What does Blizzard expect of talents?

[Deleted]

As someone that finds choice annoying I don't like the way legions talents work, especially for Arms.

I've been wondering: Why are there now so many talents that allow you to change your spells and thus change your rotation? Is the idea that you're supposed to pick what you find the most fun? 'I want to keep this rend dot up rather than use Avatar', 'I want to have another big hitter in overpower rather than my abilities cost 20% less rage'

I mean, is that how talents are supposed to work? I've been playing since 2007 and am an alright Pve'er and have raided Mythic but I couldn't tell you what's better between 20% reduction in rage cost or having Overpower and I'm almost certain Blizzard knows that the vast majority don't know which is best. So do they design the talent trees to be choices determined by fun factor or do they expect everyone to look at guides knowing most talents won't be chosen because they're sub-optimal?



This row of talents is really frustrating. How am I supposed to know which is the best without a guide?

Thanks.

[Toybox]

So do they design the talent trees to be choices determined by fun factor or do they expect everyone to look at guides knowing most talents won't be chosen because they're sub-optimal?

Sounds like perfect design to me. Raiders have always done the latter anyway, and this gives more casual players a chance to pick something that really suits their playstyle.

[Lebanese Dude]

You can always min-max, but most of the choices are often obvious in their intended gameplay usage.

To use your example, you take Deadly Calm if you find yourself rage-starved a lot especially if you tend to like to smash buttons. You take Trauma if you want some passive damage for your fillers. You take Titanic Might if you dislike RNG and want consistency rather than opportunistic burst.

Many of the talents also "make sense" together. Deadly Calm and Anger Management go hand in hand for example.

Others are dissonant. Warrior has no comparable example, but Mages have one in Quickening and Charged Up, where the former requires you to never dump your Arcane Charges while the latter fills them for you.

In most cases, you can mix and match to suit your playstyle. Numerically there will always be something superior to others, but other than the main categorization of ST/Cleave/AOE, the differences are often negligible, particularly if the most numerically superior spec requires gameplay that does not appeal to you causing you to fail at it. An example is high APM builds such as spamstring.

[Millie]

As someone that finds choice annoying

Haha what the hell?

This row of talents is really frustrating. How am I supposed to know which is the best without a guide?

By trying them yourself and playing the game? Jesus.

[Yelmurc]

Personally if I was blizzard. I would look into making the choice not be about talents. Seems like its really hard to balance. I'd just create more specs for each class. Then people can just have more choices on specs. Let them play the fantasy of their character rather than trying to put to much into each spec. Simplify.

[Celarent]

Kris Zierhut has half-baked, untenable ideas. That's the clearest answer.

- - - Updated - - -

To elaborate — because I don't think he's a bad guy, just unrealistic — Zierhut's big thing at Blizzcon was "hundreds of new talents" and "more choices that matter" by removing both thematic design and thematic organization, plus introducing rotational abilities. Anyone with their head screwed on straight could see that in any kind of serious play, optimization wins out. Which means that if talents don't increase role output, yet they're on the same rows as talents that do, they will never be involved in a choice that matters. And if talents actually do increase role output, unless they're distinctly situational — a short, weak cooldown versus a long, powerful cooldown for different encounter rhythm or burn timings — raw numbers win out.

The guy just bugs me because he says things that make no sense, but doesn't seem to listen.

[demonhunter50]

WOTLK talents were the best in my opinion.They should have expanded that. For example at 110 you have like 100 talents and I'm certain that with this massive tree you have a lot of in depth options and many builds to play around. The legion talent are kinda lazy with most of the effects just being put out there just to have a "tree".

[Venziir]

WOTLK talents were the best in my opinion.They should have expanded that. For example at 110 you have like 100 talents and I'm certain that with this massive tree you have a lot of in depth options and many builds to play around. The legion talent are kinda lazy with most of the effects just being put out there just to have a "tree".

Only, that no depth was truly offered. Most of it was bland X% dmg/healing/dodge/HP/Mana. That's not fun, interesting or innovative; it's a spreadsheet on crack.

[Millie]

WOTLK talents were the best in my opinion.

How?

In WotLK everyone had the exact same spec at all times with the only "choice" you had being something like 5% more armour vs some out of combat regen or something.

These new talents offer more customization than any of the old systems ever did. I never had a choice like "A whole new ability" vs "changing how an existing ability works", you would always have that new ability and that was that, 30/31/0 or bust or whatever cookie cutter spec your class had.

The problem now is not choice, there is more depth to this swimming pool that the puddle of the old system ever had, the issue is balance which can be solved.

[Firann]

Basicly WoTLK talents are what the artifact talent tree is now. Dmg boosts here and there with 3 new abilities.

[demonhunter50]

How?

In WotLK everyone had the exact same spec at all times with the only "choice" you had being something like 5% more armour vs some out of combat regen or something.

These new talents offer more customization than any of the old systems ever did. I never had a choice like "A whole new ability" vs "changing how an existing ability works", you would always have that new ability and that was that, 30/31/0 or bust or whatever cookie cutter spec your class had.

The problem now is not choice, there is more depth to this swimming pool that the puddle of the old system ever had, the issue is balance which can be solved.

They should have expanded the Wotlk talent tree,if I may ,something similar like Path of Exile.Legion max level will be 110 so 100 talent tree points would be the best for customization and in depth builds.The MOP,WOD and legion talent trees are just too lazy especially for the warrior where most talents are just thrown there.Many people are excited about the artifact tree but honestly it's very similar to wrath's tree so that proves my point.

- - - Updated - - -

Only, that no depth was truly offered. Most of it was bland X% dmg/healing/dodge/HP/Mana. That's not fun, interesting or innovative; it's a spreadsheet on crack.

A poll will definitely say otherwise especially if they'll make the talent tree to have 100 points at max level.Many people are excited about the artifact tree but honestly it's very similar to wrath's tree so that proves my point.

[Warriorsarri]

Who is excited about the Artifact Tree? There's no choices that you can make (Except for the wrong and right ones), and it locks you into one spec, rather than letting you play your entire class.

[demonhunter50]

Who is excited about the Artifact Tree? There's no choices that you can make (Except for the wrong and right ones), and it locks you into one spec, rather than letting you play your entire class.

I am referring to the basic notion of having a talent tree.Spec restriction sucks and also there are choices as long as the skills are well thought and innovative.Check POE for example.Also in Wotlk I personally tried and enjoyed many builds.Of course there was the "best option" but that doesn't stop players to try all the different stuff.

[Venziir]

They should have expanded the Wotlk talent tree,if I may ,something similar like Path of Exile.Legion max level will be 110 so 100 talent tree points would be the best for customization and in depth builds.The MOP,WOD and legion talent trees are just too lazy especially for the warrior where most talents are just thrown there.Many people are excited about the artifact tree but honestly it's very similar to wrath's tree so that proves my point.

- - - Updated - - -



A poll will definitely say otherwise especially if they'll make the talent tree to have 100 points at max level.Many people are excited about the artifact tree but honestly it's very similar to wrath's tree so that proves my point.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure thing!

[Millie]

A poll will definitely say otherwise

Yes, nostalgia is a legitimate mental disability and should be cured.

Now tell me, here's a vanilla talent calculator. http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#L

Show me 3 different Arms builds that vary up/change the spec gameplay as much as modern choice between Passive Heavy/FR-DC/OP-Cleave options.

Many people are excited about the artifact tree

I'll await their disappointment in 7 months when they realise the same thing everyone else did on Beta. Just like vanilla talents it's a shallow checklist of bonuses that you're expected to have at max level, with 0 choice in the end (In this case having them all, rather than having 1 proper spec)

[Zenotetsuken]

They should have expanded the Wotlk talent tree,if I may ,something similar like Path of Exile.Legion max level will be 110 so 100 talent tree points would be the best for customization and in depth builds.The MOP,WOD and legion talent trees are just too lazy especially for the warrior where most talents are just thrown there.Many people are excited about the artifact tree but honestly it's very similar to wrath's tree so that proves my point.

A poll will definitely say otherwise especially if they'll make the talent tree to have 100 points at max level.Many people are excited about the artifact tree but honestly it's very similar to wrath's tree so that proves my point.

I haven't seen ANYONE excited about the Artifact Tree, just about Artifacts. They literally could have lined them in a row from 1 to 18, and given you 1 golden dragon after like every 6th talent selection, and it would have been exactly the same effect.

- - - Updated - - -

I am referring to the basic notion of having a talent tree.Spec restriction sucks and also there are choices as long as the skills are well thought and innovative.Check POE for example.Also in Wotlk I personally tried and enjoyed many builds.Of course there was the "best option" but that doesn't stop players to try all the different stuff.

POE is also not at all balanced among similar specs, let alone completely different specs. Putting one point wrong in a POE spec could mean the difference between a viable spec or not.
The vast majority of the time, just like with WoW, people wait to see what the most popular specs are, and just copy them, for the exact reason that the OP is complaining about... Figuring out if spending 4 points to pick up 5% haste is a better investment than 2 points for 2% crit and 3 points for 3% haste is tedious, but that choice is just as important as any other choice.


Personally, I would rather someone just pick w/e talents they want, and learn how to play optimally with that setup, than to pick the optimum setup and not understand how it works.
One of those things will teach you how to play to your own strengths and weaknesses, the other just lets you get by without truly learning and understanding the mechanics of your class.

[demonhunter50]

I haven't seen ANYONE excited about the Artifact Tree, just about Artifacts. They literally could have lined them in a row from 1 to 18, and given you 1 golden dragon after like every 6th talent selection, and it would have been exactly the same effect.

- - - Updated - - -



POE is also not at all balanced among similar specs, let alone completely different specs. Putting one point wrong in a POE spec could mean the difference between a viable spec or not.
The vast majority of the time, just like with WoW, people wait to see what the most popular specs are, and just copy them, for the exact reason that the OP is complaining about... Figuring out if spending 4 points to pick up 5% haste is a better investment than 2 points for 2% crit and 3 points for 3% haste is tedious, but that choice is just as important as any other choice.


Personally, I would rather someone just pick w/e talents they want, and learn how to play optimally with that setup, than to pick the optimum setup and not understand how it works.
One of those things will teach you how to play to your own strengths and weaknesses, the other just lets you get by without truly learning and understanding the mechanics of your class.

That's the beauty of it : having tons of options - good or bad or whatever builds to play around.Pruning down the abilities and also a simplified talent tree with some useless talents for warriors for example is way worse in my opinion.Also many talents are past skills we used to have before which is unoriginal and a cheap way to make the rotation more appealing.
There is no perfect balance so I don't know why you are complaining about POE,but it's more complex and more appealing than wow's talent tree especially for me.My point is we need an in depth talent tree with many points which makes us intrigued and excited to figure out all the builds we could possibly do. Simplifying and making wow casual is a company decision and the talent tree is a part of it.As I said before, for this to happen we need many innovative and on point ideas for stuff to actually make sense, not just to throw talents out there like they did now.

[ComputerNerd]

This row of talents is really frustrating. How am I supposed to know which is the best without a guide?

Thanks.

If you are having to use a guide to determine which is best, then blizzard are arguably going about it the right way.
In that there isn't one you simply deem outright better.

[Zenotetsuken]

That's the beauty of it : having tons of options - good or bad or whatever builds to play around.Pruning down the abilities and also a simplified talent tree with some useless talents for warriors for example is way worse in my opinion.Also many talents are past skills we used to have before which is unoriginal and a cheap way to make the rotation more appealing.
There is no perfect balance so I don't know why you are complaining about POE,but it's more complex and more appealing than wow's talent tree especially for me.My point is we need an in depth talent tree with many points which makes us intrigued and excited to figure out all the builds we could possibly do. Simplifying and making wow casual is a company decision and the talent tree is a part of it.As I said before, for this to happen we need many innovative and on point ideas for stuff to actually make sense, not just to throw talents out there like they did now.

What my point was, is that if you add a talent system like PoE as an example, you would end up with a balancing nightmare. The difference between WoW and PoE that you seem to be forgetting, is that Blizzard needs to balance classes against other classes.
PoE doesn't have as much of a problem with that, because
A) There are FAR less people playing PoE,
B) PoE isn't an MMO the way that WoW is an MMO,
C) There are no classes (for the most part) in PoE,
D) There is no real competition in PoE outside of friendly short term bragging,
E) Every season in PoE completely new specs become viable through buffs/nerfs of talents, as well as the majority of the old specs becoming useless,
F) Etc.
G) Etc.
H) Etc.

They are 2 completely different games, and 2 completely different styles. Just because something works in one game, doesn't mean that it would work in another.

If WoW used the same talent system as PoE, the exact same thing that already happens with PoE would happen with WoW, people would let the math nerds figure out what is the best spec, then they would spec their character that way. Which is why they stopped the talent "Tree" that they used to have. When there is a "Best" option, then every other "Option" is merely an illusion of choice. Which, as shown by the OP, is proof that their talent system is working the way it should.

[Esandarius]

I'm a bit lost as well. I played warrior some in Classic (mained a paladin) and leveled to 80 in WotLK mainly through prot. I've stuck in prot spec almost exclusively because I really dislike damage windows and all the procs needed to do dps in arms and fury (which means I'm really frustrated with the ret paladin changes in Legion).

One thing I really liked about Classic warriors was rend and overpower (not off any attack, but off dodges and with the talent proccing from bleeds) and the simplicity of the spec. I don't want to chose them as talents because of how it might do to the rest of my character, but I plan on doing just that to try and recreate the old fun. So rend, overpower, mortal strike, slam (will be using the icon for heroic strike), cleave, execute, hamstring, intimidating shout. I'll be just like I used to be, but with the addition of colossal smash.

RIP my dps (was doing 20k in mythic dungeons in full invasion gear + legendary ring).

Worth it.