Munkkys Vengeance Demon Hunter Guide UPDATED 7.3

[Noix]

Has anyone tried to level as Vengeance on the Beta? Too slow compared to Havoc?

i lvl up as veng on beta.. i dont find it too slow.. but then again i only lvled as veng didnt do anything else.. or other classes.. so my word might be different but it seem decent

[Deleted]

Hi, i would like to know how to use Demon Spikes exactly ? I keep reading or hearing the same thing : "use it when u need it" but i feel like without it, multiple adds or a boss can two shot you (can happen at the pull without any pain and a lot of adds in raid). Atm it's pretty easy to keep it almost permanently but at the release, with almost 20 sec cd per charge it's gonna be difficult...
I tried to watch some videos of VDH going in mythic+8-10 to see how they handled it, but not really conclusive. How many times i saw them keeping it cap a 2 charges for no reason and struggle low life by spamming soul cleave.

Or maybe i'm just an idiot for finding it confusing :/

Hope you can clarify this point. Thx

[jayinjersey]

I use it on CD if the boss if I have things attacking me...but if I have a lot of shards out, I may wait a hit or two so I can scoop them up, heal back up then protect myself again...and generate more shards to do it again.

My life definitely dips a bunch more than other tanks I've played...but I don't think it dangerously does so.....except on the Invasion bosses when there are 100 people fighting it. Fricking thing scales like a mofo...

[Hallzao]

I use one on the CD and leave the other situational.
Idem Infernal Strike.

[shanthi]

Keeping one Demon Spikes banked and one on cooldown at all times makes the most sense, IMO. All it costs you is one more Demon Spikes used early in the encounter. After that, you still end up getting one on cooldown like you would the rest of the encounter anyway. And it means you have a Demon Spikes always ready for a serious moment later in the encounter.

[Deleted]

Is there any information about what trinkets are looking to be the best in Legion? The alchemy trinket in particular seems insane compared to a lot of the other options even mythic raid trinkets that are 55 item levels higher. Unsure how good Darkmoon Deck: Immortality is. I found Horn of Valor to be pretty good for mythic+ for some insane burst on hard trash packs with brand/carver/devastation/etc every 2 mins. Apologies if this info is already out there, but I couldn't find any.

[evermynd]

Hi, i would like to know how to use Demon Spikes exactly ? I keep reading or hearing the same thing : "use it when u need it" but i feel like without it, multiple adds or a boss can two shot you (can happen at the pull without any pain and a lot of adds in raid). Atm it's pretty easy to keep it almost permanently but at the release, with almost 20 sec cd per charge it's gonna be difficult...
I tried to watch some videos of VDH going in mythic+8-10 to see how they handled it, but not really conclusive. How many times i saw them keeping it cap a 2 charges for no reason and struggle low life by spamming soul cleave.

Or maybe i'm just an idiot for finding it confusing :/

Hope you can clarify this point. Thx

Obviously you would want to know the encounter so that if a huge physical dmg spike was incoming you could know to have a charge to prepare for it, but in general use you should use a charge and then try to delay using the next charge by filling downtime with things like fiery brand and soul cleaves to delay using the second one for a few extra seconds and then use the second one when you have nothing else available.

It's just a matter of juggling your available survival spells to make sure you have something to protect you at all times. Kinda like rotating cooldowns on a blood dk.

[Simulacrum]

Does it make sense to worry about the dangers posed by magical damage come Legion?

Far as I can tell, vengeance has no scaling magical DR at all, and what little magical DR we do have is a meager 30% with 30% uptime in empowered wards, and possibly 40% with a 13.3% uptime for single-target damage in fiery brand. That's only a ~45% uptime on fairly low magical damage mitigation, while the rest of the time we may as well be a DPS as far as the boss is concerned. Well, we have soul cleave heals, but those don't scale with damage taken, so while I'm sure those'll be fine in easy content, it seems like they wouldn't be in hard content.

I guess we can gear versatility for that, but it seems kind of annoying to have to carry around, like, a secondary set of gear with versatility on all of it in case we have to tank something that does a lot of magical damage.

[evermynd]

we also have a 10% baseline mr 100% of the time. You shouldn't underestimate the power of being able to heal up magical dmg taken. Empowered wards is also on a damn short cooldown which makes it likely that we can reduce every single big magical attack we take and we don't have to sacrifice anything to get it unlike a druid that has to spend rage and armor to get the mr.

[Better]

Does it make sense to worry about the dangers posed by magical damage come Legion?

Far as I can tell, vengeance has no scaling magical DR at all, and what little magical DR we do have is a meager 30% with 30% uptime in empowered wards, and possibly 40% with a 13.3% uptime for single-target damage in fiery brand. That's only a ~45% uptime on fairly low magical damage mitigation, while the rest of the time we may as well be a DPS as far as the boss is concerned. Well, we have soul cleave heals, but those don't scale with damage taken, so while I'm sure those'll be fine in easy content, it seems like they wouldn't be in hard content.

I guess we can gear versatility for that, but it seems kind of annoying to have to carry around, like, a secondary set of gear with versatility on all of it in case we have to tank something that does a lot of magical damage.

you missed the 100% uptime on our passive 10% magic damage reduction. And since when is 30% and 40% "fairly low" magical damage mitigation?

[Simulacrum]

you missed the 100% uptime on our passive 10% magic damage reduction. And since when is 30% and 40% "fairly low" magical damage mitigation?

Well, with demon spikes up I have like 70% physical damage mitigation and 50% avoidance. Compared to that, it seems pretty low.

[Better]

Well, with demon spikes up I have like 70% physical damage mitigation and 50% avoidance. Compared to that, it seems pretty low.

you also get a large amount of that phys damage mitigation passively, you're not meant to have 70% magic damage reduction up for every spell.

[Simulacrum]

you also get a large amount of that phys damage mitigation passively, you're not meant to have 70% magic damage reduction up for every spell.

Well, warrior does have 90% damage mitigation up for every spell. And on my paladin my mastery is just as effective against both (and I can block spells), and on my DK my AM is only slightly weaker against magic than it is against physical; the shield even scaling off the magic damage you take to mitigate more physical damage, so even for DKs their AM is 100% effective against magical unless you take almost no physical damage at the same time.

Don't have a bear so I can't talk about them, but for all the other tanks I have they seem much stronger against magical than DHs do.

[evermynd]

Well, warrior does have 90% damage mitigation up for every spell. And on my paladin my mastery is just as effective against both (and I can block spells), and on my DK my AM is only slightly weaker against magic than it is against physical; the shield even scaling off the magic damage you take to mitigate more physical damage, so even for DKs their AM is 100% effective against magical unless you take almost no physical damage at the same time.

Don't have a bear so I can't talk about them, but for all the other tanks I have they seem much stronger against magical than DHs do.

also consider that in situations where big bursts of magic damage happen, the more threatening thing is dying to the next melee attack. Our increased parry on demon skin artifact trait is great for this. We are also one of the few tanks that have the option to spec into a purgatory type talent which prevents us from dying to burst magic damage.

There would have to be some really extreme magic damage fights for us to be at a point where we just couldn't tank a boss. And if those existed, we would not be the only tank to suffer.

[Neudgae]

Does it make sense to worry about the dangers posed by magical damage come Legion?

Far as I can tell, vengeance has no scaling magical DR at all, and what little magical DR we do have is a meager 30% with 30% uptime in empowered wards, and possibly 40% with a 13.3% uptime for single-target damage in fiery brand. That's only a ~45% uptime on fairly low magical damage mitigation, while the rest of the time we may as well be a DPS as far as the boss is concerned. Well, we have soul cleave heals, but those don't scale with damage taken, so while I'm sure those'll be fine in easy content, it seems like they wouldn't be in hard content.

I guess we can gear versatility for that, but it seems kind of annoying to have to carry around, like, a secondary set of gear with versatility on all of it in case we have to tank something that does a lot of magical damage.

play a bear druid before the change, there was 0 damage reduction for magic in our entire kit, meh healing, and savage defense was a joke spell extra dodge? wtf?

[Deleted]

play a bear druid before the change, there was 0 damage reduction for magic in our entire kit, meh healing, and savage defense was a joke spell extra dodge? wtf?

SI and Bristling fur/Pulv? They had enough in their kit to handle all the magic stuff in HFC pretty well, warriors were way worse off.

[shammypie]

Hello this is my quick list of talents for Vengence at 110
This isn't a pro guide but something for people who are lost.

Shammypie's 110 super easy mode DH
intended audience: new dh not doing mythic
Note: I haven't had beta access so row 108 is
is more from a theoretical stand point as pain
management will determine which ability prevails
PVE Tanking

Talents
1. agaonizing flames for utility and add dmg
2. Feast of Souls for extra healing, fallout on "trash fights"
3. Flame crash for instant add pickup
4. Feed the demon for longer demon spikes coverage,
5. concentrated sigils
6. Spirit Bomb
7. Soul barrier

note: Fracture and Blade turning are a decent replacement
for players better at timing abilities and managing pain

Artifact pathing:
your choice though charred warblades is super helpful

Stats
no comment

Rotation
In general you want to soul carver, immo, flame sigil and shear
keep high pain levels and keep 1 charge of demon spikes for big physical hits
use empowered wards for big single magic hits
If you know something big is coming, Soul carver + barrier right before will
let you survive a lot also due to painbringer.
Using spirit bomb to tag a group of adds and then jumping in with flame crash
will make the transistion easy for your healers.
Alternatively you can use fel Devastion but the channeling
doesn't make it nearly as good vs a boss.

PvP tanking
note: talents will depend on your pvp setting. Arena and BG will be
vastly different and it will also depend on whether or not your a FC.
This guide is written for random bg goers.

1. Arathi Basin style - agonizing flames, FC - Abyssal Strike, Arena - Razor Spikes?
2. feast of Souls - gotta live
3. Felblade - better charge, situanol use as FC for flame crash
4. Soul Rending, too pain starved for fracture
5. Fel Eruption - range, damage, and stun nuf said
6. Fel Devastion for burst AE dmg and self heals
7. Soul barrier, Last resort if you have trouble using defense cds

PvP Talents
1. Your choice
2. FC - softened Blows, General - Tormentor
3. Rain of Chaos
4. Reverse Magic, Arena - eyeof Leo
5. Cleansed by fire, Arena - jagged spikes if facing lots of melee
6. Illidan's Grasp, FC - Demonic Trample

[Deleted]

Why...why is there no colorful display of traits we should follow? Just like in Havoc thread? I would like to know what is the best order of following things.

[Zabbs]

@Annie Mee

That is in Munkky's in progress Legion guide at:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...ilebasic?pli=1

This is just a pre-patch guide.

[Deleted]

@Annie Mee

That is in Munkky's in progress Legion guide at:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...ilebasic?pli=1

This is just a pre-patch guide.

thanks! 2 paths, this guy likes to make choices complicated!