Does exclusivity make a better game? Gating content

[Sansnom]

Just so you know, i am a proud snowflake who thinks exclusivity is key for immersion.

I really like to hear your reason for this. Please understand what immersion when you answer.

[Jtbrig7390]

@Jtbrig7390

This is all i have from TBC
A survey of 2 million players (81 000 guilds). 99.45% of those guilds cleared Karazhan.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles...-than-it-helps

I don't have the information about the other 6 million players. But the statistics are not looking bad for people who "entered karazhan" and raided.
Rest of the article:
http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles...-it-helps-pg-2
http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles...-it-helps-pg-3

81,000 guilds is only 810,000 players if there was one 10man group per guild. Doesn't matter how many guilds cleared it, what matters is how many players and 810k out of 8 million is not a lot. Millions got to see Deathwing thanks to LFR over the thousands who cleared kara.

Like it or not LFR is the reason raiding is still around or endgame, it justify's the raiding budget.

If that had changed LFR would have died with WOD not be brought back to life come Legion.

[Demithio]

It wasn't made for the sake of sight seeing. It was made to justify the budget that go's into raiding. Once again read the whole quote and its not the only quote of them saying LFR justify's raiding for hardcores and casuals alike.

This is a fact that people like you keep trying to be blind to.

There was no need for LFR. Plenty of people raided in wotlk and saw raid content. Much more so than TBC by a large margin. LFR actually did more harm to Blizzard's 'budget' than not having it due to it making content more or less meaningless through almost total ease of access.

[Jtbrig7390]

There was no need for LFR. Plenty of people raided in wotlk and saw raid content. Much more so than TBC by a large margin. LFR actually did more harm to Blizzard's 'budget' than not having it due to it making content more or less meaningless through almost total ease of access.

Blizzard disagree's with you and I do believe they are the ones who's opinion matter's the most.

https://www.engadget.com/2012/08/23/...g-progression/

The existence of LFR justifies the creation of more raid content for casual and hardcore players alike.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...ine-Blue-Posts

Ion Hazzikostas - Lead Encounter Designer (Convert to Raid)

LFR justifies the creation of more raid content when millions of players are able to see content. Only a few thousand people actually saw Kel'thuzad, but millions saw Deathwing. The reason Mists of Pandaria is starting with 18 bosses and adding larger raid tiers than we have had previously is because many players are going to see the raids through LFR.

Right out of blizzards mouth, are you saying they are lying?

[Sansnom]

There was no need for LFR. Plenty of people raided in wotlk and saw raid content. Much more so than TBC by a large margin. LFR actually did more harm to Blizzard's 'budget' than not having it due to it making content more or less meaningless through almost total ease of access.

If plenty of people raided Wotlk, then why spend the time to make LFR?

[Demithio]

Blizzard disagree's with you and I do believe they are the ones who's opinion matter's the most.

And Blizzard is now dealing with their own sub losses due to this thinking. Consider this: "I saw the content easily through LFR, I 'defeated' the raid(s), now I'm bored, more content please!, no I don't want to do the raid all over again on a higher difficulty because its old news now that I've seen it all, and I'm decked out in shinies! Wheres my new content??!!, What?? No rapid new content to keep me from being bored??? I'm quitting then!"

[Jtbrig7390]

And Blizzard is now dealing with their own sub losses due to this thinking.

You do realize subs was bleeding before LFR right?

People like you seem to think you know some magical fix to the sub loss. News Flash its blizzard who runs the multi-billion dollar MMO not you. You don't have a fix or a idea that will work because its not you running the game and seeing why people are leaving.

The game is 12 years old nearly and believe it or not people just stop playing.

Hell even I have considered making Legion my last expansion no matter how much I like it or not. Playing the same game for 12 years (10 for me) gets old.

[Guy4123]

81,000 guilds is only 81,000 players if there was one 10man group per guild. Doesn't matter how many guilds cleared it, what matters is how many players.

Lets for giggles say there was 10 raid groups per guild, that is still 810,000 players out of 8 million players. That is not a lot by any measurement. Millions got to see Deathwing thanks to LFR over the thousands who cleared kara.

Like it or not LFR is the reason raiding is still around or endgame, it justify's the raiding budget.

If that had changed LFR would have died with WOD not be brought back to life come Legion.

Since when was Karazhan a 1 man raid?

[Vynestra]

I voted no, but I think time gating things is good, all the gates of hell being thrown open at once with content is too much, time gating content is fine.

But gating things for high end only? Not really, Mythic stuff is fine with tier sets, higher gear and the mount at the end.

But if there was a bigger slice of the game gated, i'd be against it. (even being someone who has killed M archi and has the mount and is i744)

[Spiral Mage]

It boils down to that question: "Do you want to work for what you have?"

Alot of people seem to think that they shouldn't have to work for what they have in WoW, that they just want to 'relax' or 'just play a game', but that just isn't the audience WoW captured in the first place, and it's trying to target that audience more now, that has had alot to do with BLIZ's fall from grace. Well, that and utterly moronic Dev decisions as of late, like, incredibly so.

I think it's fine to have some games that are more 'hardcore' and demand more of players. Some of us want that, like myself. I don't mind fighting for what I have. It isn't the game's systems I consider the problem today, it's the extreme toxicity and entitlement mindset flooding WoW that has ruined it for me.

One of the key questions you have to ask yourself as a Dev, often is: "What kind of audience am I trying to target?" And the answer can't be "everyone", because that will never work. You pick an audience and focus on them. As for others? There are other games for them to play if this isn't their cup of tea.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with quality of life changes. Sometimes you can help players by making things clearer, and easier to understand, without simplifying the game itself.

Still though, people want to be rewarded for the effort they put in, so yes, it can make a better game if that is the audience it's aimed at. There's also all kinds of work vs. reward in WoW, but generally, learning how to play and being willing to make a bit of a commitment to playing, is not unreasonable based on the model WoW was founded on.

[Jtbrig7390]

Since when was Karazhan a 1 man raid?

Ya my brain doesn't want to work tonight and that was a typo. I ment to say 810,000 and my point still stands and I fixed the typo and the quote

[Sansnom]

And Blizzard is now dealing with their own sub losses due to this thinking. Consider this: "I saw the content easily through LFR, I 'defeated' the raid(s), now I'm bored, more content please!, no I don't want to do the raid all over again on a higher difficulty because its old news now that I've seen it all, and I'm decked out in shinies! Wheres my new content??!!, What?? No rapid new content to keep me from being bored??? I'm quitting then!"

And what did these players do before LFR? You are making an assumption that these players would have stepped up to normal raids? Why did they not do that before LFR?

[Demithio]

You do realize subs was bleeding before LFR right?

People like you seem to think you know some magical fix to the sub loss. News Flash its blizzard who runs the multi-billion dollar MMO not you. You don't have a fix or a idea that will work because its not you running the game and seeing why people are leaving.

The game is 12 years old nearly and believe it or not people just stop playing.

Hell even I have considered making Legion my last expansion no matter how much I like it or not. Playing the same game for 12 years (10 for me) gets old.

Yes, some people will stop playing. However, Blizzard has seemed to expedite this process themselves. My opinion, yours is obviously different.

[Guy4123]

Ya my brain doesn't want to work tonight and that was a typo. I ment to say 810,000 and my point still stands and I fixed the typo

Well the survey is for 81k guilds and 99.45% of them fully completed Karazhan not just killed Attunemen. Most guilds had 2-3 Karazhan groups each too since the next raid (which according to that website 70% cleared) was 25man so you're looking at probably doubling the number at least just for the surveyed guilds. I know my guild had around 5 regular Karazhan groups along with weekly pugish groups for some since their were two 25 man raids going. Hell I used to still tank Karazhan with some friends in another small guild when I was in mostly Sunwell gear because Karazhan was just fun.

I have no doubt that it's possible 70% of the play base had entered Karazhan and killed at least 1 boss.

LFR isn't a bad idea though I liked it in MoP a great deal. I just don't like how Blizzards new catch up mechanics released in new patches invalidates pretty much all previous raids. I mean Magisters Terrace heroic gear was on par with Karazhan loot on item level. Tanaan Jungle stuff can be made a higher item level than Blackrock Foundry Mythic gear. That seems stupid to me. They're making 3/4th of the current expansion content useless in a few afternoons of farming one zone solo.

[nekobaka]

The justification was in more raid content. Organized raiding did not need LFR to justify the amount of resources it was getting at the time. The increased budget did not come out of thin air. The increased budget came out of dungeons which shared the same dev team while taking away content from millions who enjoyed it. Even in WoD there was more players who did dungeons than touched the raids in all difficulties. The increased resources into raiding was only beneficial for raiders while others got their content cut and supporters of such are the elitist.

OT:
WoW is a themepark MMO which is supposed to cater to a wide variety of players. Not everyone is supposed to do everything nor is everyone supposed to enjoy everything in the game. Exclusivity comes natural to such games that cater to such a wide audience. Expecting soloist to enjoy getting shoved into group based content is silly and narrow minded. Though seems some players here think everyone who plays wants raiding as their endgame.

It is fairly telling the contrast in complaints between accessibility between PVE and PVE. Bulk of those who complain about PVE accessibility hate the ever living shit out of PVP yet do not complain about accessibility in PVP including its rewards that are even far more exclusive than comparable rewards are in PVE.

[Jtbrig7390]

Well the survey is for 81k guilds and 99.45% of them fully completed Karazhan not just killed Attunemen. Most guilds had 2-3 Karazhan groups each too since the next raid (which according to that website 70% cleared) was 25man so you're looking at probably doubling the number at least just for the surveyed guilds. I know my guild had around 5 regular Karazhan groups along with weekly pugish groups for some since their were two 25 man raids going. Hell I used to still tank Karazhan with some friends in another small guild when I was in mostly Sunwell gear because Karazhan was just fun.

I have no doubt that it's possible 70% of the play base had entered Karazhan and killed at least 1 boss.

LFR isn't a bad idea though I liked it in MoP a great deal. I just don't like how Blizzards new catch up mechanics released in new patches invalidates pretty much all previous raids. I mean Magisters Terrace heroic gear was on par with Karazhan loot on item level. Tanaan Jungle stuff can be made a higher item level than Blackrock Foundry Mythic gear. That seems stupid to me. They're making 3/4th of the current expansion content useless in a few afternoons of farming one zone solo.

Well since now gear dam near everywhere can roll to the highest ilvl, That makes most if not all content relevant from start to finish. Personally I am all for the Legion setup.

[Demithio]

And what did these players do before LFR? You are making an assumption that these players would have stepped up to normal raids? Why did they not do that before LFR?

They did and they stepped into normal raids because that was the only avenue for them to take if they wanted to see raid instances. As I said, in wrath most casual players could see raid content with a bit of work (omg that nasty 4 letter word!) and preparation because it was balanced to allow it without cheapening and rapidly making obsolete the content. Label this whatever you wish, but it gave people (yes and casuals) something to strive for that was actually doable. It also kept them playing and paying sub fees.

[guardian_titan]

In a single player game, if I spend $50, I expect to be able to get every little thing since I'm a completionist. If I can't get something, I'll eventually resort to cheating. If I can't find a way to cheat, I quit the game and I'm less likely to buy any later games. A game that I can get everything without cheating is more likely to see my money with sequals than a game where I have to resort to cheating or quit before I get everything.

I hate gating. I hate exclusive stuff. I paid the same for the game as everyone else. Why is some content out of my reach? It's one thing if I had to pay an extra $5 to access content. I'll be willing to forego that unless it's something I really want, but if I pay that extra $5, I expect to be able to see it. But I'm not paying an extra $5. I'm paying the same as everyone else.

If you go to an amusement park, you pay the entry fee and thus you expect to have access to ALL rides. Yes, you might have to wait a little, but no ride requires you pay extra. Only thing you pay extra for is the food and souvenirs. Now imagine if the amusement park said no more free rides. The admission fee was just to get you into the park. You now had to pay $1 per child and $3 per adult to ride every single ride. How pissed would you be? You pay like $100 to get into the park and now have to pay additional money to ride any rides on top of spending more money for the food and souvenirs? Amusement parks would just turn into very expensive parks where you pay to just walk around.

That's what WoW is turning into. Blizzard's just having us pay $14.99 a month as an entry fee but everything else is gated behind something that's typically related to other players and thus can't be controlled for. While I don't mind waiting to access something, having it outright taken from me before I can even do it is unfair. I paid to access that and Blizzard took it away without offering any compensation. With players playing gatekeeper on content, they're effectively taking money from me by telling me I can't do something. And if that content gets removed before I get a chance to do it solo an expansion or two later, I really lost the value of my money.

Gating is fine as long as it's controlled. I have no issue with raid wings being gated since they'll open regardless. I have some issue with dungeons being locked behind rep since I hate rep farming on my alts. I take issue with players being the gatekeepers. I never had a chance to do even normal Garrosh in SoO back in MoP because I quit for a year and came back with crappy gear that was still from Mogu'shan Vaults, Heart of Fear, and Terrace of Endless Springs. I had terrible luck with drops in Throne of Thunder so had little from that when I had quit. I imagine a good many players never got things like Champion of the Naaru, Hand of A'dal, or even the Black Harvest title before those got removed. While the quests are still there, the title reward is now gone. For many, that kills the incentive to do it.

Players shouldn't be the ones to decide that another person can or can't do something. Blizzard should be the only ones to say it, and even they shouldn't remove something thus limiting it's availability. I paid for that content. If it gets removed before I can get it, I want compensation. If I go to a store for a sale only to find the item I want is sold out, I either ask for the deal to be applied to a similar item or I ask for a rain check. If they refuse to do either for me, then I quit going to that store. Blizzard offers no compensation for removing things. Blizzard's acting like cable companies that give you a set number of channels for the cheapest package only to remove channels later and force you to buy the next package up for more money to get the same channels back. Otherwise, you're stuck paying the same price for fewer channels. MAYBE the cable company will add an alternate channel instead but it might end up a channel you don't want like a foreign language, shopping, news, or sports channel. And cable companies aren't exactly beloved right now.

Exclusivity is a load of crap and has no place in a game where everyone pays the same amount to access the same content. Give an item a low drop rate, require a long quest chain and/or rep to access content, but don't let players choose who can do what. AND DON'T REMOVE IT!

[RedNight at MMOC]

For an MMO and in my opinion, exclusivity gives players a goal. If everyone could get the Mythic Archimonde mount or that particular season's Gladiator, then it would have no worth. Does it make the game better? Now that is a much larger question than anyone realizes.

[Sansnom]

They did and they stepped into normal raids because that was the only avenue for them to take if they wanted to see raid instances. As I said, in wrath most casual players could see raid content with a bit of work (omg that nasty 4 letter word!) and preparation because it was balanced to allow it without cheapening and rapidly making obsolete the content. Call this time gating if you wish, but it gave people (yes and casuals) something to strive for that was actually doable. It also kept them playing and paying sub fees.

So then, why make LFR? If WOTLK worked as well as you claim, why the need for LFR?

You keep claiming that most casual players could see raid content. Did they or did they not? Either they did or they did not. Saying they they COULD, but they did not. Why? If they did not put the effort then, why would they put the effort in now?

One common view some of the posters have, including you, is that they play the game same as you, so they must be like you, and should enjoy the game in the same way as you do. A valid view since we are in the same game. But it is the wrong one. We are all different. There are many members in my guide and previous one who did not see raiding as that great or special and have no interest in the organization and scheduling require.

To them, this a game. They play when they feel like playing. Not because they have to so others can play. As you said, work. This is a game to them. Why should they put any effort into it? You and others like you may derived enjoyment from it. They do not.