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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Actually, if there is only one Legion, and infinite realities, then the Legion cannot possibly win.
    Hmm, I seem to remember that is exactly what Kairozdormu was thinking when he brought Garrosh to Draenor. This unfortunately is exactly why we have this expansion... Without Alternate Gul'Dan... the Legion would have no one to open the portal on Azeroth.

    But, This kind of thinking that. "Infinite" realities would be powerful enough to stop the legion, is why the "infinite" dragon flight exists. I suspect based on how they talk, they probably have witnessed many realities fall to demons, (or old gods? or both?). However, I feel like somehow our "prime" timeline is important, because the demons are very intent on getting at it. Specifically the World-Soul of Azeroth. (which maybe doesnt exist outside the prime timeline?) (Titans are singular beings I believe, there are not many Aman'Thuls... )

    From the lore, it seems the Demons want to destroy Azeroth... because it is corrupted by the old gods. Sargeras wants to prevent its birth, because it will become some kind of All powerful Void God.

    Its entirely likely the end of WoW will be the apocalypse... followed by a nearly endless battle against Azeroth, as it tries to end the universe. Probably inside it on its surface etc. It will probably become some combination of the old gods, Like all of them at once. Who knows. it would be pretty epic to think about.
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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Creamy Flames View Post
    That's good to know. And does explain some things or prevent some thigns at least.
    except thats not true. they can, it just takes way longer. the only thing preventing sargeras from cutting azeroth in haof is azeroth is very very very far away/he doesnt know where it is.

    sargeras is like the lazy guy waiting for a summons
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    If you want to stick to it, here's a question: if there is only 1 Burning Legion, with a single Archimonde, KJ and Sargeras, and almost close to infinite amount of pararell/alternate universes, we've got a single Burning Legion needing to destroy not only our Azeroth, but Azeroth of each of those universes. Good luck with that, guys.
    I think people, including me, has tried to answer this question multiple times already. I (we) am not too sure of how WC-verse work (as we haven't gotten that much information about it), so I can't guarantee the answer must be what Blizzard intended. However, it could have been implied in "Illidan" that when the Legion damage / kill something in the main universe (ours), it'd affect the fate of that "something" in the alternate universes as well. For example: how Vandel's son turned out dead in all alternate universe in an infinity different of ways (didn't even mentioned that all those deaths were under the Legion's hand), or how all the multitudes of near infinite worlds narrowed down into just a few as the results of deaths caused by the Legion.

    I don't know much about DC / Marvel-verse, but this explanation seems to be similar to what might have been implied
    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    Not when our Azeroth seems to be the Prime Time. It's the exact same thing as DC Comics, there is one Earth that supports the entire multiverse.
    There, they (the Legion) destroy the main universe, and there goes all other alternate universe due to some unknown cosmic mechanics. Suddenly, the goal of the Legion isn't so hard to obtain anymore?

    Not saying that it must be the answer Blizzard is aiming for (since we have no clue after all), but it could be. We can't just flat out call the Legion's goal an impossibility if there exists a possible answer for it.
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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Yep that is the most crucial flaw, just get around twelve Azeroths to unite their armies and invade the nether, anyone but sargeras would be utterly screwed.

    Besides this obvious flaw, they have a finite amount of troops for an infinite amount of universes, making the crusade impossible.
    demons are constantly spawning in the nether and so far we havent seen any beings capable of fighting sargeras when he personally shows up some place except azeroth maybe if n'zoth doesnt corrupt her first
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

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  5. #45
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by raionyx View Post
    Unless there's only actually one and killing him sends his disembodied spirit back to the nether until he can be resummoned again in a physical body? Perhaps we can assume that the death of any demon outside the Nether results in something like a ghost that just waits in the Twisting Nether without being able to do anything? Theory for me is that joining the Legion (specifically) binds you this way to the Nether, such that you can reappear whenever you're summoned, despite there being alternate realities? THe Nether itself would function as a sort of staging ground into multiple realities and have its own separate timeline that remains constant, or at least aligned with our MU Azeroth timeline.

    The audio drama constantly references "The first Gul'dan" etc; these events happened YEARS ago in the Azeroth timeline. We also know little about the functions of the Twisting Nether, outside of it being the binding agent for worlds and dimensions. However, in WoD we kill Archimonde IN the Twisting Nether (a.k.a Nether Banish phase), so is this Archimonde's final end?

    The alternate timeline of WoD being an odd case because perhaps it was particularly chosen for its differences? There is definitely a difference between alternate TIMELINE and alternate REALITY. And besides, any reality the Legion invades and WINS is ultimately pointless to explore anyway. Our timeline/reality is important because we have resisted the Legion in the past and pushed them out of our world. You could assume there are already countless worlds where they have invaded and won. And if there is only ONE Burning Legion, they have to focus on us as the front of an ongoing war.
    Yes, Archimonde is dead. That is the canon. That's how you kill a demon, in the Twisting Nether or a region saturated with demonic power.

    Yes, that timeline was chosen because it fit the best. There were the right deviations and the least amount of wrong deviations. That implies there were a lot of other alternatives that weren't right.
    Others have resisted as well. In Chronicle it's mentioend that some worlds have succeeded in winning maybe once or twice, but the Legion always comes back and eventually you lose.
    If there is only one BL and they can destroy more realities than our own, that's really bad news for us. It really implies the breadth and width of their power and reach.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    demons are constantly spawning in the nether and so far we havent seen any beings capable of fighting sargeras when he personally shows up some place except azeroth maybe if n'zoth doesnt corrupt her first
    Not all demons are part of the burning legion and killing the most powerful agents, will put a considerable dent into their ability to operate, leaving time for others worlds to reach a level at which they can actually resist the legion, for example just eradicate the eredar and the legion structure would be crippled for quite some time.

  7. #47
    High Overlord kerghan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Concequence View Post
    However, I feel like somehow our "prime" timeline is important, because the demons are very intent on getting at it. Specifically the World-Soul of Azeroth. (which maybe doesnt exist outside the prime timeline?) (Titans are singular beings I believe, there are not many Aman'Thuls... )

    From the lore, it seems the Demons want to destroy Azeroth... because it is corrupted by the old gods. Sargeras wants to prevent its birth, because it will become some kind of All powerful Void God.
    This actually makes the most sense of all the theories.
    - The "Main" universe is the one that has a world soul. That's the timeline that is important.
    - Not all world souls are in the same reality
    - The Twisting Nether unifies them all. It's the "blank space" between, the "glue".
    - Void Lords and Titans (and by extension the Legion via Sargeras) occupy the Nether naturally.
    - The original mission of the Titans, Void Lords, and now the Legion is to find all of the world souls and awaken / corrupt / burn-purge them. This requires sifting through all possible realities, which takes... Literally... Forever.
    - The Aspects were created by a Titan to protect Azeroth. Specifically MU Azeroth; so the Bronze and Infinite can use tools from alternates if they need to (Blackmoore), but ultimately it's the outcome of ours that counts, and the outcome that resists the Legion the longest that is the "best".
    - The Garnish / Iron Horde story is probably more on the level of personal power than Titanic, since nobody got reborn out of the Nether, and they're all copies, not singular entities. It was of most concern to us because it was an invasion of Azeroth.
    - AU Gul'Dan and the Legion are a union of convenience... When Garrosh / We altered the timeline from the "original lore", the Legion took more interest in the situation because it opened a new opportunity different from the previously established "dead end" it the First/Second War.

    Now the Legion has a new "in" on invading our world, and presumably the channel Gul'Dan is using to portal them in is more powerful than their options in the Third War... Perhaps more in line with the scale of the War of the Ancients.

    What we don't know much about is Argus. Why were the Eredar so advanced? Why did Sargeras choose their leaders to be his lieutenants? Did Argus have a world soul? AU Velen seems to imply he understands the multiverse better than most during the Shadowmoon quests, but ultimately he's not a Titan and not a singular being (as Archi and KJ appear to have become), and his sacrifice is for a very "local" reason. Likely there are no "good" A/KJ's because once they went Legion, all their duplicates ceased to be.
    Warning: this comment occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and advanced mathematics (which may be unsuitable for liberal-arts majors).
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Yep that is the most crucial flaw, just get around twelve Azeroths to unite their armies and invade the nether, anyone but sargeras would be utterly screwed.

    Besides this obvious flaw, they have a finite amount of troops for an infinite amount of universes, making the crusade impossible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post

    There, they (the Legion) destroy the main universe, and there goes all other alternate universe due to some unknown cosmic mechanics. Suddenly, the goal of the Legion isn't so hard to obtain anymore?

    Not saying that it must be the answer Blizzard is aiming for (since we have no clue after all), but it could be. We can't just flat out call the Legion's goal an impossibility if there exists a possible answer for it.
    Actually, this is kinda answered within the Illidan book itself when Valden is having his visions after consuming the demon's blood/heart.

    It says that Burning Crusade is "crusading" in every it can, because everytime it destroys, it shortens the ammount of possibilities within the cosmos itself.

    It's almost exactly like Marvel did the whole Multiverse+Secret Wars thing. By destroying each timeline, it resulted in the overal spam of the multiverse getting shorter and shorter, until only 1 universe remained (the Main one), and once that's destroyed, it's finally over.


    A titanic vision smashed into his brain. This time he saw not just one universe but a near infinity of them, a complex fractal structure, where new worlds were born each minute from the decisions made a hearbeat before.
    Everywhere the Burning Legion marched, destroying world after world. Each death narrowed the range of possible worlds, till eventually all the multitude of possibilities narrowed to but a few.
    Suddenly, one day, 99.7% of the Lich King's death knights broke free.
    Clearly, the lich king was keylogged

  9. #49
    There probably isn't an infinite number of realities. They could simply say they are two realities; one which flows naturally and another which is bendable.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by kerghan View Post
    What we don't know much about is Argus. Why were the Eredar so advanced? Why did Sargeras choose their leaders to be his lieutenants? Did Argus have a world soul? AU Velen seems to imply he understands the multiverse better than most during the Shadowmoon quests, but ultimately he's not a Titan and not a singular being (as Archi and KJ appear to have become), and his sacrifice is for a very "local" reason. Likely there are no "good" A/KJ's because once they went Legion, all their duplicates ceased to be.
    Naaru is the answer to your last paragraph. Literally. The reason the Eredar are so advanced, which in turn made Sargeras choose them.

    Even the Shadow Priest Artifact comments on the whole "Did the Naaru ever tell you who they chose as their savior before the Draenei?" or something like that.
    Suddenly, one day, 99.7% of the Lich King's death knights broke free.
    Clearly, the lich king was keylogged

  11. #51
    Scarab Lord Triggered Fridgekin's Avatar
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    Just get the writers of Rick and Morty to work it out. They won't help with the time travel stuff though, that shit is literally on the shelf.
    A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Triggered Fridgekin View Post
    Just get the writers of Rick and Morty to work it out. They won't help with the time travel stuff though, that shit is literally on the shelf.
    I just thought of "Alien Invasion Tomato Monster Mexican Armada Brothers Who Are Just Regular Brothers Running In A Van From An Asteroid And All Sorts Of Things The Movie" featuring Kil'jaeden and Archimonde.
    Suddenly, one day, 99.7% of the Lich King's death knights broke free.
    Clearly, the lich king was keylogged

  13. #53
    The Legion are demons and as such have only one existence in the Twisting Nether. They are not ordinary mortals.

    On top of that, the BL does not possess the titan power of timetravelling which the bronze dragonflight recieved from a titan that had it. The only way they could pull time travelling off would be to corrupt members of the bronze dragonflight, which is something we might see in an upcoming expansion. An additional way to achieve this would be to discover and corrupt a dormant titan world, bringing forth a corrupted titan that would have the possibility to manipulate time.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2016-08-22 at 05:58 PM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    or how all the multitudes of near infinite worlds narrowed down into just a few as the results of deaths caused by the Legion.
    The Hour of Twilight was bound to happen in any Timeline as far as i know, Nozdormu looked into any alternate timelines and they all ended the same way.

    We basically cheated around that by bringing in the Dragon Soul from another timeline but the Old Gods pretty much made a coventional defeat of Deathwing impossible.

    I think something similiar could be used there, but the problem is simply the interaction of demons with the multiverse, the Draenor AU is the best example, Gul'dan was contacted by KJ way before it was even known that Garrosh will arrive on this timeline and that this Draenor might be used to Invade MU Azeroth.

    KJ should be basically hooking up Gul'dans in any Timeline, Mannoroth constantly offering his blood to any Orcs, Archimonde dying over and over at Hjyal.

    This is where shit hits the fan, if any AU wants to have even a close to similiar story to the MU, you need demon interaction, else history would turn out quite different.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yzak View Post
    I think the simplest way in explaining it is to consider the Twisting Nether as the binding agent of ALL realities in the Warcraft universe. And the Legion is really adept at traversing it.

    Moreover, the Bronze Dragons; and all dragons for that matter, have lost their powers, or at least a substantial part of their powers since Cataclysm.
    Apparently Dragons are mortal now since when you kill DW, you see a cutscene where they say that they will see the world "with mortal eyes now" and they lose the cool eyeglowing power thing they had.
    "It's not what we don't know that gets us into trouble; it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." ~ Mark Twain
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by drivec View Post
    Id like to think there are not infinite realities in wow. only a few that have split off from the main timeline due to time travel.
    Sorry, but they already said there are. That was the Wrathion plan. Wrathion was working with Garrosh and Kairoz to visit many other timelines(realities) in order to build his own legion to fight the Burning Legion. Problem was at the first stop Garrosh killed Kairoz and took the means to do what they had planned.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Creamy Flames View Post
    Fuck, I didn't even consider that... That's a whole new level of shit. It makes no sense there'd be 2 Velen and not 2 more Archimonde and KJ when even in the WoD reality, that reality's KJ and Archi also joined the BL... Fuck.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I can imagine it. That's not even the issue. It seems your own comprehension is the problem here, not mine. The problems are the giant holes it creates in the story that I need explained, that you so handily seem incapable of responding to.
    I said in another thread recently and this one guy was like "No no that's not how it works" but technically if there's only 1 KJ and infinite Velens, KJ was MASSIVELY obsessed with vengeance on Velen so basically he will never get vengeance since there are infinite Velens.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Spray View Post
    In both timelines known to us Kil'jaeden and Archimonde got corrupted with Sargeras' offer of power. Now, if Sargeras and the BL can transcend all timelines and realities, then Sargeras' reach for those two could affect all the timelines in the same time. Once KJ and Archie got infused with demonic powers, they became attuned to Twisting Nether, its reality and all the rules that come with it. (potentially effectively merging the "AU" and "MU" and any other versions into one being)

    Does it sound teeeeny-tiny bit far-fetched? Yes, but it will definitely be cleared up in the Chronicles.
    Not really since Chronicle already passed that point in history. Chronicle is a timeline.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    The Legion are demons and as such have only one existence in the Twisting Nether. They are not ordinary mortals.

    On top of that, the BL does not possess the titan power of timetravelling which the bronze dragonflight recieved from a titan that had it. The only way they could pull time travelling off would be to corrupt members of the bronze dragonflight, which is something we might see in an upcoming expansion. An additional way to achieve this would be to discover and corrupt a dormant titan world, bringing forth a corrupted titan that would have the possibility to manipulate time.
    Wrathion and Garrosh traveled through time without Bronze powers. Granted they took a bronze with them, but mostly for navigation, since the bronze can't time travel. In summary, you are wrong.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The Hour of Twilight was bound to happen in any Timeline as far as i know, Nozdormu looked into any alternate timelines and they all ended the same way.

    We basically cheated around that by bringing in the Dragon Soul from another timeline but the Old Gods pretty much made a coventional defeat of Deathwing impossible.

    I think something similiar could be used there, but the problem is simply the interaction of demons with the multiverse, the Draenor AU is the best example, Gul'dan was contacted by KJ way before it was even known that Garrosh will arrive on this timeline and that this Draenor might be used to Invade MU Azeroth.

    KJ should be basically hooking up Gul'dans in any Timeline, Mannoroth constantly offering his blood to any Orcs, Archimonde dying over and over at Hjyal.

    This is where shit hits the fan, if any AU wants to have even a close to similiar story to the MU, you need demon interaction, else history would turn out quite different.
    Nope that Dragon Soul was from the same timeline. Basically once we were done with it, the Dragon Soul popped right back where it should be in time so nothing was really changed.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    Nope that Dragon Soul was from the same timeline. Basically once we were done with it, the Dragon Soul popped right back where it should be in time so nothing was really changed.
    Not the point.

    The Dragon Soul did not belong in the current time, we cheated fate, the whole point of the Charge of the Aspects story is that Nozdormu had to be convinced that he had to "change" the Timeline to preserve it.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiea View Post
    I think that at this point you just need to roll with whatever blizzard does, the moment they made an entire expansion based on time traveling they messed around with so many things.

    One of my favorite examples of where this does not make sense, is that if there is only 1 burning legion, AKA 1 Archimonde, 1 Kil'Jaeden, etc. Why is there 2 Velens and not a bunch of good Archimonde's and Kil'Jaeden. All three of these characters were of the same race in the same place in time. Maybe they will adress this in the future, but for now just play the game and enjoy the story, don't overthink it as it does not really make sense anymore.
    I'm not 100% sure of what I'm about to tell you. But as far as I know, the alternate universe are not necessarily different than our main universe. Basically, the events of Warlords of Draenor would have happened exactly as it happened in WarCraft 1,2,3 etc if not for Garrosh changing the future of the orcs. Prior to the orcs drinking the blood of Mannoroth, everything happened exactly the same way our universe happened. Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde were corrupted and Argus lost to the legion. The draenei lead by Velen escaped to Draenor, Gul'dan plan to destroy the draenei for KilJaeden still happened, the formation of the shadow council, etc. etc.. If not for Garrosh, that universe could have very well have been a perfect copycat of our universe.

    Alternate universe might not be the good term, it's a Red Alert type of story. Change 1 thing, and look at the whole history rewrite itself from that point forward.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Bisso View Post
    I'm not 100% sure of what I'm about to tell you. But as far as I know, the alternate universe are not necessarily different than our main universe. Basically, the events of Warlords of Draenor would have happened exactly as it happened in WarCraft 1,2,3 etc if not for Garrosh changing the future of the orcs. Prior to the orcs drinking the blood of Mannoroth, everything happened exactly the same way our universe happened. Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde were corrupted and Argus lost to the legion. The draenei lead by Velen escaped to Draenor, Gul'dan plan to destroy the draenei for KilJaeden still happened, the formation of the shadow council, etc. etc.. If not for Garrosh, that universe could have very well have been a perfect copycat of our universe.

    Alternate universe might not be the good term, it's a Red Alert type of story. Change 1 thing, and look at the whole history rewrite itself from that point forward.
    Not exactly true. Garrosh wasn't born in the AU. Ner'zhul didn't lose his wife in AU. There wouldn't be the whole Lich King thing because Ner'zhul would never be the first to be contacted by Kil'jaeden, and as such, wouldn't be the one to be turned into LK. The Frostwolf clan would most likely be eradicated by Blackhand, as they were attacked in the AU but "left alone" in the MU. Orgrim would most likely follow the Horde like he did in AU, except this time they'd be Fel Infused, so Orgrim would either drink it as well or be killed like he was in AU. And so on and so forth. The Legion's plan would most likely succeed in this AU just for the simple fact that this time, Gul'dan wouldn't betray the horde and leave with half it's force to look for the tomb of Sargeras on it's own, as it happend in our MU.
    Suddenly, one day, 99.7% of the Lich King's death knights broke free.
    Clearly, the lich king was keylogged

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I think something similiar could be used there, but the problem is simply the interaction of demons with the multiverse, the Draenor AU is the best example, Gul'dan was contacted by KJ way before it was even known that Garrosh will arrive on this timeline and that this Draenor might be used to Invade MU Azeroth.

    KJ should be basically hooking up Gul'dans in any Timeline, Mannoroth constantly offering his blood to any Orcs, Archimonde dying over and over at Hjyal.

    This is where shit hits the fan, if any AU wants to have even a close to similiar story to the MU, you need demon interaction, else history would turn out quite different.
    Is it an absolute must for all, or most, of other alternate universes to resemble ours in the sense that they have the interactions (bolded parts in the quote) between the Legion (as we know of), the Orcs, and us? I don't think so. AU Gul'dan might have contacted the Legion before, but they only sent Mannoroth to AU way after Garrosh's arrival (and actually sent him there 1 year earlier than they did in our MU). One may argue that it could be possible that the Legion wasn't going to bother with AU Draenor (or AUs in general) if they didn't detect Garrosh there. It's also possible that they might have sent some other demons instead, maybe a less important branch of the Legion. I admit that sounds a bit forced, but it isn't completely impossible.

    Edit: also, forgot about it, but Kalecgos the Spellweaver (the user btw, not the dragon) or someone with similar avatar brought up something I (somehow) didn't think about until recently. It's the theory that WC-verse might work similar to many other fiction's verses - that alternate universes and alternate timelines *might* not be the same thing. There might be infinite amount of universes, and each of them in turns consisted of infinite timelines of their own, presenting infinite possibilities of these universes. I can't think of anything wrong with this theory so far, and it'd explain plenty of things in regards to this issue.
    Last edited by Qualia; 2016-08-22 at 07:58 PM.
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang
    Donnons le sang de guillotine
    Pour guerir la secheresse de la guillotine
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang.

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