Sooo...What spec now?

[Deleted]

Honestly i never get blizzard...

[Orwell7]

I love when people like @Gaidax are just riding on a words meaning - you can argue that the "class design" is both part of the art of the Tier Sets, the spell effects, icons of the talent trees, etc.
Xelnath was part of the Blizzard team, is that correct enough for you? The point is that we, players, know much much better about the classes than someone who was part of the team and getting paid for it.

But I really hope these arguments and facts are not too much for you to comprehend.

Also it will be muuch much more easier to link warcraftlogs.com parses in the middle of a tier. Then we would not need this discussion.
I really want to be proven wrong, however.

[striderZA]

The point is that we, players, know much much better about the classes than someone who was part of the team and getting paid for it.

Spend 10 minutes reading any warlock forum and that should change anyone's view that players know better than Blizzard. Not saying Blizzard are infallible, and players are always wrong, of course not, but 80% of the posts on here and about 95% of the posts on the official forums relating to class design are pure garbage.

[xpose]

Because it was mathematically superior.

That's my point, this game never had diverse builds to begin with.

[Spunt]

That's my point, this game never had diverse builds to begin with.

Yep. It was all an illusion of choice. You either picked the mathematically superior talents or you were garbage.

Same with artifact traits now. Some are clearly mathematically superior and others are pure shit, like WoC and Soul Flame for affliction warlocks. You're better off getting all the traits besides the 2 gold ones until you've filled in the rest.

[Draxtor]

Here you go, is that good enough for you? That's logs from just 1 day...

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

The first log just shows you why the nerf happened - all it takes is one decent warlock and you could top every single fight BY FAR and cleave ones by even further.

But of course whining is much easier yo!

Every single fight by far? You linked one fight where of course a class that can cleave 90% of it's damage onto 2 targets will do well. Where are these other logs of destro crushing other classes like you claim?

Every single one of those logs is abusing Wreak Havoc / Roaring Blaze. Thats why in every single one of those logs, Immolate is at least a fourth of their damage. On one of them its a third of the lock's damage.

---Edit--

In those exact same logs you linked if you even just LOOK at the other fights you'll see Destro is incredibly middle of the pack or near the bottom. And this is before the Roaring Blaze nerf. Come on dude, don't literally give us things to prove you're wrong.

[Gaidax]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

The rest are just to counter the retarded notion that there are no good Destruction logs.

Also - learn2read.

[Zerach8]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

The rest are just to counter the retarded notion that there are no good Destruction logs.

Also - learn2read.

looking at the log, dimensional rift seems so underwhelming

[Gaidax]

looking at the log, dimensional rift seems so underwhelming

It's basically what amounts to instant cast nuke with slightly lower damage than Chaos Bolt that can not be cleaved.

It's around 10% damage output at best case, but it has a nifty trick to it being on charges, if you save them up and then toss 2-3 of them at some point you need - it's a nice compressed damage boost right there. Rotationally you just need to case one, once in a while, to make sure you stay on one charge and like 5-10 seconds to another charge, so you won't lose stacks with Dimensional Rift proc.

Think of it as being up to 3 instant Chaos Bolts -ish at your command when you need, with significant part that you start at 3 charges so later on when we will be again at Bloodlust at pull to nuke 50% off the boss gameplay, you will have a good edge there with this and Lord of Flames.

In short I am personally pretty happy with it, you can game it quite a bit, you can do burst opener, you can hold for burst at important moment (things like Velhari P2) or you can use it to gap movement (Dresaron in DHT). You can also use it while you are silenced or interrupted. It's a nice addition.

[ZakAtack]

How much of this discussion is really on topic? Seems to be 50/50 between log analysis and just whining that locks were nerfed.

From what I can tell, Destro's DPS is competitive and it also has a good toolkit for dealing with mechanics (or at least good compared to the other two). Demo has ramp up time, and I'm sure there will be fights where it suffers from pet pathing and AI. But does Aff not compete well with Destro?

Disclaimer: I don't have beta access so I haven't played hands on with artifacts.

[Draxtor]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

The rest are just to counter the retarded notion that there are no good Destruction logs.

Also - learn2read.

So you continue to link logs that are showing how dependant Locks were on Roaring Blaze, considering how high Immolate is on damage?

[Spunt]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

The rest are just to counter the retarded notion that there are no good Destruction logs.

Also - learn2read.

What does destruction look like now that Immolate isn't doing as much damage since the rather severe Roaring Blaze nerf?

[minath]

warcraftlogs.com/reports/YKNW84RapmMDx1gh#fight=27&type=damage-done

The rest are just to counter the retarded notion that there are no good Destruction logs.

Also - learn2read.

I have looked at a lot of Legion logs and while 325k dps is very good, it's not as outstanding as this log makes it seem. The problem is that this is a fight were you can cleave literally the whole fight, which is where destruction shines. On ST or on fights without a lot of adds the specc does 70% of that dmg or even less and on fights with a lot of adds it still can't do more than it does on 2 target cleave.
Other ranged dps like mage, hunter and even shadow priests are just way more flexible and aren't reliant on a single mechanic (wreak havoc) to do good dps.

[Orwell7]

I have looked at a lot of Legion logs and while 325k dps is very good, it's not as outstanding as this log makes it seem. The problem is that this is a fight were you can cleave literally the whole fight, which is where destruction shines. On ST or on fights without a lot of adds the specc does 70% of that dmg or even less and on fights with a lot of adds it still can't do more than it does on 2 target cleave.
Other ranged dps like mage, hunter and even shadow priests are just way more flexible and aren't reliant on a single mechanic (wreak havoc) to do good dps.

Don't bother, our supreme leader Gaidax cannot be reasoned with, locks needed that nerf!

[uhhwateva]

Don't bother, our supreme leader Gaidax cannot be reasoned with, locks needed that nerf!

He's just completely Stockholm Syndrome'd by Blizzard at this point. They can be nerfed more, gutted more, but they deserve it because Blizzard has supreme omnipotence and wisdom, far more than the player base does.

Bless him.

[Gaidax]

Whatever floats your boat... If you would bother reading my last posts you would see I am not Blizzard disciple you declare I am.

But okay... Really guys, whatever. Here is the e-tissue for you, drink more water, guys, to not get dehydrated from all the crying.

As a side note, I think it's much smarter when we don't fight everything at once. Saying that EVERYTHING is bloody terrible is a bad way to get improvements we actually may need (besides being bullshit and drowning the real problems under sea of non-issues). Be focused and don't go all over the place.

My list:

Destruction - issues with burst AoE.
Demo - long ramp up, issues with target switching
Affliction - long ramp up and Soul Effigy is annoying (but then some people love it).

That's about it - the real issues - not the imaginary ones... and I am no talking about numbers but purely mechanics - numbers can be changed in a moment.

[effs]

You can insult me. But if you're one of the players contributing to the guides, running sims, develeoping mods, writing code, I appreciate you! I come here to learn from experts because left on my own, I wouldn't get far. Without DBM for example, I'd just be a permanent corpse. Experts who are willing to share their knowledge make the game enjoyable for less knowledgable people like me

I think you quoted the wrong person? :P

[Deleted]

So is affliction out for PvE?

[Draxtor]

Whatever floats your boat... If you would bother reading my last posts you would see I am not Blizzard disciple you declare I am.

But okay... Really guys, whatever. Here is the e-tissue for you, drink more water, guys, to not get dehydrated from all the crying.

As a side note, I think it's much smarter when we don't fight everything at once. Saying that EVERYTHING is bloody terrible is a bad way to get improvements we actually may need (besides being bullshit and drowning the real problems under sea of non-issues). Be focused and don't go all over the place.

My list:

Destruction - issues with burst AoE.
Demo - long ramp up, issues with target switching
Affliction - long ramp up and Soul Effigy is annoying (but then some people love it).

That's about it - the real issues - not the imaginary ones... and I am no talking about numbers but purely mechanics - numbers can be changed in a moment.

Imaginary ones? So 2 of the 3 golden traits in Affliction's artifact not working at all is imaginary? Demonic Empowerment is a non-involved boring "press this for buff" spell that you cast once virtually every 3 casts is imaginary? Destro's RNG on top of RNG mastery is imaginary? Blizzard standardizing every warlock back to soul shards while diversifying literally every other spec in the game, even to the point of making survival a MELEE spec to increase diversification, is imaginary?

You are clueless. People are upset that they nerfed the potentially only viable spec that is the LEAST clunky of the three, while not at all addressing the issues those specs have. Instead of bringing up the other 2 specs, they brought the 1 back down.

People like you who belittle these issues into just "people crying" make them appear not as important. Stop thinking this is a number thing, there's a reason when pointing out those logs words like abused were used.

[n0n3]

I think blizzard decided to ignore warlocks for these past 2 expansion since we got so much cool stuff in MoP.
After Xelnath left/got fired warlocks went at the bottom of the blizzards focus when it comes to developing the class or mechanics. My guess is that the same dev team who was in charge of demon hunters had to do warlocks as well, and instead of offering the same chance to both classes, demon hunters came first on their priority list.
I think their biggest failure with warlocks is affliction artifact fiasco, we are a pure dps class yet blizzard managed to fail on all 3 of our specs, not a single one of them is exceptional, therefore, no top guild will bring a warlock for progression.