logistical standpoint, the orcs should NOT have been destitute, or even have to worry bout food besides knowing where to get it. Piss poor writing on behalf of blizz in a sad, pathetic attempt to justify/develop Garrosh, which completely and totally failed.

Blizzard's storywriting team sucks, period, all over the damn place. There's a reason blizz has had to retcon lore idk how many times.

[corebit]

I already won the argument.

Sylvanas is at war with the Alliance.
Jaina is not at war with the Sunreavers, she was friends with them.
Last time I checked you have to be rather insane to lock up and kill your friends.
Your only argument is that she could have been even crazier?

She wasn't friends with the Sunreavers, she merely tolerated them. And she rightfully locked up Aethas when the Divine Bell was stolen.
Funny how you don't even mention him among those friends huh?
Especially with the mana bomb used in Theramore being a blood elf creation, why would she even count them as friends after that?

Using your faulty logic, Jaina should be at war with them, since blood elves made the mana bomb and Sunreavers aided in the stealing of the Divine Bell.

[oblakoff]

Jaina for queen! Make The Alliance Great Again! Kill Horde traitors and cowards

[Andromedes]

This is neverending story, Alliance fanboys vs Horde fanboys.. Everyone has arguments and everyone has arguments agains that arguments.

[Deleted]

Sartharion didn't do anything, he was just minding his own business watching some eggs.

The trolls of Zul'Gurub didn't do too much of anything - The Zandalari just used us in a power play.

Archavon especially didn't do anything, we went and killed that peace-loving, numbers-counting giant for lolz! and mammoths.

Sarthation was watching the hatching of an army of drakes for Deathwing to kill us.

The trolls wanted to conquer/kill us.

Archavon was a pvp boss. The pvp hardly makes sense as it is. But he was guarding spoils and we wanted them. Yeah, we were douches on that one.

Unless Jaina is carrying some insanely good loot on those robes, i don't think its the same.

[Raugnaut]

Sarthation was watching the hatching of an army of drakes for Deathwing to kill us.

The trolls wanted to conquer/kill us.

Archavon was a pvp boss. The pvp hardly makes sense as it is. But he was guarding spoils and we wanted them. Yeah, we were douches on that one.

Unless Jaina is carrying some insanely good loot on those robes, i don't think its the same.

To be honest, the Gurubashi weren't wanting to conquer anything. Kill, sure, but if you pay attention to the lore, the entire thing behind Zul'Gurub was the Zandalari making a power play and bring down the Gurubashi, the second biggest troll empire. (It was mainly a troll thing, and didn't have much to do with the outside world. The Zandalari decided to hire mercenaries to do their dirty work instead)

[Evilfish]

This is neverending story, Alliance fanboys vs Horde fanboys.. Everyone has arguments and everyone has arguments agains that arguments.

Only I'm a Horde fanboys and I'm arguing against destroying Jaina Proudmoore. What a strange world we live in, huh?

First of all, anyone who says she did nothing wrong, you are dead wrong. She did plenty wrong and others payed for it with their lives, but not her. Appearently doing wrong is a matter of perspective based on which faction you are. She attacked the Horde, she did nothing wrong. She attacked the Sunreavers she was wrong. I don't care who thinks they are right. I care about how it makes her as a character look. And she's looking dumber than ever.

For example. Was she wrong in removing the Sunreavers? No! It made sense. But was her method poor? Yes. She sent a rabid dog to do the job, that little hobag Vareesa who, aside being an anti-blef story device she was in the middle of a nervous breakdown and went all gangsta on the Belfs. So she scared the shit out of the belfs and screwed the Alliance out of a valuable Ally against Hellscream.

I loved the Varian character's relationship to the Horde. He had reason to hate them plenty. But he put all that hate behind and turned it into pragmatism. Now he's gone and in exchange the Alliance gets two idiots. Jaina Proudmoore who goes "BLAAARGH" when she sees the Horde, starts acting like a fucking idiot with no consideration whatsoever for her position as a leader which, as you can see, got her into this position in the first place. And Graymane who is another fucking idiot who acts like a big wolf man but mostly he's just been running away. And he too goes "BLAARGH" at the Horde, specifically at Sylvanas. Right, she killed his son and he's a wolf-man. He's also a military leader he's got quite a few more responsibilities aside his personal vendetta against Sylvanas. At this point they are both the Alliance version of Garrosh Hellscream only without the practicality and cunning. Just a fabricated sense of morality they don't ever show but are supposed to have. And extremely emotional.

I dislike Graymane, as far as I'm concerned they can turn him into a furry dragqueen. But I still like Jaina or rather I liked her and I want her to snap out of her stupid, immature trance and become an actual leader that I may enjoy seeing as an enemy, not another sacrifice on the Altar of Fan-Service.

[Gadzooks]

Only I'm a Horde fanboys and I'm arguing against destroying Jaina Proudmoore. What a strange world we live in, huh?

First of all, anyone who says she did nothing wrong, you are dead wrong. She did plenty wrong and others payed for it with their lives, but not her. Appearently doing wrong is a matter of perspective based on which faction you are. She attacked the Horde, she did nothing wrong. She attacked the Sunreavers she was wrong. I don't care who thinks they are right. I care about how it makes her as a character look. And she's looking dumber than ever.

For example. Was she wrong in removing the Sunreavers? No! It made sense. But was her method poor? Yes. She sent a rabid dog to do the job, that little hobag Vareesa who, aside being an anti-blef story device she was in the middle of a nervous breakdown and went all gangsta on the Belfs. So she scared the shit out of the belfs and screwed the Alliance out of a valuable Ally against Hellscream.

I loved the Varian character's relationship to the Horde. He had reason to hate them plenty. But he put all that hate behind and turned it into pragmatism. Now he's gone and in exchange the Alliance gets two idiots. Jaina Proudmoore who goes "BLAAARGH" when she sees the Horde, starts acting like a fucking idiot with no consideration whatsoever for her position as a leader which, as you can see, got her into this position in the first place. And Graymane who is another fucking idiot who acts like a big wolf man but mostly he's just been running away. And he too goes "BLAARGH" at the Horde, specifically at Sylvanas. Right, she killed his son and he's a wolf-man. He's also a military leader he's got quite a few more responsibilities aside his personal vendetta against Sylvanas. At this point they are both the Alliance version of Garrosh Hellscream only without the practicality and cunning. Just a fabricated sense of morality they don't ever show but are supposed to have. And extremely emotional.

I dislike Graymane, as far as I'm concerned they can turn him into a furry dragqueen. But I still like Jaina or rather I liked her and I want her to snap out of her stupid, immature trance and become an actual leader that I may enjoy seeing as an enemy, not another sacrifice on the Altar of Fan-Service.

The only way she's snapping out of that is if they get rid of Kosak. The shitty writing of WoD is going to continue, until he's forced out and they hire someone with talent.

[Destinas]

Jaina's first true time being shown as an important lore character (in WoW) was in WotLK, where she...showed up a few times? She's done some major things in lore, especially in books, comics, and wc3. But she was completely passive in WoW, until MoP. She cried when Varian did a nice thing. Her ex tried to turn all of Azeroth into undead, and she cried when he still had her locket. Before that, she raided Icecrown Citadel with a number of mages and soliders, as well as freed slaves - all of which died - so she could see him one last time. She was too much of a damsel in distress before that, so of course, Blizzard decided to make her more proactive.

The unfortunate thing is that their idea of an "active woman" is to make her angry and irrational. Of course she would hate Garrosh and some Blood Elves for what happened to Theramore. I wouldn't have hated it if the Dalaran 5.1 quests had just been her banishing the Blood Elves until she could find out the true culprits, but instead she just...killed them all. Gone is the woman that was "proud of her king" when Varian put his personal feelings of orcs aside and just did the right thing - now she replaced that version of Varian. This story arc can't really lead anywhere interesting or constructive, in my opinion.

It's tiring to see her be a jerk to every Horde player and NPC since then. It's tiring to see her be just as angry, irrational, and hasty as many of the other major female characters (Tyrande, Moira, Sylvanas, Magatha, Cordana, Maiev, to name a few). I get it, they want us to see the "irony" that she's turning into everything she hates. Cool, but there's a way better way to do it. I'm fine with having Khadgar replace her for now, since he has an interesting personality, and his flaws actually help the story push forward.

[Deleted]

To be honest, the Gurubashi weren't wanting to conquer anything. Kill, sure, but if you pay attention to the lore, the entire thing behind Zul'Gurub was the Zandalari making a power play and bring down the Gurubashi, the second biggest troll empire. (It was mainly a troll thing, and didn't have much to do with the outside world. The Zandalari decided to hire mercenaries to do their dirty work instead)

The Zandalari are still quite hostile to both the alliance and horde though. They show up again in the throne of thunder with plans to kill everyone with the thunder king. So, at least we can conclude they weren't nice guys. Even if we did the Gurubashi a favor, i don't think we didn't benefit from it. We pushed the hostile Zandalari back. Not to mention their plans to summon Akkar wich certainly weren't well intentioned.

[Rarespawn2012]

Jaina died in theramore, allw e have now is a dreadlord.

[Evilfish]

It's tiring to see her be a jerk to every Horde player and NPC since then. It's tiring to see her be just as angry, irrational, and hasty as many of the other major female characters (Tyrande, Moira, Sylvanas, Magatha, Cordana, Maiev, to name a few). I get it, they want us to see the "irony" that she's turning into everything she hates. Cool, but there's a way better way to do it. I'm fine with having Khadgar replace her for now, since he has an interesting personality, and his flaws actually help the story push forward.

I wouldn't mind if she was a jerk to the Horde. It makes sense she wouldn't be buddy-buddy with them any more. I would like to see her doing something smart for a change, instead of just being bummed out with the Horde.

So far she's been filling up the stupid list non-stop. And while it's fine if she makes some mistakes, there has to be a point where they let her show her fucking experience as a leader who has been through the shit instead of just having her be angry at the Horde and making noises.

I liked the event with Lor'themar where they were about to fight on the isle of Thunder, but they make a truce instead. That was how she should act more often instead of making her some kind of anti-horde crap knockoff of Sylvanas. Blizzard does not seem to get that they won't be able to duplicate Sylvanas in WoW. They tried and ended up with immature, obnoxious and lame female characters.

[Yizu]

Which is akin to doing nothing to stop Garrosh. And what was Jaina supposed to with that warning? Tensions between the factions were already going strong at that time. Should she dismantle all Theramore's protections at once and risk other attacks? Evacuate Theramore? Which they most likely didn't have enough time to do that.

- - - Updated - - -



The difference between this and Wrathgate was all her friends weren't turned to dust before her eyes.

If you can remain "level-headed and ask questions" if your family and friends all suffer the same fate, then I'll call you saint.

Uhm didnt the horde kill his father in front of her and after that she became best friends with Thrall??