National Anthem Etiquette

[Rizendragon]

Precisely, the thing is that i understand nationalisms in general as a generalization (from a "nice" perspective), thats why they make me uneasy.
I do acknowledge the great things that many americans along history have done for humanity of course, and no, I don't hate the USA as a country...

Europeans equating nationalism and patriotism with Hitler is really the issue. Much the way we on this side of the pond view overreaching government and social systems meant to "help" with a certain amount of skepticism. The EU and the modern European climate were born out of WWII in which a charismatic man lead a desperate populace to a very very dark place. Nationalism isn't a bad thing unless it's manipulated into a means to prevent progress or a means to persecute an innocent people. You being from Spain lends a certain amount of tolerance to the Islamic faith. Saying that you aren't near a country attempting to keep Muslims out is very misleading since France is a leader in that department...

i don't even know when my participation in this thread became an "europe vs america" thingy

As a random european passing by, it buggers me how nationalistic you americans are : /

[Rizendragon]

I still think nationalism fogs the capacity to think for oneself though.

This is only true in cases where it's manipulated to the point Hitler did. What you are referring to is better described as willful ignorance and blind nationalism/patriotism.

[Alydael]

Which is hilariously outmoded and outdated.

If I hear the anthem live at an event I'll take off my hat and stand to attention, but not if I randomly hear it while out and about. If it's a hockey game I'll belt it out along with the rest of them.

But we're more normal in Canada, we don't have a weird obsession with being patriotic..

Why is being patriotic weird or an obsession? Shouldn't you love your country? If I didn't love my country I would go to a country I did love.

[DrStiglit]

If you're at a Best Buy in the TV section and the National Anthem comes on you have to treat it the exact same way. If you're walking your dog in your neighborhood and that old war vet on the corner is playing his old 45s and he happens to play the National Anthem you have to do the honoraries. There's really no exceptions, you behave the same way that you do when an ambulance or fire truck is blaring their siren as they travel to a call: you stop what you're doing, move over to the side and do the honorary.

Yea I would not stop for any of that. Only at a sporting event or if there is a flag being raised would I stop. I just think that is unnecessary. I don't believe you are being disrespectful in either of this situations if you do not stop and salute.

If I were on post, no matter what I would stop, even if driving. It's a different in this scenario. You can believe what you will but I was in ROTC and served in the military for 9 years. It's not a matter of being unpatriotic, it's a matter of being impractical.

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Why is being patriotic weird or an obsession? Shouldn't you love your country? If I didn't love my country I would go to a country I did love.

Are you European? As an American citizen it is not so easy for me to pick up and move to another country.

[Alydael]

Yea I would not stop for any of that. Only at a sporting event or if there is a flag being raised would I stop. I just think that is unnecessary. I don't believe you are being disrespectful in either of this situations if you do not stop and salute.

If I were on post, no matter what I would stop, even if driving. It's a different in this scenario. You can believe what you will but I was in ROTC and served in the military for 9 years. It's not a matter of being unpatriotic, it's a matter of being impractical.

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Are you European? As an American citizen it is not so easy for me to pick up and move to another country.

No, I am American. It is never easy to pick up and move some place new, regardless of where you live. You need a new house/ job/ learn the customs, etc. I just wouldn't want to live in some country I did not love......

[ItachiZaku]

I wonder if you actually did that in a sports stadium, what the people around you would do...

Usually there was 1 person who would quietly make a comment.

[ifrah]

What happens if the anthem is playing from a car which is speeding towards you?

Of course you step aside and live the life of despicable traitor or die proudly as a patriot, the choice is up to you.

[jackofwind]

Why is being patriotic weird or an obsession? Shouldn't you love your country? If I didn't love my country I would go to a country I did love.

My country is fucking fantastic and I love being a Canadian, its something to be proud of. I didn't say being patriotic is obsessive or weird, I said the USA has a weird obsession with being patriotic - so much so that it's become your global stereotype. The patriotic zealotry of much of America is something that is seen by the rest of the world as frequently crossing the line of normalcy.

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No, I am American. It is never easy to pick up and move some place new, regardless of where you live. You need a new house/ job/ learn the customs, etc. I just wouldn't want to live in some country I did not love......

Do you need to stand to attention and sing the anthem of the place you love whenever and wherever you hear it? Is that a prerequisite to show that you love your country? That's what this topic is about. That's what some people in this thread are saying you should do.

[May90]

Why is being patriotic weird or an obsession? Shouldn't you love your country? If I didn't love my country I would go to a country I did love.

I fail to see why you have to "love" a country to live in it. You just need to enjoy living in it. I enjoy living in the US, and there are few countries on this planet I would want to move from here. Doesn't mean I "love" the US. I love people, not chunks of earth.

[TwoNineMarine]

I fail to see why you have to "love" a country to live in it. You just need to enjoy living in it. I enjoy living in the US, and there are few countries on this planet I would want to move from here. Doesn't mean I "love" the US. I love people, not chunks of earth.

It's about what the country represents. Not necessarily the land it's on.

For me I always stop and face either the flag (if I can find it) or wherever the audio is coming from. I make sure my boys do it too although I don't really have to tell them.

The anthem isn't about being a zombie or a sheep or any of that other bullshit. It's about taking a moment to honor those who have sacrificed so that we can have everything we have here in the US. I've been to some shitty countries and it makes me incredibly grateful for everything I have.

A lot of kids these days don't believe in that sort of thing and are so spoiled they will never understand just how good they have it.

[Alydael]

I fail to see why you have to "love" a country to live in it. You just need to enjoy living in it. I enjoy living in the US, and there are few countries on this planet I would want to move from here. Doesn't mean I "love" the US. I love people, not chunks of earth.

You don't love chunks of Earth? Where do you think most of your food comes from? Without "chunks of earth" you would probably have starved to death and you would have nowhere to build your house.

Obviously a country is a construct and not really a physical thing. When people say they "love their country" they are actually referring to the beliefs and values that they think their country stands for. For me, America is: freedom, family and neighbors, treating people equally and giving them a chance to succeed, innovation, hard work and opportunity. I know it isn't perfect, but that is mostly because the government (which I do not love at all) is mucking it up with their greed, corruption and ineptitude (both parties).

So when I say "I love my country," I am mostly referring to striving for the values listed above (I am not perfect either so it is still a work in progress) and my neighbors that also strive for similar values. However, I do actually love the "chunks of Earth" this country is made of. The Grand canyon, the Rockies, the Appalachians, the Great lakes.... this country really has some beautiful land (and I love that too).

[May90]

It's about what the country represents. Not necessarily the land it's on.

For me I always stop and face either the flag (if I can find it) or wherever the audio is coming from. I make sure my boys do it too although I don't really have to tell them.

The anthem isn't about being a zombie or a sheep or any of that other bullshit. It's about taking a moment to honor those who have sacrificed so that we can have everything we have here in the US. I've been to some shitty countries and it makes me incredibly grateful for everything I have.

A lot of kids these days don't believe in that sort of thing and are so spoiled they will never understand just how good they have it.

You don't have to do some weird rituals to respect what the country represents. You don't have to stare at the flag, you don't have to freeze when an anthem is being played, you don't have to swear on flag every morning at high schools - these rituals are pointless, and they are a sign of a cult. And cults are never a good thing.

It is the same gripe I have with a lot of religious people. Yeah, I get it, you love the god, you live by the Bible, etc. - you don't have to stand in a weird posture and "pray" in front of me to show me that. Just love your god and live by the Bible! Why all these shamanic acts?

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You don't love chunks of Earth? Where do you think most of your food comes from? Without "chunks of earth" you would probably have starved to death and you would have nowhere to build your house.

Obviously a country is a construct and not really a physical thing. When people say they "love their country" they are actually referring to the beliefs and values that they think their country stands for. For me, America is: freedom, family and neighbors, treating people equally and giving them a chance to succeed, innovation, hard work and opportunity. I know it isn't perfect, but that is mostly because the government (which I do not love at all) is mucking it up with their greed, corruption and ineptitude (both parties).

So when I say "I love my country," I am mostly referring to striving for the values listed above (I am not perfect either so it is still a work in progress) and my neighbors that also strive for similar values. However, I do actually love the "chunks of Earth" this country is made of. The Grand canyon, the Rockies, the Appalachians, the Great lakes.... this country really has some beautiful land (and I love that too).

Well, in this sense, I guess... But then, almost every country is really beautiful, and almost every country has a lot of awesome people and some nice values. Saying, "I love this country", is not something I would say, simply because, if we talk in these terms, I love the Universe! I love this country, I love Canada, I love Australia, I love Andromeda, I love the quasar I see 11 billions light years ago. Too much love, no need to mention all this.

[Alydael]

My country is fucking fantastic and I love being a Canadian, its something to be proud of. I didn't say being patriotic is obsessive or weird, I said the USA has a weird obsession with being patriotic - so much so that it's become your global stereotype. The patriotic zealotry of much of America is something that is seen by the rest of the world as frequently crossing the line of normalcy.

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Do you need to stand to attention and sing the anthem of the place you love whenever and wherever you hear it? Is that a prerequisite to show that you love your country? That's what this topic is about. That's what some people in this thread are saying you should do.

For me it is something I want to do. It is showing respect for all those that sacrificed (some with their lives) so that I can enjoy the freedom that I do today. I like to hear the anthem and I am happy to respect it.

You can also argue that Americans are known for their patriotism (and I am fine with that). So I guess you sounded very American (or at least it sounds like you understand where we are coming) when you said "My country is fucking fantastic and I love being Canadian, its something to be proud of." I agree with you. I have been to Canada a few times and had a great experience, it is a beautiful place. If I didn't live here (USA), I would probably live there.

[TwoNineMarine]

You don't have to do some weird rituals to respect what the country represents. You don't have to stare at the flag, you don't have to freeze when an anthem is being played, you don't have to swear on flag every morning at high schools - these rituals are pointless, and they are a sign of a cult. And cults are never a good thing.

It is the same gripe I have with a lot of religious people. Yeah, I get it, you love the god, you live by the Bible, etc. - you don't have to stand in a weird posture and "pray" in front of me to demonstrate me that. Just love your god and live by the Bible! Why all these shamanic acts?

Think of it as a cult all you want. If you think taking 30 seconds-1 minute before a football game to listen to the anthem, not be a twat and talk on your phone or some shit, and think about all those who have gone before and sacrificed everything, is akin to being a cult then so be it.

I certainly won't be able to change your mind.

With your mindset there's a lot of shit we shouldn't do because it's cult like: We shouldn't salute fallen first responders/soldiers, we shouldn't lower the flag to half mast in response to a terrible event, we shouldn't have holidays where we take time respect whatever it is the holiday is for.

All of that is pretty cult like amirite?

[Alydael]

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Well, in this sense, I guess... But then, almost every country is really beautiful, and almost every country has a lot of awesome people and some nice values. Saying, "I love this country", is not something I would say, simply because, if we talk in these terms, I love the Universe! I love this country, I love Canada, I love Australia, I love Andromeda, I love the quasar I see 11 billions light years ago. Too much love, no need to mention all this.

I love the universe as well, it is truly incredible and we are only just starting to see it's beauty. I am not sure that all other countries espouse the same values (although I am sure they have great people and places). I can only speak to my experience, so to judge a country- I would have to live and work there for awhile to truly experience the day to day.

[May90]

Think of it as a cult all you want. If you think taking 30 seconds-1 minute before a football game to listen to the anthem, not be a twat and talk on your phone or some shit, and think about all those who have gone before and sacrificed everything, is akin to being a cult then so be it.

I certainly won't be able to change your mind.

With your mindset there's a lot of shit we shouldn't do because it's cult like: We shouldn't salute fallen first responders/soldiers, we shouldn't lower the flag to half mast in response to a terrible event, we shouldn't have holidays where we take time respect whatever it is the holiday is for.

All of that is pretty cult like amirite?

Well, ideally, yeah, I think all these things have little positive influence in themselves, little usefulness. I don't mind holidays though, since it is a good excuse to avoid working!

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I love the universe as well, it is truly incredible and we are only just starting to see it's beauty. I am not sure that all other countries espouse the same values (although I am sure they have great people and places). I can only speak to my experience, so to judge a country- I would have to live and work there for awhile to truly experience the day to day.

Well, some people sometimes compare love towards the country to love towards the parents: the parents might not be the best people in the world, but they are still your parents, so you love them. I can kinda understand this reasoning. As well as I can understand yours.

I'm just saying that loving a country is not a requirement to live happily in it. And displaying your love too much is also not healthy, it is more akin to obsession, it blinds you.

[Alydael]

Well, ideally, yeah, I think all these things have little positive influence in themselves, little usefulness. I don't mind holidays though, since it is a good excuse to avoid working!

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Well, some people sometimes compare love towards the country to love towards the parents: the parents might not be the best people in the world, but they are still your parents, so you love them. I can kinda understand this reasoning. As well as I can understand yours.

I'm just saying that loving a country is not a requirement to live happily in it. And displaying your love too much is also not healthy, it is more akin to obsession, it blinds you.

Well being obsessed with anything is probably a bad idea. I am not so sure about the loving a country is not a requirement to live in it, at least for me. If I didn't like a country and was living there- I would be working towards moving out everyday until I was able. I wouldn't want to raise my family in a place I didn't think was good.

[May90]

Well being obsessed with anything is probably a bad idea. I am not so sure about the loving a country is not a requirement to live in it, at least for me. If I didn't like a country and was living there- I would be working towards moving out everyday until I was able. I wouldn't want to raise my family in a place I didn't think was good.

There is a difference between "like" and "love" though. I like the US, for example, but I don't have any particular feelings towards the country. Nothing wrong with love, my point is just that it is not necessary to be happy.

[nextormento]

Why all these shamanic acts?

Because they have meaning. One you don't have to share, but others do.
Virtually everything we do is a social construct. It doesn't have any inherent value other than what we collectively assign to it. From waving hello, to developing arts, to money, to ethics, to holiday gatherings, to language itself. It's all arbitrary rituals and practices we make in society.

We evolved to do these things; it's just the natural outcome of living in community, and the cohesive force that keeps it together. And we develop what we call feelings for these constructs because we're silly biological blobs geared to extract pleasure from diverse stimuli. Like gathering for Christmas to tell stupid stories, seeing van Gogh's Starry Night, going out with your significant other to see an actual starry night, or singing a national anthem.
That it looks excessively complicated and ritualistic is the simple consequence of these symbols outliving us by a long margin.

Are they useless? Depends. I see no use to religion myself. But others do. And it gives them comfort over the absolute pointlessness of the universe.
They know I won't join hands and pray. They know I won't do any genuflection. But I'm welcomed to be with them at any mass if I chose so. Because these things are not exclusionary in the slightest.

[May90]

Because they have meaning. One you don't have to share, but others do.
Virtually everything we do is a social construct. It doesn't have any inherent value other than what we collectively assign to it. From waving hello, to developing arts, to money, to ethics, to holiday gatherings, to language itself. It's all arbitrary rituals and practices we make in society.

We evolved to do these things; it's just the natural outcome of living in community, and the cohesive force that keeps it together. And we develop what we call feelings for these constructs because we're silly biological blobs geared to extract pleasure from diverse stimuli. Like gathering for Christmas to tell stupid stories, seeing van Gogh's Starry Night, going out with your significant other to see an actual starry night, or singing a national anthem.
That it looks excessively complicated and ritualistic is the simple consequence of these symbols outliving us by a long margin.

Are they useless? Depends. I see no use to religion myself. But others do. And it gives them comfort over the absolute pointlessness of the universe.
They know I won't join hands and pray. They know I won't do any genuflection. But I'm welcomed to be with them at any mass if I chose so. Because these things are not exclusionary in the slightest.

I see your point. There is a difference though. When you say "Hello" to someone, you essentially set up the ground to communicate with them, you demonstrate that you don't mind interacting with them, or, at least, sharing a few pleasantries.

When you stand, looking at the flag with devotion, what are you communicating essentially? "I love this country, I am proud of it, I share its values". My question is, what for? Why do you need to show others that you love this country, are proud of it, share its values?

Coming back to religion, which I see very similar to patriotism in this regard, why do you need to pray with others, showing them that you believe in god? Or, what is that they are required to do, face Mekka 5 times every day, no matter where you are, what you are doing, etc. - can't you avoid doing that and still know that you believe in Allah? I just find these things so strange and unnecessary... It is almost like people aren't sure what they believe in is true, so they seek external approval.