To the people going Fire, next spec?

[Deleted]

fire APL is still quite a work in progress, pretty pointless to draw conclusions atm

Fire APL is at a very stable state.

[Cracked]

3. tobindax changed the name to your actual char, well done

No big deal, didn't remove him off my ignore list

[stevenho]

Fire APL is at a very stable state.

Its being optimized almost weekly so yeah.

[Deleted]

Its being optimized almost weekly so yeah.

Can you tell us what problems you found in it that makes it, and I quote, "pointless to draw conclusions atm" from?

[Xires]

What will you get first, Frost or Arcane?

I was going to go for Frost but I'm fairly sure Arcane will be strong next tier or just sooner or later.

Fire obviously primary but for secondary def Arcane. Frost ALWAYS has had a habit of falling far behind the other two. Frost right now compared to fire is a million miles behind and before pre-patch it was a million miles behind Arc/Fire. No mythic raider worth his weight in salt ever used Frost in HFC once they had heroic+ gear. I liked Frost but given legion and the artifacts I know i'd be waiting my time with it. So Arc will be my 2nd.

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You are missing something, mastery is now last for fire as crit>haste is the new priority. Arcane will want to stack master>haste, and frost will be haste>crit.

As such, fire>frost is a better match up.

Why would haste be better for fire over mastery? Mastery helps with ignites and because we spend most of our time doing insta casts...I don't see how haste can be better the mastery.

[Deleted]

Frost ALWAYS has had a habit of falling far behind the other two. [..] No mythic raider worth his weight in salt ever used Frost in HFC once they had heroic+ gear.

Frost was used by World 1st tier guilds. It was very good for a long time. Arcane went ahead in almost all remaining fights when the fights were cheesed with the ring and Fire was a mainly a gimmick spec for most fights once someone figured out he can cap crit on the crystal (but it was rarely good for progression teams).

[stevenho]

Can you tell us what problems you found in it that makes it, and I quote, "pointless to draw conclusions atm" from?

The problem I found is that its being optimized/fixed weekly. While intellect/crit will remain top stats, it is pointless to draw conclusions about the rest, especially since they change between bosses and kill times.

Frost was used by World 1st tier guilds. It was very good for a long time. Arcane went ahead in almost all remaining fights when the fights were cheesed with the ring and Fire was a mainly a gimmick spec for most fights once someone figured out he can cap crit on the crystal (but it was rarely good for progression teams).

Here you go with your favourite tale. You seem to only ever talk about how it was in HFC. You also have no logs to your name from HM and BRF. Did you start raiding WoD mage in HFC?

Arcane didn't "go ahead aftr ring and cheese" - it was already extremely strong in mythic Highmaul, with all top Butcher parses being arcane for example. It continued to be strong in BRF, with arcane mage destroying meters on world 1st mythic Gruul kill.
Fire never was a "gimmick spec after someone figured out crystal critcap", it was destroying meters in BRF already on cleave/aoe.

Not sure why you continue posting your story while you obviously have no recollection about raids prior to HFC.

[Ammanas]

Fire obviously primary but for secondary def Arcane. Frost ALWAYS has had a habit of falling far behind the other two. Frost right now compared to fire is a million miles behind and before pre-patch it was a million miles behind Arc/Fire. No mythic raider worth his weight in salt ever used Frost in HFC once they had heroic+ gear. I liked Frost but given legion and the artifacts I know i'd be waiting my time with it. So Arc will be my 2nd.

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Why would haste be better for fire over mastery? Mastery helps with ignites and because we spend most of our time doing insta casts...I don't see how haste can be better the mastery.

No offense but I don't think you know what you are talking about. Frost was used a lot on progression. I personally played it on Council, Gorefiend, Tyrant, and Archimonde first kills. It was viable on Manno too, but I ended up as Arcane for the kill. This is in a top 50 world guild BTW.

Fire was only played at this level of progression rarely on Xhul or Iskar to make up for lack of Imp/Add damage if your raid comp needed it.

Frost only became bad once the ring had scaled up and become super important, which was after progression for high-end guilds and thus pretty meaningless. It was to go-to spec for Archimonde progression, the only reason people played Arcane was for Doomfire damage if the group comp needed it.

[Deleted]

The problem I found is that its being optimized/fixed weekly. While intellect/crit will remain top stats, it is pointless to draw conclusions about the rest, especially since they change between bosses and kill times.

How can you find simcraft pointless to draw conclusions from and then in the same statement draw conclusions on stat priorities?

Here you go with your favourite tale. You seem to only ever talk about how it was in HFC.

Do the effort to read the thread. He was talking specifically about HFC.

[stevenho]

Do the effort to read the thread. He was talking specifically about HFC.

He was talking about frost being "always" outperformed quickly, which is both bullshit and not relating to HFC only.

[Torian kel]

Fire obviously primary but for secondary def Arcane. Frost ALWAYS has had a habit of falling far behind the other two. Frost right now compared to fire is a million miles behind and before pre-patch it was a million miles behind Arc/Fire. No mythic raider worth his weight in salt ever used Frost in HFC once they had heroic+ gear. I liked Frost but given legion and the artifacts I know i'd be waiting my time with it. So Arc will be my 2nd.

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Why would haste be better for fire over mastery? Mastery helps with ignites and because we spend most of our time doing insta casts...I don't see how haste can be better the mastery.

As usual Xires talks out of his ass. I unfortunately have to agree with Curnivore on this, I was in the 44th world guild, and progressed HFC 7/7 for weeks (I left after Arch kill in september), and frost was heavily used, especially on Archimonde M progress, to the point I was fully enchanted and gemmed multistrike. I also always used frost on Velhari and Mannoroth, and sometimes on other fights like Socrethar / High Council. Frost outperformed Arcane on nearly every fight including ST fights while the ring was being built up, and even when the first rings started to popup.

Then a few mages in top guilds figured out how to fucking cheese fights with this god awful arcane spec and rolling RNG dice on PoF procs on crystal, and before you knew it every garbage mage in the world was playing Arcane on every fight even when I was still outperforming them with my frost spec because I fucking hate RNG.

So yeah, you have no fucking clue what you're talking about, when you get your Arch heroic kill ten months after the raid comes out should just let people that know what they're talking about teach you.

[Deleted]

Either they change how AP works or you can't have an offspec. Which I really, really hate. And no I don't want to spend AP on offspec if I can increase my dps by 0.1%

[Deleted]

So yeah, you have no fucking clue what you're talking about, when you get your Arch heroic kill ten months after the raid comes out should just let people that know what they're talking about teach you.

fyi, when you get a kill has nothing to do with how knowledgable you are about a class, just means you had more time to spend to get the kill, well for the most part atleast.

but with that said, im also going to make frost my offspec coz imo its the least aids ridden spec of the 2 but tbh i cant see myself ever using frost or arcane coz fire is so much more fun.

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Either they change how AP works or you can't have an offspec. Which I really, really hate. And no I don't want to spend AP on offspec if I can increase my dps by 0.1%

you can most certainly have an offspec with the way AP works atm but ofc it will be behind your main spec as it should but i can see your point bcoz when they finely tune a spec and ppl start to gravitate towards the spec that might theoretically be a few percentages better then it would be nice to be able to move the AP you've put into 1 spec and put them into another spec but in a situation like that it would be in blizz' best interest to keep the specs somewhat level or give ppl a free AP respec.

[Deleted]

when you get a kill has nothing to do with how knowledgable you are about a class, just means you had more time to spend to get the kill

It's called ad hominem and it's a textbook case of a logical fallacy.

[Deleted]

How can you find simcraft pointless to draw conclusions from and then in the same statement draw conclusions on stat priorities?

Because he overdramatizing and generalising.
Meh, i disagree with stevenho about this, but also with those that give similiar warning about Beta field experience and results or say just wait.
It's just a matter of knowing in what context that set information is valubale.

But If i have to guess of all the 3 specs Fire Legion simcraft is probably more reliable than of the other 2 as it gets much more attention from the community.

Steven is right about frost........But I read it more over the timespawn of WoW. Partly because of interpreting how what he said was is true. Similiar to what you said about frost being good. This is were steven did do deduction basing it on what timespan this was the case.

Havn't been seriously raiding in Hellfire when it was relevant. But in Highmaul and BRF WoD frost wasnt bad and was a lot of fun. Yet it wasn't a great option. It had moments but Going with Fire and Arcane filled all the needed dps archetypes better than frost and another spec. But it was mostly because it also flowed more naturally if you focused on gearing for skill, those rating you got fit arcane better than frost.
This was a really weird way of how a spec can be weaker than the others......Suprising situation but also interesting to see it in a different way.

[Cracked]

I don't even know what this debate is about, spec you choose for progress has nothing to do with how it does in some shitty simcraft scenario (unless for some reason you believe it's better just because some program said so, in which case you should research your class more and experiment.. and use your brain a little).

[stevenho]

I think it is important to remember that offspecs will be 1-2 weeks behind mainspecs in AP progression so it really isn't a big deal outside of a small group of world 1st race guilds.

[Ivalen]

I think it is important to remember that offspecs will be 1-2 weeks behind mainspecs in AP progression so it really isn't a big deal outside of a small group of world 1st race guilds.

I think it's important to remember that Fire Mages appear to be treated the same way Warlocks were treated when they were deliberately OP for 6-8 months due to low population. Blizzard heard the 'fire spec not viable until late in to the expac' and wanted them great right out of the shoot.

I'd say we have until patch 7.3 to enjoy our new found power - which based on Blizzards inertia to class balance could be a while. So enjoy it while you can.

[Deleted]

I think it's important to remember that Fire Mages appear to be treated the same way Warlocks were treated when they were deliberately OP for 6-8 months due to low population. Blizzard heard the 'fire spec not viable until late in to the expac' and wanted them great right out of the shoot.

When the artifacts were first announced and described I remember Watcher saying "you really have to play the Fire artifact questline, it's great!". At that point I suspected he knew something we don't and that the spec will be popular for a while. I'm not sure if it's only the low popularity statistics that drove them here because we also have some major mechanical changes this time.

Namely, it's the first time after many years that they don't have to balance the hell of the Ignite+Combustion interaction of the past. They may actually want people to move from other specs and into this new more predictable to play and design spec.

[Deleted]

you can most certainly have an offspec with the way AP works atm but ofc it will be behind your main spec as it should but i can see your point bcoz when they finely tune a spec and ppl start to gravitate towards the spec that might theoretically be a few percentages better then it would be nice to be able to move the AP you've put into 1 spec and put them into another spec but in a situation like that it would be in blizz' best interest to keep the specs somewhat level or give ppl a free AP respec.

Yep, imho the best choice would be to allow AP respec for a high amount of gold (5k or something like that). With the current model my "mage" is now a "fire mage" and nothing more and that feels bad.