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  1. #41
    Herald of the Titans Dristereau's Avatar
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    I still think there's thing to think of, primarily to do with Artifact's and Honor Talents.

    Let's face it, it still won't be balanced. Someone with Max Artifact and all Honor Talents will probably smash someone without such things to pieces. Prestiging in PVP will be punishable to stop you from doing Arena and Rated BGs unless they automatically unlock in Arena/Rated BGs because who would take someone without Honor Talents into a Rated situation unless carrying?
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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post



    See, your emotions dont mean much when the numbers make sense.
    the numbers makes for nobody sense? hitting like a truck and later hitting like a wet noodle? do you know how blizzard "balance" things? They take the so called "Nerfhammer"

    btw alts won't be that popular anyways in legion at the start of it, you will be behind in artifact power. afaik those still matter in pvp.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    the numbers makes for nobody sense? hitting like a truck and later hitting like a wet noodle? do you know how blizzard "balance" things? They take the so called "Nerfhammer"
    So youre assuming the old way of doing things will be applied to a new system of doing things.. sounds like fear is getting the best of you

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    btw alts won't be that popular anyways in legion at the start of it, you will be behindin artifact power. afaik those still mater in pvp.
    Really irrelevant to the discussion but youre right.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Luminoth4 View Post
    I still think there's thing to think of, primarily to do with Artifact's and Honor Talents.

    Let's face it, it still won't be balanced. Someone with Max Artifact and all Honor Talents will probably smash someone without such things to pieces. Prestiging in PVP will be punishable to stop you from doing Arena and Rated BGs unless they automatically unlock in Arena/Rated BGs because who would take someone without Honor Talents into a Rated situation unless carrying?
    I bet prestige is only made for normal bgs and not rated pvp activities, wouldn't bother with it too much.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    I bet prestige is only made for normal bgs and not rated pvp activities, wouldn't bother with it too much.
    This is correct.

    - - - Updated - - -

    At the end of the day, the trade off is for more talent choices vs stat choices.

    Which do you guys like more? Being able to shift your gameplay to cater to your current needs with talents, or to swap gear because your other set stacks versatility instead of mastery?
    Last edited by Daymanmb; 2016-08-20 at 08:10 PM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Because it's PvP (player versus player) activity.

    I want them to matter slightly, like they do in legion (mostly). And no, i do not want the game to be changed to symmetrical balance, where do you get this from? For the sake of consistency and "skill-based" gameplay, i want consistent and "skill-based" gameplay. Not steaming pile of a mess that it used to be, like "your MS deals 10% of enemy health at beginning, and will linearly scale to do 40% of enemy health to the end of "gearing experience".

    If you really want to spin the "game is about getting gear" argument - game is not about "getting gear", it's about killing dragons, where PvP is just a offside thing.
    Well this is somewhat true, and also consistent with my stance that PVE and PVP should have the same mechanics all around. They should have stayed in their old philosophy of "if it's too powerful in PVP it's also too powerful in PVE" and vice-versa. I was arguing a solid decade ago for CC mechanics (the only difference between PVE and PVP for a long time) to be consolidated into one rule set, with DRs in PVE requiring coordinated CC rotations for PVE encounters.

    I've always spent most of my time in PVP in this game (over 500,000 HKs), but I also enjoy PVE, but exponentially more so if there are actual rewards for doing it. Recently the only reward for PVE is being able to do the same PVE faster: unusable in PVP, and inconsequential in grinding and solo/small group PVE due to its ease. All of my hardcore PVE has been to get gear to PVP with, and it's always increased my overall enjoyment of the game and pushed me into playing more aspects of the game.

    Finally, I don't see why you want gear homogenized but not classes? Surely rerolling to the most powerful class or spec is no more "skillful" than gearing up your character?

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    So youre assuming the old way of doing things will be applied to a new system of doing things.. sounds like fear is getting the best of you



    Really irrelevant to the discussion but youre right.
    yeah, i am indeed afraid, this new system will be pretty boring considering this is a RPG and another carrot or incentive to gear your character was just removed, while there is zero reasion for this - it worked for over 10 years now, why fix what isn't broken? I consider what was done in WoD good enough and it was easy enough to get good pvp gear (the best) easy enough with your main AND alts.

    Secondly you mentioned alts first and that you have a problem getting one shot by geared players.

    Why is that bad? Are you playing on a PvE server? Because i do not care about getting 1 shot on a twink in the open world by a max level character either. Really who cares about deaths when there is no real punishment for it? I would only agree with this slightly, if wow got a HC mode like diablo, but there is noone!

  8. #48
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solarfallz View Post
    Well this is somewhat true, and also consistent with my stance that PVE and PVP should have the same mechanics all around.
    Stop here. They shouldn't. They are fucking different. And people like them because they are different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solarfallz View Post
    They should have stayed in their old philosophy of "if it's too powerful in PVP it's also too powerful in PVE" and vice-versa. I was arguing a solid decade ago for CC mechanics (the only difference between PVE and PVP for a long time) to be consolidated into one rule set, with DRs in PVE requiring coordinated CC rotations for PVE encounters.
    CC "rotations" are boring. Since the release of DKs the literally worst, hair-pulling thing that happened to me is deceases transferring to poly'd target. CC "rotations" are gone and i'm happy about it (coming from one of zombie chow kiters).
    Quote Originally Posted by solarfallz View Post
    I've always spent most of my time in PVP in this game (over 500,000 HKs), but I also enjoy PVE, but exponentially more so if there are actual rewards for doing it. Recently the only reward for PVE is being able to do the same PVE faster: unusable in PVP, and inconsequential in grinding and solo/small group PVE due to its ease. All of my hardcore PVE has been to get gear to PVP with, and it's always increased my overall enjoyment of the game and pushed me into playing more aspects of the game.
    I get what your argument comes from, you should be rewarded for an activity. You used to get gear from PvP, and gear from PvE. Then you got PvP gear from PvP and PvE gear from PvE. Now it's back to gear from PvP and gear from PvE. Gear is not an end goal. Killing the dragon is an end goal fpr PvE. Being the best is an end goal for PvP.

    I just don't get how gear should be a reward for PvP - a better player gets better gear, so the skill difference between players gets irrelevant. Thanks to gear difference, more skilled players will actually lose to more geared player (and getting PvP gear wasn't that hard, it was somewhat time consuming, but not hard). Now the gear almost doesn't matter, PvP is stripped down to its core - the most skilled player will win. There are, off course, things inherent to games with asymmetric balance (like melee vs ranged debate, tanks in pvp, strength of healers, etc) but thanks to pvp templates blizzard can fine-tune this crap to reduce the "effectiveness" of "fotm rerollers"
    I understand tho that you had fun by blowing up fools while having better gear, you can still do that in low level locations, literally the same crap. Not trying to shame or something, different people like different things, but this change hardly does anything for you - you still can get items from PvE and use them in PvP. Or you can't be arsed with PvE - you just PvP and get your gear.

    Because gear already was "homogenized". You never built haste on a fire PvP mage. You never built crit on an ele shaman, etc. With templates it's easier to balance (and people were crying for templates, aka "separate PvP from PvE plox" for ages). There will be no (read: almost none) reason to reroll to "the most powerful class or spec", because skill matters, and it's easier to tune PvP balance with templates (affli warlocks are too tanky? Cut their versatility stat). If monks are fotm, you buy your level boost, play a bit, you are still shit, you could spend this time on your class and get better at it.

    TL;DR: gear still matters. You still get gear the same way (plus multiple other ways), but the gear difference is way lower now, so crap like "i used to barely scratch people, now i kill them in two pyros" doesn't exist, gameplay doesn't change much from getting gear.
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2016-08-20 at 09:17 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    yeah, i am indeed afraid, this new system will be pretty boring considering this is a RPG and another carrot or incentive to gear your character was just removed, while there is zero reasion for this
    Yeh youre argument has no real merit. You deal in extremes. Gear still matters whether or not your think it does.
    I never mentioned alts once.
    I can wholly say the incentive to raid with my friends exists again, for it will be the best avenue for increasing your item level for PvP.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    it worked for over 10 years now, why fix what isn't broken?
    Theyve contantly evolved how to gear for PvP since battlegrounds were implemented in Vanilla because, guess what, it wasnt really working..
    To say its been good for 10 years is disingenuous and only goes to show how steadfast you are in your views in the face of contradicting information.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Stop here. They shouldn't. They are fucking different. And people like them because they are different.
    What? This makes no sense. It's one game. You're playing the same character. Using the same abilities. You're just targetting a player character instead of a non-player character. The original dev team explicitly adhered to this philosophy as well.

  11. #51
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solarfallz View Post
    What? This makes no sense. It's one game. You're playing the same character. Using the same abilities. You're just targetting a player character instead of a non-player character. The original dev team explicitly adhered to this philosophy as well.
    Except, like, players having no aggro, or millions of HP, or "you die when you aggro those" and other "PvE stuff". And, well, there are no 25v1 PvP
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Except, like, players having no aggro, or millions of HP, or "you die when you aggro those" and other "PvE stuff". And, well, there are no 25v1 PvP
    So the only real difference is that players don't have threat? They do, to be honest, considering threat is basically an AI mechanic meant to imitate players by attacking the most threatening target. Healers and squishy classes tend to cause the highest threat in PVP. HP difference is not a distinction, some classes have more HP than others, and NPCs are essentially just classes that we don't have access to (or they have sick gear!). There IS 25v1 PVP. Wander into an AV zerg and bingo bango bongo, 25v1 PVP. Most boss encounters have more than 1 NPC anyway.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgodeus View Post
    All of this has been answered by Blizzard in Blue posts. But I will try to address them for you.

    All set bonuses and trinket procs are disabled in PvP.
    Socket bonuses are meaningless in PvP.
    Enchants are disabled in PvP.

    In regards to Artifacts, traits that do not buff any type of "enhancement stat" such as haste, crit etc, whether it be an overall increase or one that affects one spell/ability, are in effect. The ones that do affect those stats are disabled in PvP.
    that's what I want to know, any blue link please? I like to know how much artifact weapon/powers will make a difference in pvp, since that's THE gear that will keep its power in pvp

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by ns66 View Post
    that's what I want to know, any blue link please? I like to know how much artifact weapon/powers will make a difference in pvp, since that's THE gear that will keep its power in pvp
    I do not have any blue links. I am going by what is current on Beta. Took me awhile to figure out how the artifact weapons were working in PvP, but after testing and talking to others that were PvPing with me, we figured out how they are being handled. That is not to say things are 100% set in stone and will not change. I do know Blizzard had previously discussed deactivating relics in PvP (you have 3 relic slots that enhance your weapon).

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgodeus View Post
    I do not have any blue links. I am going by what is current on Beta. Took me awhile to figure out how the artifact weapons were working in PvP, but after testing and talking to others that were PvPing with me, we figured out how they are being handled. That is not to say things are 100% set in stone and will not change. I do know Blizzard had previously discussed deactivating relics in PvP (you have 3 relic slots that enhance your weapon).
    ok how about this trait example
    Aegwynn's Wrath
    Rank 1/3 Artifact Trait
    Requires Mage (Arcane)
    Requires Aluneth, Greatstaff of the Magna
    Increases critical strike chance by 1%.

    so by your testing in beta it would be deactivated in pvp? thanks

    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=187321/aegwynns-wrath

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by ns66 View Post
    ok how about this trait example
    Aegwynn's Wrath
    Rank 1/3 Artifact Trait
    Requires Mage (Arcane)
    Requires Aluneth, Greatstaff of the Magna
    Increases critical strike chance by 1%.

    so by your testing in beta it would be deactivated in pvp? thanks

    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=187321/aegwynns-wrath
    Correct. They want everyones' "Enhancement" stats to be the same it seems. Also let's say you have a trait that increases the crit chance of 1 spell. That is also deactivated. The actual traits themselves are greyed out in PvP.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgodeus View Post
    Correct. They want everyones' "Enhancement" stats to be the same it seems. Also let's say you have a trait that increases the crit chance of 1 spell. That is also deactivated. The actual traits themselves are greyed out in PvP.

    so trait like this dmg increase % will remain active? thanks:

    Aegwynn's Fury
    Rank 3/3 Artifact Trait
    Requires Mage (Arcane)
    Requires Aluneth, Greatstaff of the Magna
    Increases damage dealt by Arcane Missiles by 6%.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by DenniZ View Post
    Since the PvP templates are now active it appaerently does not matter anymore what stats are on your gear. Not the primairy stats or the secondary stats.
    Its all about the average item level now.

    This means you might as well equip an agility piece as a caster now if it has an higher item level then your current trinket. Higher item level = beter stat return according to the template and thus you end up more powerfull.

    This totally demolishes another aspect of the game imo. I used to love going for a haste build or a mastery build as an Affliction warlock, or getting to 30% crit as a Fury warrior after that going for mastery. All that is gone. You get a preplanned set of stats according to the template no matter what gear you got on and what stats are on it. It only can be improved by improving ilvl. Sort of like the minimum ilvl needed for dungeons back in Cataclysm.

    I guess it was needed for the sake of "balance" but come on I'm sure this can be achieved in other ways.

    Anybody else feel like this is a major step backward?
    For those that remember in Wrath, they should bring back reforging to PvP. They should show us "here are all the stats levels we have given you. If you would like to adjust them around you may in this context, but you only get this much to play with". That way people who want to see more crits over faster atk/casts or more survivability can, and those who would like to be more durable also can.

    Since I started wow in early TBC I've always felt there needed to be a lot more balance in pvp and this is certainly a way to get it, but we are still beholden to what blizzard deems as fair. For example they took away afflictions versatility stats which make them a lot more squishy in pvp now. I should be able to decide if I want that back in exchange for a dps loss or not instead of relying on blizz to determine that I shouldn't be allowed to have it, where as a demo lock can be even tankier because they still have all their versa plus soul link.

  19. #59
    Deleted
    yup yup yup

  20. #60
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ns66 View Post
    so trait like this dmg increase % will remain active? thanks:

    Aegwynn's Fury
    Rank 3/3 Artifact Trait
    Requires Mage (Arcane)
    Requires Aluneth, Greatstaff of the Magna
    Increases damage dealt by Arcane Missiles by 6%.
    Yes, that one would be active in PvP.

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