[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Deleted]

It isn't 20% Haste with 50% uptime, though. It's 20% Cast time reduction for two spells with 50% uptime.

That's kinda how haste works. Anyway it was a very rough guess, if you want to get an exact number you can just run a sim /w and w/o.

[mob1lejunkie]

How will you guys level in Legion? Guardian?

First 13 Artifacts points are negligible so it's quite feasible to put them in a leveling Artifact.

[Kyanion]

How will you guys level in Legion? Guardian?

First 13 Artifacts points are negligible so it's quite feasible to put them in a leveling Artifact.

Why would I be a balance druid and then audible into a weaker spec to level?

[Lucrece]

Why would I be a balance druid and then audible into a weaker spec to level?

Some people are erroneously assuming dungeons are good for leveling (they aren't, only the one quest tied to them).

[Kyanion]

Some people are erroneously assuming dungeons are good for leveling (they aren't, only the one quest tied to them).

haha yeah I don't know why you'd opt for that route anyways considering how lucrative questing is with AP gains.

[Myztikrice]

Why would I be a balance druid and then audible into a weaker spec to level?

Because you can pull more and kill with less downtime as Guardian

[Kyanion]

Because you can pull more and kill with less downtime as Guardian

I respectfully disagree. I can outhit a guardian easy and have no issues tanking as many mobs as they do with simple use of treants/typhoon. I wouldn't recommend anyone trying to speed to 110 going the guardian route if they are going to be maining balance in Legion.

Wasting AP on a guardian spec while also getting punished for killing slower...yeah no.

[Lights90]

haha yeah I don't know why you'd opt for that route anyways considering how lucrative questing is with AP gains.

lol. You must not have played beta. Questing gives hardly any AP, and AP gains at max level are significantly higher. Additionally, you don't have to put the AP into guardian just because you are level as bear.

[Kyanion]

lol. You must not have played beta. Questing gives hardly any AP, and AP gains at max level are significantly higher. Additionally, you don't have to put the AP into guardian just because you are level as bear.

lol. I've been in the beta for months. Finishing questing hubs gave decent AP, picking up treasures in the world gave decent AP. Also the order hall resources from finishing the zones paid off quite well. Of course AP gains at max level are higher...also things like Artifact Knowledge come into play.

Hey I don't care, go guardian if you want. I think it is a complete waste of time spending extra time having to do another artifact weapon chain quest before 110. You level as guardian, kill slower then have to do your balance weapon chain at 102. All yours bud.

[Deleted]

AP from questing while leveling is completely irrelevant, anybody that actually put some time into Beta would know that. The #1 reason to do quests is to get rep (you're gonna need it to unlock world quests). Reason #2 is that is is faster unless the outdoor world is a huge lag fest.

What spec you play doesn't matter for shit cause you'll be spending 90% of the time just running around tagging mobs with moonfire and let other ppl kill them.

[striderZA]

Hey I don't care, go guardian if you want. I think it is a complete waste of time spending extra time having to do another artifact weapon chain quest before 110. You level as guardian, kill slower then have to do your balance weapon chain at 102. All yours bud.

Tank leveling is at least somewhat quicker because of how much more self-sustain you have. Not to mention loads of AoE damage and the ability to go all out with pulling.

[facerollin]

I respectfully disagree. I can outhit a guardian easy and have no issues tanking as many mobs as they do with simple use of treants/typhoon. I wouldn't recommend anyone trying to speed to 110 going the guardian route if they are going to be maining balance in Legion.

Wasting AP on a guardian spec while also getting punished for killing slower...yeah no.

Guardian without artifact shits on Moonkin in dungeons, it's not even remotely close.

You must be an absolute mess at offspecs if you seriously are faster on a moonkin.

[Adramelch]

Guardian without artifact shits on Moonkin in dungeons, it's not even remotely close.

You must be an absolute mess at offspecs if you seriously are faster on a moonkin.

He's clearly talking about questing though (even if I don't entirely agree with his point).

[Kyanion]

He's clearly talking about questing though (even if I don't entirely agree with his point).

Yes I am talking about questing. It isn't even worth arguing over, people that haven't played the beta are acting like they are fonts of knowledge.

[Tyze]

Boomkin is nice to level with, spam dots and if you get attacked you can get Owlkin Frenzy.

[Alame]

Yeah, it's weird though. Because Haste = more astral power

Technically yes, but haste also increases rate of AsP consumption. You don't see the DPS benefit of haste until you look at the fight overall, where you've generated & spent more AsP than lower haste builds would.

huth is right when he says nerfing haste for only class is hard, but it is doable. You simply change the percentage of damage that comes from AsP spenders. If damage/AsP conversions are lower, spending AsP becomes less powerful in relation to generating, so you use crit to unilaterally increase all damage.

Problem is mastery and haste both do the same thing for Balance druids right now, improving AsP spenders (haste through casting more spenders, mastery through making the spenders stronger) but haste does it better than mastery does.

You can make mastery significantly more valuable by eliminating empowerments and rolling that damage back into Starsurge/Starfall. You can make haste less valuable by nerfing AsP spenders by 10% and buffing generators by 10%. Haste is only valuable because so much of our damage comes from dots, spenders, and spender-tied empowerments, and racing through build/dump cycles simply produces more damage than slower, stronger hits.

With the way mastery is designed, you can't buff it without also buffing haste. It's a bit of a catch-22 to fix without major rebalancing.

I personally think that completely flipping our stat priority is a really bad way to design a class rework, but based on what I've seen from the rework I think the state of haste was simply unexpected, not intended.

[Cyous]

Haste is strong because DOTs are very strong.

Run sims, you'll see how more DOTs leads to extreme Haste values. Nerfing DOTs will nerf Haste.

Nerfing Falling Star will buff Mastery. Mastery is still weak, so you'd need to buff it too. The fact of the matter is that Haste influences everything. This is no different from MOP with Haste Breakpoints. Nerfing Shooting Stars will nerf Haste too.

[Lucrece]

Unfortunately I don't think Balance druid can afford more nerfing at attempts to bring other stats up. Its place in the totem pole of classes is already fairly unremarkable. Just hope for a rework of mastery at some point.

Be careful what you wish for, look at the kinds of mastery reworks some classes get, like destro warlock. Your damage swinging so hard on RNG since nukes can do up to 40%+ extra damage, or ele shaman design in pvp being hamstrung by overload.

The only mastery I can say Blizzard hit the mark with in reworks was windwalker monks.

[Alame]

Haste is strong because DOTs are very strong.

Run sims, you'll see how more DOTs leads to extreme Haste values. Nerfing DOTs will nerf Haste.

Nerfing Falling Star will buff Mastery. Mastery is still weak, so you'd need to buff it too. The fact of the matter is that Haste influences everything. This is no different from MOP with Haste Breakpoints. Nerfing Shooting Stars will nerf Haste too.

DoTs aren't significantly stronger now than they were in WoD, and the slight increase in damage they received is offset by the removal of baseline shooting stars. Pointing to DoTs as the sole reason why Haste is so strong suddenly is a mistake - it's a factor, but one of several.

The problem lies in sapping power away from the AsP spenders into empowerments (thus devaluing Crit) and bad mastery.

At the same time, straight nerfing portions of the kit is not the solution. You're going to end up providing compensatory buffs somewhere down the line - because Balance simply isn't in a spot where it can shrug off a significant nerf and not be in need of buffs - and if those buffs aren't made with the original nerf in mind you'll create more problems. Better to simply shuffle power between spells and provide the compensatory buff at the same time to ensure it's done in a way that addresses the problem.

[Deleted]

Haste is strong because DOTs are very strong.

Run sims, you'll see how more DOTs leads to extreme Haste values. Nerfing DOTs will nerf Haste.

Nerfing Falling Star will buff Mastery. Mastery is still weak, so you'd need to buff it too. The fact of the matter is that Haste influences everything. This is no different from MOP with Haste Breakpoints. Nerfing Shooting Stars will nerf Haste too.

@Cyous, would you mind telling me what talent-build you used for your sim, that gave out the stat values on page 188?