Official MMOC Hunger Games thread 4

[Jester Joe]

Checkmate Joe, that isn't development. That's characterization. Those flashbacks do nothing but further explain the person he is.

Past ------- Introduction ------ Future
^^Characterization^^^^^^^^
------------------- ^^Development^^

Okay, just ignore EVERYTHING PAST FLASHBACKS.

That's cool too. I expected a bit better than that.

[Jester Joe]

I didn't Joe, I just need you to know the difference of ZATION AN DEVELOPMENT

An just know I'm not saying Lee's a bad character. He's fine. Static characters are fine especially when they do nothing to progress or affect the plot/narrative

There is no "needing to know the difference", there's a reason I pointed out it's in flashbacks.

I'm not going to bother continuing this, you flat out just showed you ignored it by saying Rock Lee is static when he clearly isn't. He hated everything that happened to him after being defeated by Gaara, yet still found it within him to defend him after that.

[THE Bigzoman]

oh no, with my ban lifted..we're gonna argue more

essays incoming

Can someone pleaseeee fill me in?!

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I could go back to Shunsui but after the way Bleach ended...

I'm waiting for the Blood War arc to be complete before I even touch Bleach again, honestly.

[ChronoSul]

Can someone pleaseeee fill me in?!

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I'm waiting for the Blood War arc to be complete before I even touch Bleach again, honestly.

It is complete its ended

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unless u mean the anime

[THE Bigzoman]

That he is. I don't like that, do you?



Which is actually interesting. His growth from "I'm the best, most badass warrior in the universe" at the very beginning, to having Goku be a rival who pushes him to his limits, to realizing that Goku is stronger than him which very much hurts his immense pride, to settling down to make a family, to throwing that all away, to sacrificing his life to attempt to kill Buu... That's a good character. Goku has none of that; he's the typical Shonen protagonist. I don't find that interesting.



Is he? I don't think he is.

That's not good development. As a matter of fact, Vegeta didn't develop at all throughout all of DBZ.

Vegeta let his pride harm those he allegedly cared for time and time again. You're ignoring what he did before the Buu arc in your post.

You know, the little part where he allowed Cell to absorb Android 18 to become whole and then getting ROFLstomped by him. It was essentially the exact same mistake he made prior--he allowed his Super Sayian status to inflate his ego and underestimate his opponents. There was no reason to think that Perfect Cell wasn't going to merk Vegeta like Android 18 did earlier. None. Yet, he still let Cell Bullshit his way into achieving feats that he never should've been able to.

Carry that over in the Buu arc. His mistakes and motives are no different from fighting goku and reviving Buu. They were only done so he could regain a predetermined status that he thought he was entitled too: The prince of all Sayians i'm the best of the world and nothing is ever going to keep me down.

A lot of people like to think of Vegeta's laughable sacrifice against Fat Buu was his big development moment. It wasn't. It doesn't take long for Vegeta to return to the fray and allow his pride to make similar mistakes (refusing to fuse with the Potara earrings until Goku begged him + getting Roflstomped by Super Buu).

The best "development" that i've seen was his willingness to get beaten to a pulp by Kid Buu to give Goku time. But let's be honest, was that really development, or Vegeta just trying to spite Majin Buu--the person who made a bigger fool out of him than Freiza did?

Making the same mistakes in critical moments again and again isn't development. It's non-linear at best and regressive at worst.

[THE Bigzoman]

It is complete its ended

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unless u mean the anime

Is the Manga done? Sooner than expected.

Guess it's time to start reading the final arc.

[ChronoSul]

Is the Manga done? Sooner than expected.

Guess it's time to start reading the final arc.

Just dont... Kubo got rushed towards the end

[Jester Joe]

Joe of course there is a need to know the difference. In this exact situation you're ignoring the characterization given to us which explains how he will be an act through out the rest of the narrative

No, I'm not continuing at this rate. You're misreading something, I'm flat out saying "Yes, I know that, that's why I labeled it, now address the rest" and you're just continuing talking about that which I've already acknowledged.

[ChronoSul]

Dont get me wrong its still a good series and the ending was alright for the time he was given

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Definitely heard it got cancelled.

o it did which is why Kubo was rushed..

[Rokom]

I mean, I could still go on...

Granted I've only watched the first episode (I'm waiting on it to finish and then marathon it), but the first episode didn't do anything for me, in regards to the humor, characters, or plot. I did enjoy the use of color and animation, though.

Don't you make me start the quoting again. I'll do it...! <3

I would suggest giving ep 2 a shot as well. If you don't like the ending to it, then the series might not be for you.

[THE Bigzoman]

Dont get me wrong its still a good series and the ending was alright for the time he was given

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o it did which is why Kubo was rushed..

On a scale of one to Final Fantasy 9, to what degree did the rushed ending feel completly out of left field and left more questions than answers?

[ChronoSul]

On a scale of one to Final Fantasy 9, to what degree did the rushed ending feel completly out of left field and left more questions than answers?

like he found out he had to end it in 10 weeks ten weeks ago

[Jester Joe]

Joe.........he.....saw.....no.....development... he was shown to us to be that guy...

He was never shown to be a guy to defend someone who nearly killed his entire dream.

That's growth.

If you want to argue that it isn't, then you're equally proving that Vegeta didn't grow at all, since he never was shown as someone who was uncaring, and in his backstory he cared about his brother.

[THE Bigzoman]

like he found out he had to end it in 10 weeks ten weeks ago

Meh. It's not badd.

Was hoping for Aizen to come back. And everything seems hunky dory. could've been worse.

[Volibear]

When does he even defend gaara..

also, in terms of Vegeta
"Amazing. How do you do it, Kakarot?

You've always been like this, ever since the day I first met you; always ready to meet the next challenge, even if it's bigger than you are...

It was the same on Namek. You had improved so much that it made Recoome look like he was standing still. Your power had increased so dramatically since our battle on Earth that I thought you had done it, I thought that you had become a Super Saiyan! It tore me apart! How could a low-class soldier accomplish so easily what I...I had to struggle my whole life to achieve!?

After three millennia, it just finally happened; a new Super Saiyan has emerged, and, somehow, I have become this pauper's witness. Then at last, it happened. I too transformed. After living every moment of every day for the singular purpose of surpassing you, I finally became a Super Saiyan myself, the Prince had reclaimed his throne and fulfilled his destiny. But no matter how strong I became, your power still exceeded mine.

At first, I thought it was your loved ones; that it was your instinct to protect them that spurred you on and pushed you beyond your limits. But then I found myself with a family of my own, and my power... didn't increase at all.

I used to fight for the sheer pleasure of it; for the thrill of the hunt, oh I had the strength unmeasurable - I spared no one. And yet, you showed mercy to everyone, even your fiercest enemies, even me! Yet, you never fought to kill, or for revenge. Only to test your limits and to push yourself beyond them, to become the strongest you could possibly be. How can a Saiyan fight like that and at the same time be so gentle that he wouldn't hurt a fly? It makes me angry just thinking about it! But, perhaps it is my anger that has made me blind to the truth for so long. I see it now, this day has made it all too clear.

You're better than me Kakarot. You are the best."
— Vegeta

All of his characterization summed up at the end of Dbz... which leads into Super where Vegeta was humbled an finally became stronger than Goku. Shallow? sure. But its development. An a fine job being that the target audience is twelve year olds.

I like Vegeta over Goku purely because I find Goku boring.

[Jester Joe]

When does he even defend gaara..

Genuinely triggered. It took you 3-4 quotes to admit you don't even know about the key point I'm making?

All of his characterization summed up at the end of Dbz... which leads into Super where Vegeta was humbled an finally became stronger than Goku. Shallow? sure. But its development. An a fine job being that the target audience is twelve year olds.

Whichhhh..... has been my argument all along. Vegeta had development, but it's so shallow it barely even scratched the depths of anything.

Remind me again why you're trying to prove me wrong if you're agreeing it's shallow...?

[Jester Joe]

Because that is still more than Lee Joe. Lee. Has. NONE. I'm cycling through every depth of my mind, I can't remember a time Lee saves Gaara.. I remember the search for, the thing he was sent out to do ON ORDERS, not principle

I didn't remember the order correctly, it was Gaara who shows up for Lee at the stupid bone guy, but he still forgives Gaara is the point.

Are you forgetting the fact that Lee was extremely bitter during his injuries, to the point of even yelling at Ino to go away? I suppose not. Or the fact that not once did he disagree to go out and help with anything Gaara related after that. If that's not growth to you, I don't know what to say. Rock Lee went from cocky confidence in his abilities, to being extremely bitter for losing his dream, to then becoming more humble and acknowledged as a ninja after.

And let's go back to the fact that a vast majority of the Naruto characters DO have much more development than the entire cast of DBZ. That was my original point, since Iced said the whole DBZ episode thing being a reason for bad development, and I pointed to Naruto as an example. So while you can argue til we're blue in the fact about Rock Lee specifically, it doesn't change that DBZ doesn't hold a candle to Naruto in terms of development.

[Jester Joe]

Joe...

So you messed up your own 'key point'
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/213/6
^^^^ all this leads into Gaara's development, not Lee's.

Second the majority of Naruto character as the Dbz, shounen in general lack development Joe. The only stand outs of these series are... Gaara, Piccolo, Skikamaru, Trunks, I could argue Goku, Choji, you could argue Neji an Hinata.

What development does Piccolo get?

Remember, it's NOT the same Piccolo from the beginning who was a villain. It's his offspring. So that goes down the drain.
Trunks is exactly the same as he is from the start, by your own logic, anything with the Androids is from the past, characterization, not development.
Goku we've already settled has no development, he doesn't change from the start at all, and it's fine that he doesn't. You'd be literally the only person arguing otherwise.

Also you're mixing in Naruto characters with your DBZ characters there, why would you argue Goku and Choji against Neji and Hinata as proof for your side, when one of those isn't even a DBZ character?

And no, Shonen in general do NOT lack development. That's just a copout excuse. They tend to not is the correct answer, because people aren't watching them for in depth stories, but for every DBZ there is that skips over development, there's a Gurren Lagann to do the opposite.

[Volibear]

What development does Piccolo get?

Remember, it's NOT the same Piccolo from the beginning who was a villain. It's his offspring. So that goes down the drain.
Trunks is exactly the same as he is from the start, by your own logic, anything with the Androids is from the past, characterization, not development.
Goku we've already settled has no development, he doesn't change from the start at all, and it's fine that he doesn't. You'd be literally the only person arguing otherwise.

Also you're mixing in Naruto characters with your DBZ characters there, why would you argue Goku and Choji against Neji and Hinata as proof for your side, when one of those isn't even a DBZ character?

And no, Shonen in general do NOT lack development. That's just a copout excuse. They tend to not is the correct answer, because people aren't watching them for in depth stories, but for every DBZ there is that skips over development, there's a Gurren Lagann to do the opposite.

Gurren Lagann is one of the best anime I've watched.

[Jester Joe]

Gurren Lagann is one of the best anime I've watched.

It's actually managed to get me to change my background from Steins;Gate, which is quite surprising to me.