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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    as it was meant to be in first place only players broke difficulty in half by designing addon working around it.

    and thus devs have choice - either design even harder encounters or break some addons which became to big help.

    - - - Updated - - -



    and he is not wrong about it - the moment that addon gives unfair advantage it should be disabled/broken as its not the way devs designed this game.

    i will give another example - handynotes - it broken whole draenor treasure hunting sense since you had them on your map sicne day 1 - it wasnt what they designed it to be. instead spending dozens of hours looking for treasure people were done in couple runing from point A to point B without looking for them at all.
    Yet he said they had no intention of breaking such addons out in the world.
    If you were to remove any outdoor co-ordinate mechanism, then it would be descriptions or screenshots.
    So do you then stop players taking screenshots next.
    There is content where it isn't an issue.
    There is content where it is.
    Hence the selective approach, and it appears interestingly enough to be the selective part which prevented it getting in earlier.
    Sounds simple enough in theory, but perhaps there is more than there appears.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrExcelion View Post
    Random side note: does breaking UnitPosition() help with server performance at all? I guess people don't know what goes on behind the scenes at all
    We don't know how much is server-side, as the game would already be communicating that all the time.
    We can see a player, mob, battle pet etc on our screen in the place it should be without any such addon.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Your forgot to include the part where we blame casuals for everything because blizzard is catering to casuals when casuals got jack squat for new content the entire expansion, like new dungeons and scenarios.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  2. #122
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nahela View Post
    This just shows ignorance of the issue. Fights like Kromog/Kormrok exist because addon functionality allows it and vice versa. I can tell you though that if you put a Kromog/Kormrok style mechanic in Legion with zero way for addons to interact with them, you'd be able to count on your hands the number of guilds that would ever kill it on Mythic. Of course, pretty much no one's arguing that mechanics and addon functionality like that should go.

    Range Radar exists because the game has historically had no concrete way to relay precise visual information about short distances to the player.

    People saying "addons have made encounters too easy" either aren't raiding at the top level or simply don't understand the relationship between addons and encounter design. Until Blizzard starts consistently making the visual language of boss encounters clearer, this change is going to result in easier bosses, not harder.

    EDIT: I don't understand the argument about Mark of the Legion at all though. That mechanic is trivial in terms of organization to begin with. The only organization needed is already built into the game's default functionality.
    kormok and kromog runes/soak positions are totaly doable without addons.

  3. #123
    I mean it's doable, but it's way fucking harder. That kind of mechanic can't even be seen until you get into combat, so you'd have to do something obnoxious like wipe a bunch of times just to count the number of runes, take screenshots to estimate which positions are important to soak, figure out how either assign people a specific rune with minimal visual reference to where it is prior to appearing, or develop a strategy where people free for all it but don't miss key soaks in the middle of the room. And back in early progression small errors or dps inefficiencies would lead to wipes.

    So I think the point is that most people aren't necessarily against the removal of those types of addons. It's just a question of whether fight design will improve to accommodate it. Straining to judge distances by eye on debuffs or splash damage with no visual indicator is no fun. Reacting to mechanics like runes or wrought chaos in like 3 seconds with no easy way to see it is no fun. And I don't think "well Paragon was able to do it" is a good example of the fact that you can do it without. I'd wager they all downloaded the addon for their 2nd kill. It's just WAY harder to do it without.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post


    Paragon did it by having preassigned locations for raiders. Obviously this is a bit more complicated than just using the radar, but the mechanic absolutely could be handled without a radar.

    OT: I'm a bit upset they're doing this in 7.1, not 7.0.3.


    It looked like they used a weakaura to tell them what their number was. While its not a radar its still telling them where to go.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Each time its updated it's a download. I'm not saying they aren't important addons but your metric is waaaaaaaay off.
    Even if it's half of that, even if it's 2.5 million people who downloaded it is bad enough.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by cyrisela View Post
    kormok and kromog runes/soak positions are totaly doable without addons.
    Doable? Sure. For the appropriate percentage of the populace at that level of raiding? No. You and I may be able to do it, but those mechanics would never exist without addons where they are now. That level of organizational challenge was made to combat addons making loose positioning trivial. So on and so forth.

    Could you do Chromaggus without Decursive? Sure, but it would have been miserable and the boss was exclusively designed as an escalation in response to those type of addons. Same situation.

  7. #127
    I'm surprised this wasn't done sooner to be fair. AVR Encounters was back in ICC got culled pretty damn quick so it comes at no surprise that they'd want to do the same to the functionality of addons such as ERT.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    It's not addons problem, it's design problem. Ion said that he doesn't consider mechanics like wrought chaos difficult, which is bullshit. Also, spreading and, to some extent, positioning would become hell.


    He is right wrought chaos is NOT a difficult mechanic

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    It looked like they used a weakaura to tell them what their number was. While its not a radar its still telling them where to go.
    Right, but that type of WA would be allowable with the changes while the WA commonly used would not. If I were to wager a guess, the way Paragon handled the mechanic is the way Blizzard intended the encounter to be done.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Kraineth View Post
    Sorry friendo, but plenty of competitive raiders will agree that radar addons and addons that can tell you exactly where to go were getting out of hand.

    People were already literally making similar addons for legion bosses.
    It didn't trivialize any fights, so that's getting out of hand? There was a bad mechanic that it simplified. Clearly after ERT and DBM added radars for it, everyone killed Archimonde right? Oh wait. No that happened at 740 when people started skipping basically all of P1 and pushing to P3 before mechanics started overlapping. Was there a big burst in top 100 kills after it was released? Nope not there either. Simplifying a mechanic that wasn't halting progression, especially when we already had two viable strategies as of world 5 (that Chinese guild was live streaming their circle strat down at sub 10% wipes, and Paragon's video showed another viable strat as well), wasn't going to trivialize the fight.

    If you honestly think these things are a problem, you're not really a competitive raider. Did Paragon call Method cheaters? I bet those 203 extra wipes were all due to P2 because that mechanic is the whole fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoobistTV-Metro View Post
    Source: http://www.mmo-champion.com/

    Anywayyyy

    I completely agree with this decision and think it is a major step back towards creating more difficult encounters.
    You should perhaps actually complete content while it's relevant before commenting on the difficulty.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrExcelion View Post
    Random side note: does breaking UnitPosition() help with server performance at all? I guess people don't know what goes on behind the scenes at all but just thought I'd inquire
    No, your client still has to know this information to draw the players.

    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Right, but that type of WA would be allowable with the changes while the WA commonly used would not. If I were to wager a guess, the way Paragon handled the mechanic is the way Blizzard intended the encounter to be done.
    You could still make a WA that shows you the line that's going to hit you (and any others) using triangulation. You don't even need actual coordinates because the angle of the plane isn't important, just whether the lines are on top of you. You have your own point of reference which tells you where all the lines are relative to you. If you synchronize with 2 other clients via addon communication you can reimplement UnitPosition() easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naibil View Post
    I'm surprised this wasn't done sooner to be fair. AVR Encounters was back in ICC got culled pretty damn quick so it comes at no surprise that they'd want to do the same to the functionality of addons such as ERT.
    Stop comparing the two.

    This is AVR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fimaiHFp3aM
    This is a radar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx6ipbVOWvY&t=3m35s

    Notice the radar is showing you what's effectively invisible in-game (in both WC and tethers). When Blizzard broke AVR, they gave us markers AND they stopped making AoE ground effects that were not well defined, which were the reasons people were using AVR primarily (but as you can see you can do much more with it if you want, including dynamically updating the entire floor for different phases).

    If they're going to avoid making shitty mechanics like WC, which is the only reason people use a radar, then it doesn't matter, but if they do that, there's no reason to break the addon since they aren't used for anything else because they don't actually make a difference anywhere else....

    Also, AVR and these radars can both be implemented in 7.1. If Blizzard really wants it to be impossible to do either of these things, they would have to break quite a few addons.
    Last edited by BiggestNoob; 2016-08-22 at 07:34 AM.

  11. #131
    Poor change and quite frankly I don't see the point.
    Removing addons that help with positioning/location like Kormrok (hands) and Archimonde (wroughts) is just unnecessarily greaving for mid-low tier guilds. Not to mention is going to put melee into an even bigger disadvantage they are now.

    High tier guilds will mostly be uneffected and use MSpaint/maps on websites and study out positioning before the encounter even starts. Not to mention have a large choice in melee/range ratio (I would take max 2-4 melee with this on Archimonde 100% wroughts mythic progression). I personally dislike having to go back to this but if this is the direction we are taking then I have to bring out my drawing skills again.

    These addons were just quality of life changes really, the only thing Blizzard is doing by this is more prepartion/study before the encounter.
    Basically more work for raid leaders, yay us.
    Last edited by Celestraza; 2016-08-22 at 07:31 AM.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Celestraza View Post
    Removing addons that help with positioning/location like Kormrok (hands) and Archimonde (wroughts) is just unnecessarily greaving for mid-low tier guilds. Not to mention is going to put melee into an even bigger disadvantage they are now.
    which is a good thing as they will be doing fight with the same difficulty as high tier raid guilds - which diffulcty was intended by devs - unless they are not good enough and they will have to admit it that it was addons that carried them through it all those years. it will be very healthy in long run for community

    and if it will be puting melee into even bigger disadvantage - well maybe then devs have to rethink their encounters design from scratch - which will be healthy for whole raiding playerbase

  13. #133
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nahela View Post
    if you put a Kromog/Kormrok style mechanic in Legion with zero way for addons to interact with them, you'd be able to count on your hands the number of guilds that would ever kill it on Mythic.
    There are such fights. The Nighthold for example has a boss near a water platform that spawns pools of that sort. I guess they are nasty in mythic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I think there is at least one other boss with a mechanic of that sort.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    which is a good thing as they will be doing fight with the same difficulty as high tier raid guilds - which diffulcty was intended by devs - unless they are not good enough and they will have to admit it that it was addons that carried them through it all those years. it will be very healthy in long run for community
    The gap and participation in Mythic raids is already too big tbh.
    Roughly 400 guilds out of 10000 mythic guilds managed to kill Archimonde before he was nerfed (before december).
    This 4% gap increasing even further by removing QoL addons (which high-end guilds will by-pas anyway through other addons like more complicated WA's or tools) is not a good change.

    All this does is force average-low tier guilds to invest a lot more time in research and prepartion in finding more complicated tools/addons. In other words, raidleaders (like me) need to put in a lot more extra precious time to organise and coordinate my raid for encounters such as Kormrok and Archimonde. We will never arrive at a point where free-for-alling mechanics during progression is viable.

    This change clearly shows that whoever thought of it has no clue on mythic raiding.
    I am slowly but surely getting worried about all these changes (camera zoom and now addons) making the game "harder".
    All it does is make the game more obnoxious and annoying. The current devs seem to be out of touch entirely and seem beyond incompetent.
    Last edited by Celestraza; 2016-08-22 at 07:53 AM.

  15. #135
    idk numbered wrought is easier to do than radar, its just less efficient because you have a lot more movement but I fail to see how you have to do more research to get a strat for something like that.
    Literally the first thing I thought of when I read in the dungeon journal how wrought chaos will work in mythic I thought of some sort of people lined up in 2lines, ordered by a weakaura and i'm only raiding 3days/week, the numbered strat was the most logical thing someone would come up with and most likely how blizzard was intending it.
    Radar can have more failures as (and everyone who did the boss knows you have people that aren't able to move on their own line) you may shift your line into other people, while with the numbered assignement everyone gets their assigned spot and can't hit anyone else from there, simple as that just not most efficient.
    And guess what, you won't need that efficiency for your world 300 kill because you're overgearing already anyway.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Reloe View Post
    idk numbered wrought is easier to do than radar, its just less efficient because you have a lot more movement but I fail to see how you have to do more research to get a strat for something like that.
    Literally the first thing I thought of when I read in the dungeon journal how wrought chaos will work in mythic I thought of some sort of people lined up in 2lines, ordered by a weakaura and i'm only raiding 3days/week, the numbered strat was the most logical thing someone would come up with and most likely how blizzard was intending it.
    Radar can have more failures as (and everyone who did the boss knows you have people that aren't able to move on their own line) you may shift your line into other people, while with the numbered assignement everyone gets their assigned spot and can't hit anyone else from there, simple as that just not most efficient.
    And guess what, you won't need that efficiency for your world 300 kill because you're overgearing already anyway.
    Well there are obvious reasons why the Paragon method is inferior to the addon but that is not the point I am trying to make (since both work fine).

    The issue I have with this is that the addon is plug and play. Install it and you can min/max your damage, do the mechanic properly (even if all goes wrong due to felseekers it is so easy to find a safe spot with radar) and raid leaders can focus their attention to other things. The Paragon method requires additional preparation, study and planning before the encounter.

    Same with soaking Kormrok pools. The addon assigns people to specific spots in-game. Without the addon I need to make a drawing/paint roughly where people should stand/soak and either have them memorize it or use smoke bombs or markers. And even adjust this everytime I have a new player in the group.

    I view it merely as quality of life stuff, in my opinion the encounter does not get harder/easier with these addons and removing them just gives raid leaders more hassle with handeling assignments every raid.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Celestraza View Post
    The gap and participation in Mythic raids is already too big tbh.
    Roughly 400 guilds out of 10000 mythic guilds managed to kill Archimonde before he was nerfed (before december).
    This 4% gap increasing even further by removing QoL addons (which high-end guilds will by-pas anyway through other addons like more complicated WA's or tools) is not a good change.

    All this does is force average-low tier guilds to invest a lot more time in research and prepartion in finding more complicated tools/addons. In other words, raidleaders (like me) need to put in a lot more extra precious time to organise and coordinate my raid for encounters such as Kormrok and Archimonde. We will never arrive at a point where free-for-alling mechanics during progression is viable.

    This change clearly shows that whoever thought of it has no clue on mythic raiding.
    I am slowly but surely getting worried about all these changes (camera zoom and now addons) making the game "harder".
    All it does is make the game more obnoxious and annoying. The current devs seem to be out of touch entirely and seem beyond incompetent.
    or maybe its time to realise that maybe you are not mythic raid material if you depend so much on addons and refuse to put in effort equal to the difficulty of content - its not a shame to admit that you are hc raider who just dablle in mythic instead cuting edge material if that cuting edge is obtained via 15 addons and +20 itlv on gear

    this is what is fundamentaly wrong with the game atm - that the same people who depend on 20 addons to raid then make fun of lfr/normal raiders who usually dont use any addons only rely on basic ui. for me its very deep design flaw - either incorporate those addons into the game and give it as raid tool to everyone or ban them as they give unfair advantage.

    i really dunno why the hell blizzard hasnt implemented their version of dbm/big wings and few others ages ago with how fundamental change they make to raiding
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2016-08-22 at 10:49 AM.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Celestraza View Post
    Well there are obvious reasons why the Paragon method is inferior to the addon but that is not the point I am trying to make (since both work fine).

    The issue I have with this is that the addon is plug and play. Install it and you can min/max your damage, do the mechanic properly (even if all goes wrong due to felseekers it is so easy to find a safe spot with radar) and raid leaders can focus their attention to other things. The Paragon method requires additional preparation, study and planning before the encounter.

    Same with soaking Kormrok pools. The addon assigns people to specific spots in-game. Without the addon I need to make a drawing/paint roughly where people should stand/soak and either have them memorize it or use smoke bombs or markers. And even adjust this everytime I have a new player in the group.

    I view it merely as quality of life stuff, in my opinion the encounter does not get harder/easier with these addons and removing them just gives raid leaders more hassle with handeling assignments every raid.
    You're basically complaining you have to actually make considerations for the encounter rather than have an addon direct you while you tunnel the boss.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Curnivore View Post
    There are such fights. The Nighthold for example has a boss near a water platform that spawns pools of that sort. I guess they are nasty in mythic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I think there is at least one other boss with a mechanic of that sort.
    Just spawning pools to soak isn't something that really necessitates addon interaction, unless the entire raid needs to be sorted on the fly. That being said, these encounters were also all designed with the current addon functionality allowed, so if they disable this stuff and don't compensate in the design, there's going to be some pretty significant issues.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Nahela View Post
    Just spawning pools to soak isn't something that really necessitates addon interaction, unless the entire raid needs to be sorted on the fly. That being said, these encounters were also all designed with the current addon functionality allowed, so if they disable this stuff and don't compensate in the design, there's going to be some pretty significant issues.
    For bosses that were tested on mythic they were tested without addons anyway and I don't remember any feedback about people feeling they couldn't handle mechanicaly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

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