Blizzard realised that addons have to much influence on raiding

[WoolferRU]

For raiders, it's not difficult. Stack together. Clump, 5-10 yards close. Those with wrought chaos step out. Done.

You know that in mythic everyone in raid is either a source or a target of wrought chaos, right?

[Leyre]

I dont want to go to offtopic, and its a personal opinion, but i think peopel should be forced to either learn their rotation or suck at it. I dont think an addon shoudl exist that tells you exactly what to push and when.

And yes i think its different then going to a site that tells you your rotation, because that doesnt help you mid combat.

Something that helps you learn your rotation = a ok
Something that tells you what buttons to push during combat = not ok

But again i realise this is not how the majority thinks so yeah.

awwww, you mad someone using a mod is better at DPS than you are???

[Mercane]

For raiders, it's not difficult. Stack together. Clump, 5-10 yards close. Those with wrought chaos step out. Done.

Everyone in Mythic gets wrought chaos.

The mechanic itself isn't hard, it's when you're juggling wroughts, chains and adds where things get tricky.

[Jirek]

For raiders, it's not difficult. Stack together. Clump, 5-10 yards close. Those with wrought chaos step out. Done.

We're talking about mythic where every single player is either going to send out a beam or is the target of one. Additionally, you certainly don't have nearly enough time to discern all 10 "pairs" to have them step out. The way it was handled this time around was with addons providing a "radar" that showed where beams were heading, and whether or not you were about to get hit by more than one.

Did we mention that getting hit by more than one was fatal without a significant cooldown or being a tank?

That mechanic on mythic was not capable of being handled without some type of indication where the beams were heading.

Blizzard would have either needed to nerf them so that getting hit by 2 or 3 wasn't fatal, give you WAY more time in-between blasts to figure out your "pairing" and move accordingly, or reduce the number of people getting hit on mythic from everyone to maybe 4-5 pairs or something.

Crazily enough, that wasn't even the worst mechanic in mythic Archimonde. I don't see how any raid group was going to be able to handle 4 marks of the legion without addons shuffling your soaking groups accordingly.

[shaunika123]

Source?

Always good to leave a source

I think stuff like Tellmewhen and its many copies should be destroyed.

Thats just me though

yeah we should all break our necks looking at our 3 buffs/debuffs/cooldowns in 3 different places.

tellme when just helps in a fundamental flaw in blizzard's ui

Crazily enough, that wasn't even the worst mechanic in mythic Archimonde. I don't see how any raid group was going to be able to handle 4 marks of the legion without addons shuffling your soaking groups accordingly.

you can still do this via addons tho, admittedly you might end up with grps that have 1-2 people in them so it needs some more coodination, but that's all, we didnt have the mark of the legion helper when we killed him and we did fine with our WA that just had priorities depending on which group you were in

the only way you could do archimonde wrought of chaos is if you stand in a perfect circle(which is i believe what paragon did?) but you have to do that awfully fast. i dont think many guilds would be able to manage that and it'd just come down to thousands of wipes until you get lucky, which is why im worried, archi was plenty difficult without legendary rings and item upgrades even if you had the addon, how are they gonna make similar fights and balance them around not having those type of addons?

[Gen4Glock21]

Source?

Always good to leave a source

I think stuff like Tellmewhen and its many copies should be destroyed.

Thats just me though

Have you ever used the addon Tellmewhen? It does not tell you how to do your rotation at least not how I use it. All it does is put all your important cool downs, buff timers, time left on debuffs, etc in a nice convenient location not all over the fucking screen like the default UI. Contrary to its name, it does not do your rotation for you, it just tell you when something is off cooldown in a nice location, or tells you how many seconds left on a debuff/dot etc. I rarely even use DBM which in my opinion is far worse than TMW, and I don't even have a problem with that.

[Yizu]

I think an addon like EnemyGrid should be broken too. This kind of addon was never allowed for 12 years and suddenly it is?

[Deleted]

Maybe the default UI should stop sucking at showing the player important info?

Human is not a chameleon that can have 1 eye look left other eye look right and be fine with it.

As an example, take a rogue:
1. Tracking ability CDs = action bar
2. Tracking combo points = your character
3. Tracking your buffs (like roll the bones, symbols of death etc.) = buff tray top right corner with no buff filtering (everything goes there, hots, warrior / paladin auras, trinket procs, weapon enchants, class buffs etc.)
4. Tracking your debuffs = target

It's 4 things to pay attention to, all 4 in different places of your screen on default UI. That's why you can't play with default UI and be fine with it.

"Show resource on targets" option they put so much effort to implement together with reworking nameplates and whatnot does nothing to solve the fact your buffs and cooldowns and debuffs / resources are still split into 3 different places.

If they rework buff tray and allow us to customize it, move it an filter it then maybe we can let go of tellmewhen, weakauras and the likes.

I really wonder how would you play outlaw / sub rogue without a proper buff tracker because the default one is garbage.

Addons like TellMeWhen and WeakAuras are convenient, especially since every class and spec just recently got changed, but you don't really any of these trackers for any of the stuff you mentioned. Once you have raided a hundred or more hours with your spec your muscle memory and buff/debuff/cd duration will be so ingrained in your play that you don't really need those kinds of addons. It's also a lot easier now that you don't have a hundred raid buffs that clutter your screen so you can't see your procs.

Of course it's super helpful for alts or for off specs with those kind of addons, but that's just a "play more and get used to it" issue. I don't think Blizzard should remove those addons, but it would be a fun experiment.

Demonology warlock is probably the only spec you need those kind of addons to play properly, but that's because you can't really keep track of your minions and their buffs from just looking at default UI.

[BiggestNoob]

So this breaks range detection for spreading and position in combat logs so no more replay @ WCL? That seems excessive, given how common "spread out" or "radius of damage" mechanics are in the game.

I'd just say don't make shitty bosses like Kormrok or shitty mechanics like WC. Yet again Watcher proving he's terrible at raiding with the incredible ignorance of his callouts. ERT on Kormrok didn't break the encounter, it simply reduced the learning time by a small amount. The soaks are static, which means you just need to know where to stand, and that takes all of like 2 pulls to figure out. Definitely gamebreaking. WC is just a terrible mechanic in general, and being surprised people made an addon to actually understand what the actual fuck was going on is like building a house out of straw and being surprised that a good gust of wind knocked it over.

Moreover, by removing this functionality, they're actually making cheaters even stronger. It's not hard to make a full radar that works solely by watching network traffic, and this can't be detected by Blizzard, so people who use this would have a huge advantage since you can't make one with addons anymore. And really radars have been standard for like 2 full expansions now and haven't caused problems. I'm curious why suddenly it's a problem. It seems like they're basically admitting that they're planning on adding bad mechanics that would make you want a radar. Guess they really want those radar cheats to be a huge advantage :shrug:.

Crazily enough, that wasn't even the worst mechanic in mythic Archimonde. I don't see how any raid group was going to be able to handle 4 marks of the legion without addons shuffling your soaking groups accordingly.

That's not hard to do:

1. Assign each person a group, that's 5 people per group.
2. Each person who gets targeted is given a marker A, B, C, or D.
3. Groups are now adjusted so they have 5 people per group with minimal distance moves. You can't choose these based on distance anymore, but you can easily do this deterministically and put an icon on the screen that says "stack there".

Now all people have to do is stack on the icon they get and you've completely automated the mechanic -- and in a way Blizzard can't really break (unless you lose the ability to inspect debuffs/targets of mechanics).

That mechanic wasn't that bad. You understood it as soon as the mechanic happened. There was no invisible overlapping or "I don't know how to deal with this" or "hey let's stand in a giant circle or make lines" type of hypothesizing because nobody realizes all you need to know is whether or not you're going to be hit by more than 1 line and which direction to move to avoid it (something most mechanics actually tell you, think waves @ Kormrok).

FYI we haven't shuffled at all for a very long time or relied on the DBM markers. It almost never caused problems, even when carrying people who would just die in P1 leaving 18 or 19 people alive to soak.

[Reloe]

mark of the legion is like the easiest mechanic to deal with without addons.
Because the duration of each mark is differently, everyone who gets it could just look at his debuffs and go to the assigned spot for that specific duration. Having an addon for that is just so no one has to use their own brain.

[Toastiekins]

I think an addon like EnemyGrid should be broken too. This kind of addon was never allowed for 12 years and suddenly it is?

It wasn't not allowed, someone just hadn't written it yet. It pulls information from the floating nameplates that have always been there.

[Raggamasta]

mark of the legion is like the easiest mechanic to deal with without addons.
Because the duration of each mark is differently, everyone who gets it could just look at his debuffs and go to the assigned spot for that specific duration. Having an addon for that is just so no one has to use their own brain.

Bit of an oversimplification, because you also need to balance the soaking groups every time the debuffs go out. It's doable without an addon, but it's way easier to just use Mark of the Legion Helper or a WA for that.

[OrcsRLame]

So this breaks range detection for spreading and position in combat logs so no more replay @ WCL? That seems excessive, given how common "spread out" or "radius of damage" mechanics are in the game.

I'd just say don't make shitty bosses like Kormrok or shitty mechanics like WC. Yet again Watcher proving he's terrible at raiding with the incredible ignorance of his callouts. ERT on Kormrok didn't break the encounter, it simply reduced the learning time by a small amount. The soaks are static, which means you just need to know where to stand, and that takes all of like 2 pulls to figure out. Definitely gamebreaking. WC is just a terrible mechanic in general, and being surprised people made an addon to actually understand what the actual fuck was going on is like building a house out of straw and being surprised that a good gust of wind knocked it over.

Moreover, by removing this functionality, they're actually making cheaters even stronger. It's not hard to make a full radar that works solely by watching network traffic, and this can't be detected by Blizzard, so people who use this would have a huge advantage since you can't make one with addons anymore. And really radars have been standard for like 2 full expansions now and haven't caused problems. I'm curious why suddenly it's a problem. It seems like they're basically admitting that they're planning on adding bad mechanics that would make you want a radar. Guess they really want those radar cheats to be a huge advantage :shrug:.



That's not hard to do:

1. Assign each person a group, that's 5 people per group.
2. Each person who gets targeted is given a marker A, B, C, or D.
3. Groups are now adjusted so they have 5 people per group with minimal distance moves. You can't choose these based on distance anymore, but you can easily do this deterministically and put an icon on the screen that says "stack there".

Now all people have to do is stack on the icon they get and you've completely automated the mechanic -- and in a way Blizzard can't really break (unless you lose the ability to inspect debuffs/targets of mechanics).

That mechanic wasn't that bad. You understood it as soon as the mechanic happened. There was no invisible overlapping or "I don't know how to deal with this" or "hey let's stand in a giant circle or make lines" type of hypothesizing because nobody realizes all you need to know is whether or not you're going to be hit by more than 1 line and which direction to move to avoid it (something most mechanics actually tell you, think waves @ Kormrok).

FYI we haven't shuffled at all for a very long time or relied on the DBM markers. It almost never caused problems, even when carrying people who would just die in P1 leaving 18 or 19 people alive to soak.

The problem with your proposed solution is that Archimonde does not always target one person from each group. He can totally target all 4 marks onto, say group 2, then you're a little bit fucked without some more robust automation, because if everyone just goes to their proper markers you end up with a 6/2/6/6 split, and those two unfortunate people in group 2 get vaporized if a couple people don't react quickly and jump in to help soak. On the flip side if you have like 10 people that react quickly to that, you risk the other soak groups getting compromised. Just because you haven't seen that happen doesn't mean it's not possible.

[Yizu]

It wasn't not allowed, someone just hadn't written it yet. It pulls information from the floating nameplates that have always been there.

NO. Before 7.0 it wasnt allowed on API to spawn a list of enemy info in the middle of combat. For 12 years people have been asking an addon like this and people kept saying that it wasnt allowed on the API. I think it oversimplifies multidotting, which makes multidotting boring af

[Reloe]

Bit of an oversimplification, because you also need to balance the soaking groups every time the debuffs go out. It's doable without an addon, but it's way easier to just use Mark of the Legion Helper or a WA for that.

no actually quite a lot of strats people used didn't re-calculate soaking groups. You could easily survive with 4people soaking and even with 3 you don't die. The chance of only having 2people at one soaking mark spot is pretty low as for that to happen 4people from the same group would have to get a mark.

[Stardrift]

Nothin like not needing to know the fights, not learning new skills and strats, and being told what to do by a robot voice in a raid, am I right boys?

[ComputerNerd]

What blizzard are targeting is something very specific.
So no need to generalise addons as a whole, especially given how they have nothing against addons providing information about timers and auras.

I think an addon like EnemyGrid should be broken too. This kind of addon was never allowed for 12 years and suddenly it is?

It is possible now due to a very significant change blizzard made to nameplates.
And the consequence of that change, adding unitID's to nameplates, is pretty damn obvious to anyone with sufficient knowledge.
There is no way that change would be made without seeing what that would allow.

In-combat restrictions prevented creating frames for arbitrary units during combat.
Now they have unitID's, that changes.
They now work like any other supported frames, Player, Target, Pet, Focus, Party, Raid, Boss, etc.

[Cheze]

tbh it wouldn't be that hard to organize wrought chaos without addons; all you'd need to do is assign people positions around a circle.

what I'm curious about is what kinds of functions will be impacted; is this gonna break more basic stuff like range radars too?

- - - Updated - - -

The problem with your proposed solution is that Archimonde does not always target one person from each group. He can totally target all 4 marks onto, say group 2, then you're a little bit fucked without some more robust automation, because if everyone just goes to their proper markers you end up with a 6/2/6/6 split, and those two unfortunate people in group 2 get vaporized if a couple people don't react quickly and jump in to help soak. On the flip side if you have like 10 people that react quickly to that, you risk the other soak groups getting compromised. Just because you haven't seen that happen doesn't mean it's not possible.

this is true, but it's also a major edge case. Just assigning groups and marked players to ground marks should work the vast majority of the time, especially since many classes can solo their mark if needed.

[Relapses]

That mechanic on mythic was not capable of being handled without some type of indication where the beams were heading.

Paragon did it by having preassigned locations for raiders. Obviously this is a bit more complicated than just using the radar, but the mechanic absolutely could be handled without a radar.

OT: I'm a bit upset they're doing this in 7.1, not 7.0.3.

[BiggestNoob]

The problem with your proposed solution is that Archimonde does not always target one person from each group. He can totally target all 4 marks onto, say group 2, then you're a little bit fucked without some more robust automation, because if everyone just goes to their proper markers you end up with a 6/2/6/6 split, and those two unfortunate people in group 2 get vaporized if a couple people don't react quickly and jump in to help soak. On the flip side if you have like 10 people that react quickly to that, you risk the other soak groups getting compromised. Just because you haven't seen that happen doesn't mean it's not possible.

That's unlikely, but that proposed solution involved rebalancing the groups and instead of people always going to their group, going to the group they're marked with, so it'd deal with that situation.

I'm just saying in hundreds of attempts overall I've seen that happen maybe once where a group just gets screwed because there are 2 people in it (and that's with dead people). And those 2 die but most people live so you keep going and probably still kill the boss, unless it's progression, in which case you implement a better solution like using an addon, which is borderline mandatory for this particular mechanic given the timing.

Think of the other mechanics that could be dealt with using radars that we didn't. Mannoroth's soaking -- you can actually compute whether you have a sufficient stack to soak fairly trivially, and in the last phase you may not want to make giant white circles that cover half the platform, so having an addon tell you "no don't stack on this person" is muy bueno. How about Xhul soaks? Everyone just used cheats for those when in reality a simple addon would've trivialized black hole soaking -- when are enough people in range so we can pop the singularity? How about a stacking position on Gorefiend? How many wipes have been caused by dying too close to the boss and getting broken early due to splash? Easy to fix. I could probably find another 5+ from HFC alone.

I'm just surprised that Ion "Moron Terrible Raider" Hazzikostas is so adamant that "zomg the radar is OP it must be nerfed" when it's not even used in like a quarter of the mechanics it would actually trivialize. That's mostly because those mechanics are communicated well enough and visible/understandable enough that the radar doesn't provide you with much that you can't do without it. It's only got a big impact when the mechanics are very badly designed. Like WC and tethers (no radius visual). Let's just hope they don't keep making bad mechanics.