1. #4081
    Quote Originally Posted by Amanni View Post
    Piccolo is the spawn of a demon, yet former god. enthralled by the very motivations an memories of his father. On introduction we know him to be the same Demon King Piccolo hell bent on ruling, killing Kami(god), an the mortal(Goku) who did him in. Even after several losses to Goku Piccolo hides away somewhere plotting an training on how he'll best Goku, an than conquer the world.

    Enter Z an the struggle with the Saiyans. Piccolo acts in the sole interest of getting himself closer to rule, by offering a temporary partnership with Goku(the only other person on his level) to rid this new threat to this throne. we learn he's an alien, spends months with Gohan the very quintessence of pure an innocence... the saiyan's arrive an he makes the ultimate sacrifice for said innocence....namek happens giving him two reasons to go from conqueror to protector. enter Androids where he's made full atonement an for the sake of 'OUR' not 'HIS' world he merges again with Kami(god) to look over the planet once more.

    TL DR That is Piccolo's entire character arc is of a Fallen Angel's return to holy prominence.

    Which you would know if you didn't just cast dbz aside as another fighting manga. Akira Toriyama doesn't have great plots, sure. But he does damn fucking well on his characters
    I like all this backstory being presented as if it's development.

    Learning he's an alien? That's not development, he was ALWAYS an alien. It was just a matter of where from.

    And he didn't make "attonement", because he didn't do anything wrong. That was his father, not him. They're not the same exact person. Stop trying to make one's backstory relevant to the other's while dismissing Rock Lee's.

    And yet again, I'm not casting it aside, you're just thinking that for some reason because you don't want to accept the criticism. Why you keep harping on this while I'm saying the opposite is beyond me, but just keeps proving there's no point in debating this because you don't even want to listen. I mean, come on, you're literally using King Piccolo's backstory to support Piccolo's nonexistent character development while telling me that Rock Lee's backstory doesn't matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amanni View Post
    We did not settle this. This like Piccolo an Trunks was an oversight because people think Dbz is just fighting, badass transformations, an yelling.
    Watch an anime with actual in depth character development and get back to me, because that's pretty much exactly what DBZ is. AND ONE MORE TIME, that is not to say there ISN'T character development, it's just that the development is about the size of a kiddy pool, and isn't even that well done.

    I mean, come on, who the hell does anything in the ENTIRE STORY besides Goku and Gohan that one time?

    Oh, Krillin tried to stop people! ...buuut he died, and didn't do anything.
    Oh, Tien and Chaotzu tried to stop people! ....but they died, and didn't even do anything.
    Oh, Vegeta tried to stop Buu! ...but he died and didn't even do anything.
    Oh, Trunks and Goten fused to try to stop Buu! ...but he just powered up more and it did nothing.

    NOT LIKE IT MATTERS, BECAUSE EVERY SINGLE DEATH IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY MEANINGLESS EXCEPT TO GET MORE DRAGONBALLS TO WISH THEM BACK!

    What the hell was the point of Gohan being stronger than Goku if Goku just gets even stronger than Gohan who was suppose to be stronger than Goku overall due to being of mixed races? What was the point of Gohan going to try to get the legendary sword when it helped him do nothing and Goku ended up killing Buu anyway?


    Goku's core character never changed. Him "struggling with being a saiyan" never affected him being an extremely kind soul. His only 'growth' is in strength. Him becoming friends with people isn't character development.
    Last edited by Jester Joe; 2016-08-22 at 05:34 AM.

  2. #4082
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amanni View Post
    Piccolo is the spawn of a demon, yet former god. enthralled by the very motivations an memories of his father. On introduction we know him to be the same Demon King Piccolo hell bent on ruling, killing Kami(god), an the mortal(Goku) who did him in. Even after several losses to Goku Piccolo hides away somewhere plotting an training on how he'll best Goku, an than conquer the world.

    Enter Z an the struggle with the Saiyans. Piccolo acts in the sole interest of getting himself closer to rule, by offering a temporary partnership with Goku(the only other person on his level) to rid this new threat to this throne. we learn he's an alien, spends months with Gohan the very quintessence of pure an innocence... the saiyan's arrive an he makes the ultimate sacrifice for said innocence....namek happens giving him two reasons to go from conqueror to protector. enter Androids where he's made full atonement an for the sake of 'OUR' not 'HIS' world he merges again with Kami(god) to look over the planet once more.

    TL DR That is Piccolo's entire character arc is of a Fallen Angel's return to holy prominence.

    Which you would know if you didn't just cast dbz aside as another fighting manga. Akira Toriyama doesn't have great plots, sure. But he does damn fucking well on his characters

    - - - Updated - - -



    Nigger... We did not settle this. This like Piccolo an Trunks was an oversight because people think Dbz is just fighting, badass transformations, an yelling.

    Goku's arc is throughout the ENTIRE SERIES. Be it dragonball, or Z. But to specifically mention Z

    The Freeza Saga has probably Goku's greatest evolution as a character. his struggle with his Saiyan heritage. though not really mentioned much, but it's obvious when you look at the series in hindsight. From the day Goku learns he's an alien, he's always denying it and exclaiming that he's a human. All of that denial leads to a great payoff during Vegeta's death.

    Goku: (As he buries Vegeta's body) I think I understand you now. You weren't grieving over your own death, or because our home planet was destroyed. You were grieving because he turned you into what he wanted you to be. You never had a chance to be anything else. Well I still respect you. I know you made a lot of mistakes, but now I see that it wasn't all your fault. You had the fiery will of a Saiyan. Please share that with me now, 'cause I need it. Thank you for saving my son's life and buying enough time for me to recuperate. I'll do my best to carry out your wish. (to Frieza) It's true. Vegeta's right. You have no honor. For him. And for everyone else you've destroyed, I am going to finish you.
    @Volibear
    I'm not joining this debate, for the sake of my sanity. I already made my point of disliking Goku because I found him boring.
    Why do you insist on pushing this shit?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Brolibear!
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    Ladies know and love his caaaaaause! It is the Panda with the Chainsaw claaaaaws!

  3. #4083
    Quote Originally Posted by Amanni View Post
    Joe he was not an alien in Dragonball he thought himself a demon.
    That's not development. What even. So what if his father thought he was a demon? That doesn't change anything about how Piccolo's development.

    And Rock Lee thought he was useless and a piece of trash before meeting Guy/Gai, but that doesn't count?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amanni View Post
    Joe, he was born in the burden of his father's sin. WITH HIS FATHERS MEMORIES AN AMBITIONS. You're not listening at all dude.
    You're the one who isn't listening.

    If you're dismissing a key point of what makes Rock Lee who he is because "it happened in the past", then what happened to Piccolo's "father" has nothing to do with him. So what "if he was born with the memories"? He was still pretty much the exact same character at the end.

    Despite his gradual shift toward a more heroic attitude, Piccolo still can be rude and confrontational toward people he deems stupid and is extremely direct and honest when giving his opinions about a situation or an individual, even if they may be considered extremely derogatory.
    Mind you, this "heroic attitude" literally happened within the first arc, with Raditz. There is nothing past that.

    Hey, want to get really technical too? After Piccolo fuses with Kami again, he's not even Piccolo anymore, he even says that himself. He just wants them to be called Piccolo instead. Any "development" is due to Kami's personality fusing with Piccolo's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amanni View Post
    An you're holding against the series what the editor did to it. Do you know Toriyama wanted it to end with Frieza? Did you know he tried to end it again with Cell after passing the baton to Gohan?? only to be forced to write more. Do you know Tori tried making end game MULTIPLE TIMES but was forced to write more because money maker???
    I'm not going to give the story pity points just because it didn't end the way the author wanted. We're discussing what happened, not "What if's" here.

  4. #4084
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koeienvlaai View Post
    seems to me you're returning to the dark ways!
    "Returning to the dark ways" would mean I stopped following them..

  5. #4085
    Quote Originally Posted by Amanni View Post
    @Jester Joe just pick a day for coms Joe. an list a series you think has 'in depth development' an i'll get back too you.
    No coms, there's no point.

    And I already did, but apparently you really weren't reading.

  6. #4086
    Quote Originally Posted by Amanni View Post
    Joe there is always a point. Speaking has always been better than written word. An I haven't seen Guerran Lagun
    No, because if we were speaking we wouldn't be speaking right now.

    And okay? You asked for one, so there you go.

  7. #4087
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amanni View Post
    Joe there is always a point. Speaking has always been better than written word. An I haven't seen Guerran Lagun
    Then watch Gurren Lagan. Seriously, go watch it now.

  8. #4088
    Quote Originally Posted by Amanni View Post
    Why wouldn't we be speaking... Im neither angry nor annoyed by this conversation.
    That's you.

    I'm getting frustrated because you're telling me Rock Lee's development doesn't include his past, while listing how Piccolo's father's past influenced his character.

    You know, exactly how Rock Lee's past did.

  9. #4089
    Quote Originally Posted by Amanni View Post
    Yes Joe. I'm listing his father's past, his past as his character, an than i cited the development of through Z.
    Yes, and when I did the same for Rock Lee at first you literally just dismissed it. Why you would think Piccolo's father's past affects him more than Rock Lee's own past is beyond me, but whatever, I'm really done with this now.

  10. #4090
    Quote Originally Posted by Amanni View Post
    But you said his flashbacks which were characterization, than Gaara saving him.. which the Gaara saving him was development for Gaara... just help me understand Joe.
    If you're not understanding then why should I bother?

    You're talking about a mistake while missing my original point that was he befriended Gaara despite what happened between them. (Hey, look, it's what Piccolo did that you're saying is his development!)

    Then, I was agreeing development isn't quite the same from flashbacks, which is what you said.

    Then you go on to say how flashbacks for Piccolo are his development.

    If anyone needs to explain this double standard, it's you.

  11. #4091
    Quote Originally Posted by Amanni View Post
    Joe I didn't say it was development of piccolo past, I said that was the characterization.

    I said what happens in Z is the development.
    But nothing happens in Z aside from bare bones teenage angst basically.

    Piccolo dislikes Goku, beats him up, then they both realize the Saiyans are the bigger threat, and then they become friends after Goku gives his life to kill Raditz.

    That's it. Piccolo is done being the bad guy then. Within the very first arc.

    Such development.

    I'm going to bed.

  12. #4092
    Quote Originally Posted by Amanni View Post
    sleep well
    Also one more thing-
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    What development does Piccolo get?
    Quote Originally Posted by Amanni View Post
    Piccolo is the spawn of a demon, yet former god. enthralled by the very motivations an memories of his father. On introduction we know him to be the same Demon King Piccolo hell bent on ruling, killing Kami(god), an the mortal(Goku) who did him in. Even after several losses to Goku Piccolo hides away somewhere plotting an training on how he'll best Goku, an than conquer the world.

    Enter Z an the struggle with the Saiyans. Piccolo acts in the sole interest of getting himself closer to rule, by offering a temporary partnership with Goku(the only other person on his level) to rid this new threat to this throne. we learn he's an alien, spends months with Gohan the very quintessence of pure an innocence... the saiyan's arrive an he makes the ultimate sacrifice for said innocence....namek happens giving him two reasons to go from conqueror to protector. enter Androids where he's made full atonement an for the sake of 'OUR' not 'HIS' world he merges again with Kami(god) to look over the planet once more.

    TL DR That is Piccolo's entire character arc is of a Fallen Angel's return to holy prominence.
    I follow up by questioning that as development, you continued to explain how his father's memories matter or something.

    NOW suddenly you're saying it's not.

    Hope you can at least see where that misunderstanding is coming from. Not trying to continue this because I really don't want to, just pointing out why it seemed as if you were saying this was all development, since that's what I asked for.

    you too.

  13. #4093
    Quote Originally Posted by Amanni View Post
    Ok this was my fault Joe, im sorry. The first paragraph was meant for characterization, the second the development.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amanni View Post
    I hope you'll talk to me about Goku, Trunks, an the lots on coms later <3
    No, because they all suck anyway. And Gurren Lagann is best manly anime. With Jojo's being a good choice too.
    Last edited by Jester Joe; 2016-08-22 at 06:48 AM.

  14. #4094
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Sooo how was everyones weekend?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  15. #4095
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Sooo how was everyones weekend?
    Too short. I'm taking another 2 day weekend starting tomorrow

  16. #4096
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Sooo how was everyones weekend?
    Good until i realize I have surgery on Tuesday and will be on a soft diet for a month >.>

  17. #4097
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehman View Post
    Too short. I'm taking another 2 day weekend starting tomorrow
    That´s nice.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoSul View Post
    Good until i realize I have surgery on Tuesday and will be on a soft diet for a month >.>
    What? That sucks, or rather you will after surgery. badumts

    So why do you have surgery?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  18. #4098
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    That´s nice.

    - - - Updated - - -



    What? That sucks, or rather you will after surgery. badumts

    So why do you have surgery?
    my gums are recessing thus causing it hard for me to eat something to warm or cold and supposely it will only get worse if i leave it alone

  19. #4099
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoSul View Post
    my gums are recessing thus causing it hard for me to eat something to warm or cold and supposely it will only get worse if i leave it alone
    Uh, that´s terrible, well i hope surgery will fix it.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  20. #4100
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Uh, that´s terrible, well i hope surgery will fix it.
    honestly the worse thing about it will be the soft diet

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