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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    This is still different. They physically brought Mannoroth back to life as well. Like fully healed him and then some with fel magic. As far as I know, it's not possible for that to happen to undead. There's a reason the forsaken look like rotting corpses instead of normal humans. They cannot be revived fully. They're just a corpse. Mannorth was not just a corpse. Only temporarily was one while he was regenerating a new body in the Twisting Nether.
    I haven't caught up to what you guys are discussing about in this thread yet, but in regards to this - Mannoroth in HFC was an undead demon. Muffinus answered that before.
    Originally Posted by Muffinus

    Well, yes, Mannoroth is an undead demon. Demons know how to raise undead, and he was a demon previously.
    It's possible that all the healing and empowering was something limited to undead demons only.
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang
    Donnons le sang de guillotine
    Pour guerir la secheresse de la guillotine
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    I haven't caught up to what you guys are discussing about in this thread yet, but in regards to this - Mannoroth in HFC was an undead demon. Muffinus answered that before.
    It's possible that all the healing and empowering was something limited to undead demons only.
    That seems so pointless and breaks prior lore entirely doesn't it? Isn't the purpose of having an immortal demon soul be that you just regenerate a body? Archimonde died already in the multiverse yet we fight him again and he isn't considered and undead at all. Why is Mannoroth different?

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    That seems so pointless and breaks prior lore entirely doesn't it? Isn't the purpose of having an immortal demon soul be that you just regenerate a body? Archimonde died already in the multiverse yet we fight him again and he isn't considered and undead at all. Why is Mannoroth different?
    The thing is that, for demons normally, they'd regenerate a new body in the Nether. The process (probably) takes time, but they are guaranteed to get a new, healthy body instead even without any outside help. The old body (if there was any) would be left wherever it was when the demon was defeated. Archimonde's followed this, so he was considered reborn / reform a new, living body. Not undead.

    On the other hand, Mannoroth was reforming a new body (fair to assume that he hasn't finished doing so yet) when Gul'dan forcibly pull his soul back to the physical universe and used it to reanimate his old, already dead body. That's a different situation - it's not something Mannoroth could control. He was weak at the start of the fight - understandably, since his body was pretty much just bones by then. He only was healed / regained a normal body after Gul'dan injected a big chunk of Fel into him - but still, that was a dead body nonetheless.
    Last edited by Qualia; 2016-08-21 at 08:51 AM.
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang
    Donnons le sang de guillotine
    Pour guerir la secheresse de la guillotine
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    The thing is that, for demons normally, they'd regenerate a new body in the Nether. The process (probably) takes time, but they are guaranteed to get a new, healthy body instead even without any outside help. The old body (if there was any) would be left wherever it was when the demon was defeated. Archimonde's followed this, so he was considered reborn / reform a new, living body. Not undead.

    On the other hand, Mannoroth was reforming a new body (fair to assume that he hasn't finished doing so yet) when Gul'dan forcibly pull his soul back to the physical universe and used it to reanimate his old, already dead body. That's a different situation - it's not something Mannoroth could control. He was weak at the start of the fight - understandably, since his body was pretty much just bones by then. He only was healed / regained a normal body after Gul'dan injected a big chunk of Fel into him - but still, that was a dead body nonetheless.
    It just seems like something so different to me and would... kinda go against their previous lore I'm sure. I figured it would be something like how the first Death Knights were made except those were mortal beings without an eternal soul so they were truly dead (they also weren't put back into their own body). It would make much much more sense to me to just say that Mannoroth was resurrected like a priest or paladin would do it except he was only bones at the start because that was what was left of his body. Still wouldn't make him undead if he was being kept alive forcibly. Like... life support. Gul'dan only left after Mannoroth was at super strength so I'm assuming he was needed to keep Mannoroth's soul inside of those bones which were not alive.

    My stance is that I'm certain that this is some weird sort of undeath that is limited to something like demons and demonic magic and couldn't be replicated by pure necromancy. But this does give some credibility to the theory that demons can be resurrected... though I don't know how that would go. I would assume something like... you can reanimate the bones to do your bidding but the soul will continue to reform in the Nether? Would be kinda cool to see a purely undead necromantic version of Mannoroth fight against his reformed body lol

  5. #185
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    The thing is that, for demons normally, they'd regenerate a new body in the Nether. The process (probably) takes time, but they are guaranteed to get a new, healthy body instead even without any outside help. The old body (if there was any) would be left wherever it was when the demon was defeated. Archimonde's followed this, so he was considered reborn / reform a new, living body. Not undead.

    On the other hand, Mannoroth was reforming a new body (fair to assume that he hasn't finished doing so yet) when Gul'dan forcibly pull his soul back to the physical universe and used it to reanimate his old, already dead body. That's a different situation - it's not something Mannoroth could control. He was weak at the start of the fight - understandably, since his body was pretty much just bones by then. He only was healed / regained a normal body after Gul'dan injected a big chunk of Fel into him - but still, that was a dead body nonetheless.
    I think both you and aqua monkey are getting off topic slightly where not saying mannototh wasn't a type of unread. Where say I g a death Knight could not raise a unread demon. But a warlock can. As they have avsess to the testing nether and can summon the soul back. Where a death Knight cannot.
    That is the actual debate. But again this is a British bulldog thread. Why is anyone debating?

    Ehrte saying warlocks could use fel magic to raise demons. But death knights could not. It was a warlock only thing. Because death knights don't use fel magic. And idk if anyone saw. But to revive mannoroth they had his bones in a pile of fel goop. And where empowering him with massive amounts of fel. Eventually rebuilding his body with it

    Death knights aouldent have access to demon souls. Or fel magic. And we know this as even frostmourne. Striking down malganis. His soul was free before frostmourne was destroyed. Meaning demonic souls are immune to death magic it seems.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Soul animating a pile of bones is not undead... You do know that undead can have free will, right?
    ^^^^^^^^^^
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2016-08-21 at 10:35 AM.
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    Remove combat, Mobs, PvP, and Difficult Content

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    yeah umm no... the dreadlords are able to control the mindless undead, and being so far from the leader (bolvar) and so close to the dreadlords, would most likley mean the dreadlords would simply take hold of them and use them against us... so shut up
    lol You are always so testy. When I see you posting a reply, I think "let's see how overly serious and how many insults he is going to throw this time over the tiniest opinion someone has" before I even read the reply.

  7. #187
    Lich King is lil'bitch who was soloed by old man with Ashbringer, lol.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    ELI5. Putting soul into corpse is different than raising undead how?
    By that logic resurrection creates undead too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    To be fair, Mannoroth is nothing more but a skeleton at the very beginning of the fight, which made him not all that different from any skeleton warrior of the Scourge.
    It looked like some Fel fuckery regeneration and not undeath. Skeletal warriors of the Scourge do not regrow their flesh from nothing from what I recall. If anything, they do just the opposite, like the Black Knight. Most stay the way they were resurrected for all eternity. At the end he was just his normal self with nothing hinting to him being undead. Like, I dunno, Wolverine can regenerate from a drop of his blood. Does not make him undead. The difference is that demons regenerate from less, just their soul, but in the Nether. In this case he just had help from Warlocks to make it possible on a mortal plane (and possibly faster). Then again Blizzard did call him an undead even though him regrowing his flesh out of thin air matches nothing of the other undead we see anywhere else in WoW, so it's kinda pointless discussion. Just to point out yet another inconsistency on Blizzard's part.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2016-08-21 at 12:21 PM.
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    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    ELI5. Putting soul into corpse is different than raising undead how?
    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=2006/resurrection


    Formerly known as Arafal

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by British Bulldog View Post
    Should had called Bolvar the LICH KING. He would had soloed the broken shores by himself, especially if he has a company of Death Knights with him.
    Solo in the company of death knights.

    SMH what did u just say.................. mind blown by stupidity.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feel The Power View Post
    lol You are always so testy. When I see you posting a reply, I think "let's see how overly serious and how many insults he is going to throw this time over the tiniest opinion someone has" before I even read the reply.
    Hing is this is British bulldog. The man who constantly tries to convince us the lich king is stronger then sargeras...
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    Remove combat, Mobs, PvP, and Difficult Content

  12. #192
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    Imagine hordes of zombies getting MCed by dreadlords. Lol that would be so fun
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    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    By that logic resurrection creates undead too.




    It looked like some Fel fuckery regeneration and not undeath. Skeletal warriors of the Scourge do not regrow their flesh from nothing from what I recall. If anything, they do just the opposite, like the Black Knight. Most stay the way they were resurrected for all eternity. At the end he was just his normal self with nothing hinting to him being undead. Like, I dunno, Wolverine can regenerate from a drop of his blood. Does not make him undead. The difference is that demons regenerate from less, just their soul, but in the Nether. In this case he just had help from Warlocks to make it possible on a mortal plane (and possibly faster). Then again Blizzard did call him an undead even though him regrowing his flesh out of thin air matches nothing of the other undead we see anywhere else in WoW, so it's kinda pointless discussion. Just to point out yet another inconsistency on Blizzard's part.
    We'll only muffins did. And to be fair. He's not the best lore nerd
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  14. #194
    TL;DR God-like Lich King = One of the most powerful beings in Warcraft Lore seemingly on par with the rest of the Gods / Titans / Lords .

    Spoiler: 
    Light is a cosmic force that is generally manifested as holy magic. Pure Light dwells in a realm outside the borders of reality, but shades of its presence are found in the physical universe. In contradiction to the Shadow, it is still bound to the Shadow on a cosmic scale. The counter-balancing force to Light is Shadow.

    Shadow and Light are the most fundamental forces in existence. They are bound together on a cosmic scale, although contradictory by their very nature. One cannot exist without the other. Pure Shadow and Light dwell in a realm outside the borders of reality, but shades of their presence are found in the physical universe. Shadow (also referred to as "the Void") appears as shadow magic.

    The Void is the cold, physical manifestation of the dark energies of the Shadow and grows from the absence of Light. It strives against the Light and consumes holy magic and twists its creative power.

    >> The birth of the cosmos flung shards of Light, a benevolent and mysterious force, throughout reality. These shards suffused the matter of myriad worlds with the spark of life, giving rise to creatures of wondrous and terrible diversity. Composed of the primordial matter from which the universe was born, the titans are godlike beings. Their spirits--known as world-souls--formed deep within the fiery core of a small number of worlds.

    >> Before the physical universe existed, there was Light and there was Void. In the formed of a boundless prismatic sea, the Light swelled across all existence unfettered by the confines of time and space. Great torrents of living energy flitted through its mirrored depths, their movements conjuring a symphony of joy and hope. However, the ocean of Light was ever shifting and dynamic. As it expanded, some of its energies dimmed and faded, leaving behind pockets of cold nothingness. A new power coalesced and came to be from the absence of Light in these spaces. A dark and vampiric force driven to devour all energy, to twist creation inward to feed upon itself, this power was the Void. Moving against the Light's flowing waves, the Void quickly grew and spread its influence. Eventually a series of catastrophic explosions was ignited by the mounting tension between these two opposing yet inseparable energies, rupturing the fabric of creation and birthing a new realm into existence. In that moment, the physical universe was born.

    The most unstable energies coalesced into an astral dimension known as the Twisting Nether. Light and Void collided and bled together at the edges of this realm, throwing it into turmoil. Although tangentially linked to the Great Dark Beyond, the Twisting Nether existed outside the borders of the physical universe. Even so, the volatile energies of the Twisting Nether would occasionally tear through the veil of the Great Dark, flooding into reality and warping creation.

    >> The Great Dark Beyond, also known as Great Dark, Great Beyond, Dark Beyond, or simply Beyond, is the empty void between worlds. It is described as the first of everything when there was nothing, and is part of the primary Material Plane, as opposed to the Twisting Nether. It is essentially the name given to outer space in the Warcraft universe.

    The Warcraft RPG implies that the Twisting Nether is a smaller part of the Great Dark, but that there is no specific definable boundary between the two. This was likely made to explain why the terms are sometimes interchangeable. The Warcraft Encyclopedia now confirms that the Great Dark includes the Twisting Nether, rather than vice-versa.

    >> In the novel, "The Sundering" , it is hinted that the Old Gods may be more powerful than the Titans, including Sargeras even. It is said that they are extremely powerful and that the combined might of many Titans are required to subdue them. It is also stated that if they are freed, even Sargeras will plead for the peace of death. This is further supported by their statement that little effort is needed to destroy Sargeras and turn his Burning Legion into their minions.

    However, on the Blizzcon 2014 Q&A it has been said that "Sargeras pleading for the peace of death" is only a metaphor and Sargeras with his Legion are still the main threat to Azeroth and the whole Universe.

    >> Ghosts are tortured spirits who writhe in the agony of undeath. Usually unable to realize that they are no longer alive, they roam the trackless wastes between the Twisting Nether and the physical world, seeking release from their eternal suffering. Though they are not necessarily evil, they often hunger for physical contact, often causing great harm to any living beings they touch.

    >> The Plague of Undeath is a magical affliction first conjured by Ner'zhul, the Lich King (under the direction of the demon lord Kil'jaeden), from his icy prison within the Frozen Throne in Northrend in order to create the Scourge (which was intended to be a vanguard for the Burning Legion during the attack on Azeroth).

    >> The undead were once-living creatures, now animated by spiritual or supernatural forces. The term undead refers to all creatures or entities that function normally despite having terminated life functions. Most commonly known as zombies or ghosts, undead beings are most typically mindless, bloodthirsty fiends hostile toward any living thing that comes across their path.

    The undead have appeared all throughout Azeroth, most commonly in nature as revenants or wraiths. They were used as a combat tool during the First War when the necrolytes of the Horde learned to animate corpses as skeleton warriors in their fight against the Alliance. Later, the studies of the necrolytes developed into necromancy, the form of magic used very heavily in the Third War when the Cult of the Damned spread the Plague of Undeath across Lordaeron.


    In modern times, "undead" refers primarily to either the Scourge or the Forsaken, since nearly half of the human race have since become undead. However, Forsaken player characters and NPCs are for most intents and purposes considered to be "humanoids" in World of Warcraft due to gameplay reasons and do not share all the characteristics of other undead. This is not the case according to the lore in other sources where Forsaken share all the characteristics of standard Undead.

    >> Sargeras and Aggramar continued their hunt for demons. The champions agreed that they could protect more worlds if they worked apart, only calling on each other for aid in times of dire need. Thus, they went their separate ways. It was during this epoch that Sargeras discovered the full horror of the void lord's plans. He was drawn to a corner of the Great Dark, where cold Void energies radiated out from a black and desiccated world. There, Sargeras found enormous beings he had never seen, festering across the world's surface. There, Sargeras found the Old Gods, and they had embedded themselves in the world and shrouded it in a veil of Void energies. With horror, Sargeras realized that this was not just any world. He heard the world-soul dreaming within its core. But these were not the joyous dreams Sargeras recognized from other spirits. They were dark and horrific nightmares. The Old Gods' tendrils had burrowed deep, enveloping the slumbering titan's spirit in shadow.

    A conclave of nathrezim, great and powerful demons, had also discovered this world. They came to dwell among the Old Gods, basking in their dark power. Sensing their evil, Sargeras captured and ruthlessly interrogated the nathrezim. The demons revealed what they had learned. If the Void's powers succeeded in corrupting a nascent titan, it would awaken as an unspeakably dark creature. No power in creation, not even the Pantheon, could stand stand against it. In time, the warped titan would consume all matter and energy in the universe, bringing every mote of existence under the void lords' will. Sargeras knew fear for the first time. It dawned on him that just as the Pantheon had been searching for world-souls, so, too, had the void lords. Sargeras had never dreamed that Void energies could so utterly consume a slumbering titan. Yet the proof was right there before his eyes. He smote the nathrezim with a single blow, rage and anguish burning through his soul. His heart ached with sorrow and turned his attention to the black world itself, knowing there was only one way to stop the dark titan from rising. With a heave of his blade, Sargeras split the world in two. The resultant explosion consumed the Old Gods and their energies, but it killed the nascent titan as well.

    >> Nathrezim (called dread lords or dreadlords in the Common tongue are intelligent and cunning demons who were discovered and recruited to the ranks of the Burning Legion by Sargeras, the dark titan. "The mysterious beings of the Burning Legion called the dreadlords are also known racially as the Nathrezim. Little is known of their homeworld and even that is rumor. They act as tacticians and lieutenants upon the field of battle in time of war, as well as being emissaries and agents for the fiery lords of the Legion, notably Kil'jaeden. During the Third War, they served as the Lich King's jailors, on the behest of Kil'jaeden, and commanded the Plague that swept through Lordaeron.

    In the case of nathrezim, it should be noted that they posses the ability to reform themselves after being defeated (in some situations), to that end certain terms should be given context-specific meanings for the purpose of explaining this ability. To "kill" a dreadlord typically implies that their body is slain but their spirit endures, capable of regenerating its lost physical form after a particular amount of time or some other condition has been met. The complete eradication of a dreadlord, both in body and spirit, is generally thought of as "destroyed", representing a final end to their existence in both forms. It is also notable that many high ranking dreadlords have cheated death, or can be seen to be immortal unless vanquished in a particular fashion (similar to homage of the species, the vampire).

    >> The fallen titan decimated the Pantheon members with fel fire until he had broken their will to fight and to seal their demise, he summoned a massive fel storm that would consume their bodies and souls alike. Yet just as the onslaught of energy washed over the defeated titans, Norgannon - master magician - made one last attempt to stave off oblivion.

    Norgannon bent the raw energies of the universe to his will, weaving a shroud around each of the Pantheon titans' spirit and launching them into the Great Dark. While the titans' disembodied souls hurtled through the cosmos, Sargeras's fel storm obliterated what remained of their physical forms. Unaware that the spirits had survived, Sargeras declared the Burning Legion victorious. The Pantheon was no more, and he now had clues about a world-soul called Azeroth.

    The fight with the Pantheon had exposed a flaw in his seemingly unstoppable army. For all of Sargeras's vast power and intellect, he could not direct his entire army at once. Demons were vicious and bloodthirsty, but most lacked strategic thinking. Much of the Legion had fallen needlessly to the Pantheon. Sargeras wanted cunning and tactically minded commanders to join his side, and he had seen a place from which to harvest such servants: a world called Argus. Argus was home to the highly advanced eredar, a race far more intelligent than any other Sargeras had encountered. Believing that this gifted race would be crucial in his quest to undo all of creation, Sargeras contacted the eredar’s leaders – Kil’jaeden, Archimonde, and Velen, offering them knowledge and power in exchange for their loyalty.

    >> In the novel War of the Ancients, Krasus, Rhonin, and Brox are thrown back in time and are able to help the demi-god Cenarius and the dragon Aspects fight the Burning Legion. Once again, in this new timeline, Sargeras' first invasion of Azeroth failed. During the end of the war, Broxigar lept through the portal and using the wooden axe crafted by Malfurion Stormrage killed many demons before catching the attention of Sargeras himself. In a last desperate attempt to buy time for his allies, Broxigar personally attacked the huge titan, wounding him in his leg - an extraordinary feat for anyone as he was said to be invincible before standing back and awaiting destruction. Sargeras crushed Broxigar, however, unlike the orc, Sargeras bore no smile as the portal he was going to use to enter Azeroth through was rapidly closing. Sargeras stepped into the midst of it, and while he was in the middle of the portal, it imploded and he ceased to be.

    >> The avatar of Sargeras is an incarnation of the lord of the Burning Legion believed to be created from part of Sargeras' spirit. The second time that Sargeras entered Azeroth was in the form of an avatar. Aegwynn, the Guardian of Tirisfal at the time, detected Sargeras's presence, hunted his avatar down and defeated it in combat. She "destroyed" the avatar with a single spell, or so she thought — in reality, Sargeras just implanted himself inside her womb, insuring that the next Guardian would contain his demonic essence.

    Many believe that Sargeras's spirit yet endures, somewhere — hungering for revenge against the only world ever to withstand the Burning Legion's might... Some people think the Avatar was the real Sargeras, but Brann Bronzebeard is certain he never set foot on Azeroth.

    In The Last Guardian, Khadgar saw a vision of the battle in the past. It is said that Aegwynn battled Sargeras himself, not an avatar, in a vale in the frozen north. His mere voice could collapse ice cliffs, and when he dropped his huge spear it struck the ground like a meteorite hitting the earth.

    >> When Medivh reached fourteen, his powers as a Guardian manifested themselves throwing him into a coma that lasted for twenty years. During this time, Sargeras tapped into the Guardian's enormous power, and when Medivh at last awoke, the dark titan had nearly taken complete control. In his new body, Sargeras contacted the orcish warlock Gul'dan, leader of a host of orcs on the world of Draenor — a world which had been discovered by his lieutenant, Kil'jaeden, a few generations beforehand. Medivh went to the Black Morass in the remote, southern parts of Azeroth and opened the Dark Portal allowing the orcs permanent access to the planet. Gul'dan's Orcish Horde swarmed through the rift, waging war upon the native humans of the Kingdom of Azeroth.

    Medivh's nature was thoroughly changed after his coma, and his closest friends and relatives noticed something was wrong. Medivh's mother Aegwynn, now banished from the realm for her misdeeds against the Order of Tirisfal, had figured out what Sargeras had done to her, and got into contact with King Llane and his general, Lord Lothar. Lothar felt he had no choice but to destroy the corrupted Medivh in order to prevent the evil Guardian from doing any more damage to Azeroth. Medivh's apprentice, Khadgar, helped Lothar and an orcish emissary, Garona, infiltrate Medivh's dark tower, Karazhan. Despite his enormous power, Medivh was caught off his guard, and was in the end killed by his former friends and comrades in his underground sanctum. The small remaining part of Medivh's human conscience had taken Khadgar into apprenticeship for this very reason, to stop Sargeras.

    Sargeras desired vengeance against the human kingdoms and expected the orcs to travel through the portal and destroy the humans. Although the orcs did enter the portal, and eventually caused a great amount of damage to the human kingdoms, Sargeras ultimately failed in his plans because of Medivh's early death. Eventually, Sargeras wanted to shed the body of Medivh and once again enter his avatar, but he didn't have enough time to do so.

    >> Kil'jaeden, infuriated, knew that the time had come to take matters into his own hands. Recalling the Nathrezim's experiments with undead during the War of the Ancients, and realizing that it was free will that led to the downfall of the orcs (the betrayals of Doomhammer, the Stormreaver and the Laughing Skull clans), he formulated a most sinister plan: Why not create an army of enslaved undead, under the control of a single cunning mind cowed in fear to the Legion?

    Calling in an unpaid vendetta, the Deceiver found Ner’zhul within the Twisting Nether, and, seeking vengeance against the shaman's defiance, tortured the orc for an impossibly long time, destroying his body piece by piece until finally, nothing remained but the shaman's tortured soul. Kil'jaeden offered the remnant of the soul a choice: remain in eternal pain in the eredar torture dimension, or become the ruler of an army of undeath. Ner'zhul, predictably, chose the latter, and was transformed into the Lich King. Recalling Ner'zhul's previous duplicity and Gul'dan's failure, Kil'jaeden took no chances whatsoever. He refused to give the Lich King a body, instead sealing specially forged armor, along with the Lich King's soul, into the Frozen Throne. Just in case Ner'zhul wasn't daunted by immobility, he dispatched the Dreadlords to make sure he stayed on task.


    The Lich King was to succeed where the orcs had failed: His undead servants would wipe out any potential resistance, and raise the unfortunate fallen as undead legions. The Scourge was just that, and wiped out Quel'Thalas and much of Lordaeron to prepare for the Legion's invasion. By the time Archimonde entered Azeroth, the remaining forces of Lordaeron were no match for them.

    However, the Lich King, aware of the eredar's hatred for the immortal elves, betrayed the Legion by breaking the pact he had forged with Kil'jaeden which bound him to the latter's will. In informing Illidan of the Skull of Gul'dan through his pawn Arthas, he facilitated the death of one of the Legion's greatest tacticians, Tichondrius, and dealt the first blow against the Legion that led to the ultimate fall of their forces in the Battle of Mount Hyjal.

    Although Kil'jaeden was infuriated at the failure and death of Archimonde, he knew better than to take reckless vengeance. Aware that the Lich King had grown out of his control, he then went about to acquire a new pawn. He found Illidan, and told him that, despite his part in the Legion's downfall, The Deceiver was willing to offer him a chance at power. Illidan was informed that if he destroyed the Frozen Throne, thus killing the Lich King, that Kil'jaeden would reward him with power beyond his imagination (whether or not Kil'jaeden actually intended to do so is a moot point). He gave Illidan the Orb of Kil'jaeden to aid him in his task.

    Illidan first gained the allegiance of the naga, who helped him first flee from Kalimdor and then later seek out the Eye of Sargeras. With it, they performed an arcane ritual to tear Northrend, the base of the undead Scourge, apart. Thus, the minions of Kil'jaeden came full circle, back to the power of the Dark Titan.

    But, due to interferences from Illidan's brother, Malfurion Stormrage, the Eye was instead destroyed before Illidan managed to destroy The Frozen Throne.
    Having failed Kil'jaeden, Illidan instead went on to rescue Tyrande from the Scourge along with his brother. Aware of Kil'jaeden's capabilities, he fled to Outland to evade capture, during which he gained the loyalty of one more former highborne race, the blood elves. With his new servitors, Illidan eventually moved against the pit lord Magtheridon by destroying the dimensional gates Ner'zhul had opened decades before. The stratagem was meant to keep Kil'jaeden and his minions away from Outland and would have stopped Magtheridon from calling in reinforcements. Without any further demonic aid to strengthen his standing forces, Magtheridon was quick to fall before Illidan and his followers.

    But Kil'jaeden was no fool. Because of Draenor's former importance as the homeworld of the orcs and the refuge of the draenei (and Magtheridon himself an agent of the Legion), Kil'jaeden kept at least half an eye on the torn planet. Quickly uncovering what had happened (or perhaps watching all along), the Deceiver once again appeared in front of Illidan and commanded him to return to the icy continent to finish what he had started (citing that his new servitors showed "some promise"; while Kil'jaeden probably didn't buy Illidan's story, he knew that his best bet in destroying the traitor still lay in Illidan), and told him that if he failed again, he would face his "eternal wrath."

    However, Illidan failed and the Lich King persists, having cheated the Deceiver by merging with Arthas. For now, Kil'jaeden's vengeance is embodied in the mighty fel reaver Doomwalker, who lays siege to the gates of the Black Temple. The Lord of the Legion has made plans elsewhere.

    >> The Lich King is the master and lord of the Scourge, which he rules telepathically from the Frozen Throne atop the Icecrown Glacier.

    Kil'jaeden created the Lich King from the spirit of the orcish shaman Ner'zhul to raise an undead army to conquer Azeroth for the Burning Legion. Initially trapped within the Frozen Throne with Frostmourne, the Lich King eventually betrayed Kil'jaeden and merged with the human Arthas Menethil. With the destruction of Frostmourne and the death of Arthas, Bolvar Fordragon took the powers of the Lich King within himself, imprisoning the master of the Scourge within the Frozen Throne once more.

    Within the Frozen Throne, the Lich King experimented with his psychic powers and enslaved the local indigenous life forms. The plague of undeath that came from the Frozen Throne transformed each of them into his undead servants. Thus, using his psychic and necromantic powers, he was able to conquer much of Northrend. As he devoured more and more souls, he only grew in power as the individual undead under his control gave him "much needed nourishment". Thus, his powers began growing at an exponential rate; a fact that the dreadlords were well aware of and kept a good eye on him.

    Prince Arthas himself fell prey to the Lich King's tremendous power. Believing that it would help him save his people, Arthas took up the cursed runeblade, Frostmourne. Though the sword did grant him great power, the cost was high: Muradin (or so Arthas believed) lay dead, and Arthas began to lose his soul, transformed into the first and greatest of the Lich King's Death Knights. Arthas finally exacted revenge upon Mal'Ganis, removing one of the Lich King's more dangerous jailers and completing the unholy transformation. With his soul cast aside and his sanity shattered, Arthas led the Scourge against his own kingdom — Lordaeron.

    Finally, Archimonde was summoned outside Dalaran, and he immediately gave control of the Scourge to Tichondrius and the Dreadlords. But the Lich King was not done yet. Archimonde may have removed Ner'zhul's control over the undead, but in his eagerness for vengeance against the night elves, he forgot to return the Frozen Throne to Kil'jaeden. Thus, the Lich King remained at large.

    However, Illidan was waiting for him. An intense battle commenced in which Illidan displayed his newfound demonic powers and nearly defeated Arthas. Until, coming in for the finishing blow, he inadvertently left himself open and Arthas quickly took advantage of it, slicing open the demon hunter's chest. Illidan collapsed, grievously wounded. Arthas then turned towards the open doors of Icecrown, leaving Illidan on the ground instead of finishing him. Rather, before he walked away, Arthas warned Illidan to leave Azeroth and never return.

    Ner'zhul and Arthas' spirits fused into a single mighty being, just as the Lich King had always planned. And thus one of the most powerful entities on Azeroth was born.


    After the merger, the Lich King sat dormant for several years while storms raged across Northrend and his minions constructed Icecrown Citadel around the Frozen Throne. While the Lich King dreamt, the various personas in his mind - the death knight Arthas Menethil, the orc shaman Ner'zhul, and Matthias Lehner, the personification of the remnants Arthas' humanity - fought for influence and control over the entity. It is noticeable that if arranged accordingly, Matthias Lehner is an anagram of Arthas Menethil.

    Matthias tried to reason with Arthas, but Arthas killed him by running him through with Frostmourne. Ner'zhul was delighted by this, declaring that he and Arthas were now free to merge into a single glorious being. Arthas rejected this offer, stating that once he had the power of the Lich King, no one would tell him what to do again. He impaled the stunned Ner'zhul with Frostmourne, becoming the dominant personality of the Lich King and ending the dream.

    Champions of the Argent Tournament, led by Tirion Fordring, stormed Icecrown Citadel and defeated the Lich King's mightiest servants. Atop the spire, the Lich King encased Tirion in a block of ice, forcing him to watch helplessly as his champions battled the Lich King and his minions.

    Eventually, the Lich King effortlessly killed all the adventurers with a single devastating attack. The Lich King revealed that he had been waiting for Tirion's assault all along, knowing that he would bring with him Azeroth's greatest heroes, who could then be killed and resurrected as powerful masters of the Scourge. Every obstacle he had laid before them was merely part of his test. Now certain Tirion's champions were "the greatest fighting force this world has ever known", the Lich King began to raise the fallen heroes. Before he could finish, Fordring, calling for a final blessing from the Light, managed to break free and shatter Frostmourne with his own sword, Ashbringer, much to the Lich King's shock. The spirits who had been trapped within Frostmourne, including King Terenas Menethil II, attacked their former jailer by suspending him in the air while simultaneously resurrecting Fordring's champions, who were then able to defeat the Lich King.

    Terenas' spirit held Arthas in his arms as he died, then informed Tirion that the Scourge must always have a master to control them, before vanishing in the wind. Tirion picked up the Lich King's crown and prepared to take on the burden of becoming the new Lich King, when he was stopped by the voice of Bolvar Fordragon. The undead paladin sat upon the Frozen Throne, having been horribly burned by dragonfire and tortured by Arthas. Bolvar said that he no longer had any place in the world of the living, while Tirion still had duties to perform. As his final act of service, Bolvar would take the powers of the Lich King within himself, imprisoning the master of the Scourge once more and keeping the undead legions in check. Tirion reluctantly placed the crown of the Lich King on Bolvar's head. As the ice of the Frozen Throne began to envelop him, Bolvar - now the new Lich King - told Tirion to tell the world that the Lich King is dead, and as his voice changed to one similar of the Lich King, added that Bolvar Fordragon died with him.


    A debate that has arisen among fans is whether the Lich King can be classified as a god. His origins lie with Kil'jaeden, but his power has continued to increase at an exponential rate beyond Kil'jaeden's intentions. Most of the other gods in the Warcraft universe have their origins with the Pantheon. However, most of them have contributed something to the world of Azeroth. Elune gave birth to the night elves (according to their own legends), while the Dragon Aspects guard specific elements of Azeroth depending on their origins in the dragonflights. The Lich King contributed the undead to this world; unlike the contributions of other gods this wasn't a positive change, but it might still elevate the Lich King to the title. Many Blizzard texts (such as the Warcraft III manual) refer to him as the "godlike Lich King".

    The Warcraft Encyclopedia provided by Blizzard classifies a "god" in two ways:

    Gods are immortal.
    There are no hard and fast rules to define what it means to be a god in Warcraft, save that all gods are immortal.

    Gods are the object of worship.
    The demigods of Azeroth wield great power and have occasionally played pivotal roles in the planet's history. Nevertheless, unlike gods, most demigods have never been the objects of worship.


    Although it is true that the Lich King does not age, it is arguable whether or not he is an object of worship. The members of the Cult of the Damned and the mortals who serve him as acolytes (in Reign of Chaos and The Frozen Throne), as well as the unknown number of intelligent undead he controls (in addition to the countless mindless ones) obviously worship him and provide a strong backing for this criterion. The vrykul revere him as a death god and it is speculated that the tuskarr have identified him with their death-god, Karkut. King Ymiron refers to offering player's hearts as gifts to the death god, as well.

    From the Warcraft 3 manual :
    Kel’Thuzad was one of the greatest Archmagi of Dalaran. He was one of the members of the Kirin Tor and a dear friend of the Archmage Antonidas. However, his lust to delve into the dark arts of necromancy made him an outcast amongst his fellow wizards. Heeding the call of the god-like Lich King, Kel’Thuzad traveled to Northrend and offered his soul to Ner’zhul. The Lich King commanded the dark wizard to create a cult that would facilitate the creation of a grand, undead army. Kel’Thuzad used his powers and vast fortune to found the Cult of the Damned – the sinister group that would bring Ner’zhul’s dark will to fruition...

    >> In Patch 6.2, Gul'dan has resurrected Mannoroth as an undead, making him the penultimate boss of the Hellfire Citadel raid.
    Last edited by Kaos Sverige; 2016-08-22 at 11:17 AM.

  15. #195
    The Lightbringer steelballfc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    Does this guy have another account where he makes posts about Illidan being the strongest character ever? Because I have a hard time believing there are 2 different posters that are equally delusional about their chosen character.
    they are brothers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal123 View Post
    the legion would take over their mindless brains and use them for their own advantage.
    it's weird to see you are still here arguing with him

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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    Stop feeding the stupid
    you were the 2nd comment in this thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    in terms of the lore, nobody living knows that bolvar became the lich king and therefore jailer of the damned, only tirion knew and he is dead, so he took the secret to his grave.
    all the important char - including the player- know that, read warcrimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    I just love the idea of "I want to murder people in moderation".
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    the only "positive" in your case is that, unlike Blizzard's writers, you aren't paid for that.

  16. #196
    Deleted
    This entire thread is somewhat pointless. It started with a question about "what if LK showed up at broken shore to help us" but quickly turned into * nahah This one can beat that one*.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by xzeve View Post
    This entire thread is somewhat pointless. It started with a question about "what if LK showed up at broken shore to help us" but quickly turned into * nahah This one can beat that one*.
    If only it could have started with such an innocent question. Unfortunately, it started with a "LOL, LK could have solo'd everything" (which is typical of Bulldog's posts), so of course, it'd eventually turn into a "nope, the demons can destroy him" (or so I believe, haven't read the entire thread yet).
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang
    Donnons le sang de guillotine
    Pour guerir la secheresse de la guillotine
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang.

  18. #198
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    By that logic resurrection creates undead too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal123 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    This is still different. They physically brought Mannoroth back to life as well. Like fully healed him and then some with fel magic. As far as I know, it's not possible for that to happen to undead. There's a reason the forsaken look like rotting corpses instead of normal humans. They cannot be revived fully. They're just a corpse. Mannorth was not just a corpse. Only temporarily was one while he was regenerating a new body in the Twisting Nether.
    WTF? Am I like the only one who saw Mannoroth? He was a skeleton. Even after he was empowered, his body was still a busted corpse. It wasn't a full resurrection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    It looked like some Fel fuckery regeneration and not undeath. Skeletal warriors of the Scourge do not regrow their flesh from nothing from what I recall. If anything, they do just the opposite, like the Black Knight. Most stay the way they were resurrected for all eternity. At the end he was just his normal self with nothing hinting to him being undead. Like, I dunno, Wolverine can regenerate from a drop of his blood. Does not make him undead. The difference is that demons regenerate from less, just their soul, but in the Nether. In this case he just had help from Warlocks to make it possible on a mortal plane (and possibly faster). Then again Blizzard did call him an undead even though him regrowing his flesh out of thin air matches nothing of the other undead we see anywhere else in WoW, so it's kinda pointless discussion. Just to point out yet another inconsistency on Blizzard's part.
    He was not his normal self at the end. His body was still a busted corpse. Undead are healed by dark magic; whether or not this regenerates the corpse is uncertain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    It just seems like something so different to me and would... kinda go against their previous lore I'm sure. I figured it would be something like how the first Death Knights were made except those were mortal beings without an eternal soul so they were truly dead (they also weren't put back into their own body).
    Mortals have eternal souls. They just don't regenerate a new body.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    It would make much much more sense to me to just say that Mannoroth was resurrected like a priest or paladin would do it except he was only bones at the start because that was what was left of his body. Still wouldn't make him undead if he was being kept alive forcibly. Like... life support. Gul'dan only left after Mannoroth was at super strength so I'm assuming he was needed to keep Mannoroth's soul inside of those bones which were not alive.
    Except he wasn't resurrected. His body was just an animated corpse. It wasn't restored to full living order. You're arguing yourself in circle... You say he's resurrected, but he's just a soul inside bones that aren't alive... That is undead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    No it isn't the same at all. The soul doesn't animate anything with an undead. It isn't even clear where the soul goes when a person is rezzed into undeath. Arthas clearly kept plenty of souls inside of Frostmourne which would indicate that it isn't required to even be in the body any longer. You can say "Oh well those are just the mindless ones" but that isn't entirely true either as we see Darian's soul call out to his father's and he doesn't temporarily die again while this is happening. It's fully there and Darian even makes an exclamation about it while his soul is taking to his father's. How do we know it's a soul and not a vision? Because the Lich King eats it with Frostmourne and you get it back when you beat him with Shadowmourne later. It's why Darian gives you his mount.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    The souls of the undead (Forsaken, PC death knights, ghouls, etc.) are imperfectly attached to their bodies; the dark magic that sustains them is a buffer that prevents their souls from properly joining with their bodies. This is why undead feel only faint sensations of pain or discomfort from most physical stimuli, and why the Light is so painful to their existence. The primary exception to this rule are liches, as liches bind their souls to a phylactery and then use the phylactery to generate a physical form; this process is why lich bodies look nothing like their mortal bodies, and also why you have to destroy a lich’s phylactery to truly kill them. (Source)
    The LK can release souls from Frostmourne at will. Not all undead are animated by souls. Some are just magical corpse puppets.
    The Necrolytes have close ties to the dark forces of Hell, and in consequence study the forbidden arts of the dead. They have gained the ability to bind the bodies of the dead to this domain, creating armies of soulless creatures. With no minds to speak of, they will disdain the use of weapons, seeking to rend the flesh of those they are directed to attack with their bare boned hands.
    --Warcraft 1 manual

    These unfortunate warriors gave their lives in battle only to be brought back into soulless servitude by arcane Orc magiks to fight for the Horde. Rising up from the battlefield, the Undead tirelessly hack and slash at their terrified enemies. These skeletal horrors retain none of the personality or emotions that permeated their living bodies and thus will do their master's bidding until they are destroyed.
    [...]
    This dark magik is the final legacy of the Orc Necrolytes who were destroyed shortly after the First War. The Death Knight can animate corpses of the newly dead and then command these monstrosities to attack their enemies.

    --Warcraft 2 manual


    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    For more examples: Thaddius. Thaddius was a being constructed with the flesh of women and children and they still all had their souls locked away inside of the creature itself. They were a separate entity entirely as they called out for us to kill the monstrosity numerous times. They physically scream at you to save them. How can you say that thing is a soul animating anything? Necromancy is clearly just dark magic infusing the body. Sometimes souls can be used which is how I assume people like Darian and Syvlanas kept their memories and whatnot after being dead, but I would say this is a rarity and also I would say that the soul itself no longer has any control. It's merely there to facilitate former memories and mannerisms but even those can be broken with magic. Darian Mograine once plunged the Ashbringer into himself in order to free his father from undeath and then was immediately resurrected by Kel'Thuzad where he was asked who he loved to which he replied "Nobody" after merely seconds ago exclaiming that he loved his father. His soul was not in control.
    Abominations are something else. It's basically a flesh golem.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    WTF? Am I like the only one who saw Mannoroth? He was a skeleton. Even after he was empowered, his body was still a busted corpse. It wasn't a full resurrection.
    So? "Putting soul into corpse is different than raising undead how?" is a general statement, that didn't even mention Mannoroth. Resurrection fits what I was replying to just fine. Unless you're going to argue that resurrection doesn't restore the soul to a body.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    He was not his normal self at the end. His body was still a busted corpse. Undead are healed by dark magic; whether or not this regenerates the corpse is uncertain.
    We've seen undead that heal themselves up or get empowered by dark magic before. Not a single case of regeneration that I can think of.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  20. #200
    The Lightbringer steelballfc's Avatar
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    @Aquamonkey is on Rampage mode
    beware mortals
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    I just love the idea of "I want to murder people in moderation".
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    the only "positive" in your case is that, unlike Blizzard's writers, you aren't paid for that.

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