Blizzard realised that addons have to much influence on raiding

[kamuimac]

It's not addons problem, it's design problem. Ion said that he doesn't consider mechanics like wrought chaos difficult, which is bullshit. Also, spreading and, to some extent, positioning would become hell.

as it was meant to be in first place only players broke difficulty in half by designing addon working around it.

and thus devs have choice - either design even harder encounters or break some addons which became to big help.

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awwww, you mad someone using a mod is better at DPS than you are???

and he is not wrong about it - the moment that addon gives unfair advantage it should be disabled/broken as its not the way devs designed this game.

i will give another example - handynotes - it broken whole draenor treasure hunting sense since you had them on your map sicne day 1 - it wasnt what they designed it to be. instead spending dozens of hours looking for treasure people were done in couple runing from point A to point B without looking for them at all.

[Dracodraco]

Just want to chime in about Mark of the Legion - the vast majority of us in the top 1-200 during initial progress didn't have the luxury of addons that shuffled our groups around. They became more commonplace after we killed the boss; all we relied on was something throwing a mark on each person with a debuff, and them going to the right position.

The time left on debuffs doesn't matter - as long as everyones in the middle between marks, you can make it anywhere before your timer runs out.

The shuffling of people to avoid 4 from one group getting marks doesn't matter - we wiped to this maybe twice in over 150 P3's. We've wiped to it twice on farm. It's such a small number that it wasn't worth trying to establish a way to deal with it.

I'm also not surprised that Ion thinks wrought wasn't difficult, considering his guild didn't kill Archimonde before the item level upgrades. By the time he was dealing with wroughts, they had an extra 50K hp buffer, and 10 itemlevels worth of gear extra to push into healing/DPS, making it trivial. Hard part was never wroughts "per say", it was handling wroughts while some people were soaking allure and shackles were being kept alive/people were getting munched by dogs or shuffling away from them.

[BiggestNoob]

Paragon did it by having preassigned locations for raiders. Obviously this is a bit more complicated than just using the radar, but the mechanic absolutely could be handled without a radar.

That doesn't really change the fact that it's a shit mechanic. A circle with a large enough radius would've also worked, but the reason this sucks is because you also have adds running around hitting people and spreading out makes them go everywhere because they can't be tanked.

Paragon's solution works on the same principle. You have two angled lines where everyone who's the target starts on the right. If the angles of these lines are correct, and each player is far enough apart, no wrought will hit anyone more than once. You get the same guarantee from a circle or any shape where a line between two points doesn't intersect anything other than those two points. It's important in their strategy that all of the sources and targets be in the same side and that the way the mechanic works is that the target of a wrought becomes the source of the next one (meaning that property is maintained each time it goes off). I don't think anyone didn't know how to deal with it without an addon after seeing it happen a few times, it's just those solutions suck really badly compared to just using an addon and stacking under the boss.

This whole phase is just probably the worst phase of any boss in HFC, including HFA's AFK phase.

[Nero412]

I dont want to go to offtopic, and its a personal opinion, but i think peopel should be forced to either learn their rotation or suck at it. I dont think an addon shoudl exist that tells you exactly what to push and when.

And yes i think its different then going to a site that tells you your rotation, because that doesnt help you mid combat.

Something that helps you learn your rotation = a ok
Something that tells you what buttons to push during combat = not ok

But again i realise this is not how the majority thinks so yeah.

I think you're confused about Tell Me Whens functionality. It's most widely used to track cooldowns, uptimes, resources, and debuffs; assigning TMW or WA to tell you which button to press is usually a bad idea and doesn't work in high end play, due to the fact circumstances can change midfight that conflict with the addon.

There is no skill in what the addons achieve, they simply enhance the tools you already have. The in-game tracking is garbage, watching multiple corners of your screen to make sure everything is up and on cooldown isn't skill, it's poor design. Addons compact the necessities into an actual proper UI so you can focus on what's important; the boss fight.

[kamuimac]

What blizzard are targeting is something very specific.

you cant know it for sure - this is the very first time they officialy admit the issue - we dont know how far they will go with this in future - just because now they are ok with it, it doesnt mean this wont hange in 1-2 years

[Deleted]

Just want to chime in about Mark of the Legion - the vast majority of us in the top 1-200 during initial progress didn't have the luxury of addons that shuffled our groups around. They became more commonplace after we killed the boss; all we relied on was something throwing a mark on each person with a debuff, and them going to the right position.

The time left on debuffs doesn't matter - as long as everyones in the middle between marks, you can make it anywhere before your timer runs out.

An important advantage from addons was to get the right order of marks. The ideal way to do it appears to be to have the back ones explode first in order to not be knocked back from the back ones to the front with the debuff after having soaked the front ones, or at least not have a front one be exactly in succession with the one right behind it. The soaking of the marks by assigning people to groups helped with addons, though it's not anything critical compared to the marking.

I'm thinking now it might have worked if all 4 were in the same horizontal line, or at least some kind of arc, but not sure if there is space.

Without addons it would be pretty hard core because people would have to check at cast time the remaining time on own debuffs.

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Paragon did it by having preassigned locations for raiders.

That is not the full story even if it always helps to have preassigned positions, addon or not. If you look carefully at the video you posted you will see that it is very easy to hit the guy between two other guys if those two guys are connected. So instead, what they did was still pretty hard core because they had to adjust based on their current debuff on the spot, and if you look carefully you can see at least half them doing small adjustments during the mechanic.

It's not entire horrible though because it appears the default game graphic about it is pretty obvious and I think it can be done by most relatively decent players given enough attention.

edit: At first glance one can think "but you might hit a guy on the opposite side of the oval if two angles converge by chance on him", but that's probably not geometrically possible because one of the beams is directed to someone else next to that target, unless that other target stands by mistake behind him.

[ImpTaimer]

The only difficult mechanics in WoW are RNG-based ones.

Wrought Chaos is a hard mechanic? Seriously? Blizzard made it so painfully obvious you can only fuck it up if you were ignoring mechanics in the first place. You can't even wipe over it the same way you can a bad shadowfel burst or desecrate can.

And the never-fixed Doomfire falling under the world bug? The worst part is that it's easily replicated to the point a tank can grief a raid.

[TheEaterofSouls]

What about mechanics where each raider has to be x-yards away from everyone else. How the hell are we supposed to figure out if were that far away from everyone in the raid? Certain spread mechanics are impossible to judge exact distances between you and each individual player in the raid.

[Deleted]

What about mechanics where each raider has to be x-yards away from everyone else. How the hell are we supposed to figure out if were that far away from everyone in the raid? Certain spread mechanics are impossible to judge exact distances between you and each individual player in the raid.

They probably want you to have a feel about it in "general". e.g. instead of 8 yards "relative close", instead of 20 yards, "far", instead of 40 yards, "way too far". I know, it might suck.

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Ah, they also add those graphical circles now, which is great, assuming all mechanics get it.

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They can't be used for preassigned spacing of course.

[ImpTaimer]

It's entirely possible to judge how far away a player is visually without the need for addons.

The difficulty with shadowfel burst (and similar mechanics) is due to the randomness of itself and other mechanics. You can only spread your raid so thin by reducing the amount of range/healer specs in your raid while worrying about who gets targeted by Doomfire and where the Desecrate spawns.

Expecting people to overgear and cheese mechanics is rude and selfish. Do them properly first, and adjust for oversights.

[cqwrteur]

It is a terrible idea. I have lots of ranged spells like refreshing jade wind or essence font etc. They all need positions to work. Or I can't know how many people in my spells and can't use them well.

FUCK U BLIZZARD.

[ImpTaimer]

They can't be used for preassigned spacing of course.

That's what raid markers are for, and the reason there's a limited amount of them. You shouldn't need them and they exist for stupid-proofing.

At any point raiders feel they have to bring toys or consumables that create additional marks Blizzard will disable them.

It is a terrible idea. I have lots of ranged spells like refreshing jade wind or essence font etc. They all need positions to work. Or I can't know how many people in my spells and can't use them well.

FUCK U BLIZZARD.

RJW is easy to gauge. Essence Font has random element to it but can be gauged by looking at the default raid frames and should be equal responsibility of players to be in range of healer.

[Alvito]

They have said this for a few expansions now and often point out how fights are made with an assumption of dbm/big wig type add ons being used. They really seem to be trying to cut down on all the extra stuff people mess with and turn the focus back to the game itself not the extra bells and whistles made by others. Honestly when I saw the hud that was used for the world 1st Archi kill I thought they would break that then since it negated wrought chao. While it didn't mark things as much as AVR or whatever that ICC add on was, it was close. The more people lean on add ons the less fun fights are in some cases and at some point you aren't playing WoW you are playing an add on game.

[Deleted]

It's entirely possible to judge how far away a player is visually without the need for addons.

Up to ~10 yards though. I doubt you can judge 20 from 30 that easily. Or at least 25 from 30.

Luckily very few mechanics require that kind of information to be preassigned.

[NecroSleetstorm]

Too bad this can't be hotfixed in...this will kick lots of bads, who suck at positioning, away.

[Tradu]

Source?

Always good to leave a source

I think stuff like Tellmewhen and its many copies should be destroyed.

Thats just me though

Yeah, because people showing information in the way they prefer it is bad. Can't have proper buff tracking, no sir.

OT: Agreed that stuff like ERT's Kromog/Kormrok positions were a bit over the top, same with the radars for stuff on Archimonde. It's not quite on the level of the addon they broke in ICC, but it's definitely getting there.

[ImpTaimer]

Up to ~10 yards though. I doubt you can judge 20 from 30 that easily. Or at least 25 from 30.

Luckily very few mechanics require that kind of information to be preassigned.

Correct, however depending on class you play it's easily done due to range limits.

Relatively easier as a healer in general to gauge distances.

[cqwrteur]

That's what raid markers are for, and the reason there's a limited amount of them. You shouldn't need them and they exist for stupid-proofing.

At any point raiders feel they have to bring toys or consumables that create additional marks Blizzard will disable them.



RJW is easy to gauge. Essence Font has random element to it but can be gauged by looking at the default raid frames and should be equal responsibility of players to be in range of healer.

RJW is not easy to gauge. It is 10 yards and much larger than the animation. No one could use it well if they don't have an addon.
EF is 25 yards, not 40 yards. Why do you think it is easy to look at default raid frames?
They have many better options to solve this issue in mythic competition. They could disable all their sucks spreading AOE spells. What is wrong with those APIs?



I spent a week to finish my Geodew addons. So you want to demonize 95% of addons use to kill this game? If they close these APIs, as a programmer, I would quit this game at once.
Stop trolling.

[Tradu]

I think an addon like EnemyGrid should be broken too. This kind of addon was never allowed for 12 years and suddenly it is?

Technically it just rearranges nameplates, which is intended to be allowed by Blizzard(they made a bunch of changes to what you can and can't do with nameplates in Legion). I do agree that it's an extremely powerful addon, however, and wouldn't be surprised if they did break it.

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It wasn't not allowed, someone just hadn't written it yet. It pulls information from the floating nameplates that have always been there.

Not true. You weren't able to do the nameplate wizardry required for EnemyGrid in the past.

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Bit of an oversimplification, because you also need to balance the soaking groups every time the debuffs go out. It's doable without an addon, but it's way easier to just use Mark of the Legion Helper or a WA for that.

You really don't need to balance the groups every time. My guild has 4 preset groups, one for each mark, and I can't think of a single time where we've wiped because a group was too small due to getting other marks.

[ImpTaimer]

RJW is not easy to gauge. It is 10 yards and much larger than the animation. No one could use it well if they don't have an addon.
EF is 25 yards, not 40 yards. Why do you think it is easy to look at default raid frames?



Stop trolling.

This is L2P issue. Stop trying to babysit other players and stop expecting other players to babysit you.