5 man raiding? Sorta-ish?

[nazrakin]

It all depends on the rewards. If the gear from Karazhan is good (perhaps 875+?) I think it'll be a huge success. If the gear is bad (like 850) I don't think it'll be well received.

875 is above heroic ED and only 5ilvls behind mythic, so I wouldn't expect it to be that high. My guess would be somewhere between Normal and heroic, so probably 860 or so, maybe a final boss that drops higher ilvl loot. Or, since there is no mythic+ mode, maybe we'll see some hard modes.

[stomination]

It all depends on the rewards. If the gear from Karazhan is good (perhaps 875+?) I think it'll be a huge success. If the gear is bad (like 850) I don't think it'll be well received.

And that would depend on how hard it is.

[Marston]

875 is above heroic ED and only 5ilvls behind mythic, so I wouldn't expect it to be that high. My guess would be somewhere between Normal and heroic, so probably 860 or so, maybe a final boss that drops higher ilvl loot. Or, since there is no mythic+ mode, maybe we'll see some hard modes.

This is also my take. Same itemlevel or a bit higher than Court of Stars/Arcway (so maybe around normal raiding) and the later bosses giving out items that are a bit higher, near heroic raiding. But since only a few bosses would drop that loot actually raiding heroic would still be more lucrative.

But hardmodes are actually a cool idea. Optional 5 man hardmodes that give either more or better gear.

[Enitzu]

While I love the idea of a 5 man raid, it would never work in concept. Having to balance around 3 dps and not being sure which dps they would be would mean that people will class stack the best ones. I love the large 5 man dungeons but I don't ever see 5 man raiding becoming a thing.

[Joeydivision82]

I can't be the only one that sees "5 man raiding" as a non-sequitur. I expect anything that is considered raiding to require complexity far beyond what is possible for a 5 man group in WoW.

Make 5 mans challenging? Certainly. Expect it to be at the level of 20 man mythic raiding? I don't see it.

With regards to 5 mans being challenging: I'm curious to see how its handled. I still, clearly, remember all the negative feedback dungeons and raids received at the beginning of Cata - they're too hard! If Legion happens to be the same way, I'm interested in seeing how long it lasts.

Why does everyone associate this post and Karazhan as a Mythic raid? Nowhere did I ever say that.

I was simply stating that it's called a Mythic dungeon because at heart that's what it is, but having originally been a raid and it being scaled down will it be leading into similar set ups?

I would never think a 5 man Kara would be tuned to the extent of a 20m Mythic raid.

[callipygoustp]

Why does everyone associate this post and Karazhan as a Mythic raid? Nowhere did I ever say that.

I was simply stating that it's called a Mythic dungeon because at heart that's what it is, but having originally been a raid and it being scaled down will it be leading into similar set ups?

I would never think a 5 man Kara would be tuned to the extent of a 20m Mythic raid.

Remove mythic from post you quoted and the comments still stand.

[Joeydivision82]

Blackrock depths was a long run as well. Some Bc dungeons also were longish.

BRD was also originally a 10m

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Mythic Dungeons still have (and Mythic+ Dungeon Keystones will have) a weekly lockout. Karazhan is described as a "mega dungeon," so it is larger than a regular dungeon on purpose - it is not going to replace the current raiding model. Do not forget that 7.1 (Return to Karazhan patch) will also include a "small" raid (talking about the number of bosses, not the actual group size of the raid).

And Blizzard has gone on record stating that players can still access the Karazhan raid, just like we can still access Outland through the Dark Portal (just talk to the bronze dragon at the north entrance to the Blasted Lands from the Swamp of Sorrows and set the Blasted Lands to pre-Warlords of Draenor).

When and where did I ever say or imply it will replace the current raiding model?

[Sylreick]

I like the concept of weekly lockout 5-mans that have more than your typical dungeon amount of bosses. But I'm hoping it isn't going to be the trend for all further 5-man content.

Kara seems like a solid deal, a lot of bosses and a weekly lock out, something you can run over the course of a few nights rather than rush through all at once. Have to wait and see how it turns out.

[Mad_Murdock]

The crying would never cease. Can you imagine the tears from the LFRtards because they can't queue for it... Wait that's already happening.

I'm in a raiding guild so running it on my main will not be a problem. But after that, when I get to alt number 3 and number 4, it will start to be a problem. Being a mega dungeon will make it a commitment of time or constant group hoping to finish up the bosses needed. While there are aspects about it I like, I think the sheer size and time requirement will make it pretty tough to pug run and we'll see a lot of half runs start becoming the standard.

So I disagree with making it Mythic only. I know the wannabe elitist who want to "keep out the baddies" love this whole notion, But that's not going to keep them out. But I guess the Anti-LFRtard people will get their rocks off by chain kicking people, because they'll have the power to do so.

[Thelin]

I like the concept of 5-man mythic/mythic+ and it provides me another avenue to get raid quality items without doing raid content. Don't get my wrong, I loved raiding but I just don't have the time to commit to it seriously like I did in the old days. It's also much easier to find 4 other people (that are good) and get going. I think they've already stated the mythic chest that you get once a week in legion will have the best gear that's pretty close (but not quite) to raid gear so I think that's a fair compromise.

[Tharkkun]

I'm in a raiding guild so running it on my main will not be a problem. But after that, when I get to alt number 3 and number 4, it will start to be a problem. Being a mega dungeon will make it a commitment of time or constant group hoping to finish up the bosses needed. While there are aspects about it I like, I think the sheer size and time requirement will make it pretty tough to pug run and we'll see a lot of half runs start becoming the standard.

So I disagree with making it Mythic only. I know the wannabe elitist who want to "keep out the baddies" love this whole notion, But that's not going to keep them out. But I guess the Anti-LFRtard people will get their rocks off by chain kicking people, because they'll have the power to do so.

With the time commitment for Kara you wouldn't want this to be using the dungeon finder. People would be dropping out left and right for various reasons which will make the experience much worse.

[RedNight at MMOC]

When and where did I ever say or imply it will replace the current raiding model?

Where did I say that you did?

[Mad_Murdock]

With the time commitment for Kara you wouldn't want this to be using the dungeon finder. People would be dropping out left and right for various reasons which will make the experience much worse.

Maybe, depends how hard it is. Going back to when they release ZA and ZG some of the earlier pug runs would go 2-2 1/2 hours. I guess it's a 2 edge sword. Folks leave, new person zones in and off we go. That person will get a partial run, which could be bad for them. I'll admit I've grown lazy. The thought of having to run back out to summon people isn't very appealing. Alliance have it pretty easy to get there, Horde not so much.

I kinda don't like this model as it will promote 5 man cliques inside of guilds and in turn that leads to drama when there isn't an effort to rotate people in and out, which will lead to people having to pug it. While I'm not oppose to the their being a mythic version, I still think a que-able heroic version should be an option. Guess we'll see how it plays out.

[wheresmywoft]

I re-subbed, and bought legions solely because of this announcement. Super excited. Huge throwback to better times.

My personal feel on the distinction between dungeon and raiding is really the size of the party. Vanilla pre MC dungeons would probably qualify as raids in today's standards. As a 5-man, this would be a 5-man mythic dungeon, even though it is a re-vamp of a raid. Regardless of lockout time.

[Fritters154]

Apparently Karazhan is gonna be a Mythic only 5 man with a weekly lockout.

How does everyone feel about this?

I wouldn't expect raiding as a whole to switch to this method, but it gives small groups of friends who don't have time to commit to a full on raid a chance to get a raid environment going.

This isn't raiding or even really close to raiding. Kara is simply a mythic only 5 man with the typical mythic dungeon lockout (1 week). It's like how the ZG and ZA dungeons that got remastered in Cata were heroic only because making a normal difficulty version made little sense for a mid tier dungeon. The same goes for Legion dungeons except now we have the Mythic mode so Blizz can make the design choice of forcing people to use Group Finder instead of LFG to go to Kara.

Blizz is trying to bring back some of the actual grouping that LFR and LFG has heavily reduced. The one aspect that is like raiding here is that actual grouping is needed, which even normal dungeons had before LFG.

[schwank05]

I don't have time to commit to a raid schedule any more, so this is perfect for me. Just as Mythic 5 mans were great. I have always preferred 5 man content to raids anyway. The fact that it's going to be Kara is even better as this is the only raid that I could still be running as progression to this day and never get sick of it.

[Archibalde]

With the time commitment for Kara you wouldn't want this to be using the dungeon finder. People would be dropping out left and right for various reasons which will make the experience much worse.

They would most likely split the instance into multiple wings like they do with Maraudon and Blackrock Depths.

[purebalance]

I'd argue the difficulty progression in MC+, which Kara won't contain according to the Slootbag interview, is more akin to raiding, in difficulty scale if nothing else, though the scale is clearly smaller.
It's clear that they like the idea of 5-man content as a valid progression path, but I think the 5 man aspect is what defines it as a dungeon rather than a raid. That seems to be how they view it anyway, given the announcement of a 9 boss 5 man as a dungeon, when Emerald Nightmare has 7 bosses.

No it's clear the opposite since they flat out said that M+ is not supposed to give much great gear. They flat out said basically that raiding in raids is still and will be their intended progression.

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I don't have time to commit to a raid schedule any more, so this is perfect for me. Just as Mythic 5 mans were great. I have always preferred 5 man content to raids anyway. The fact that it's going to be Kara is even better as this is the only raid that I could still be running as progression to this day and never get sick of it.

You no longer need to commit to a raid schedule. I cleared heroic BRF without a raid schedule. Many others have. I've been lazy with HFC, but I can easily do the same.

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I re-subbed, and bought legions solely because of this announcement. Super excited. Huge throwback to better times.

My personal feel on the distinction between dungeon and raiding is really the size of the party. Vanilla pre MC dungeons would probably qualify as raids in today's standards. As a 5-man, this would be a 5-man mythic dungeon, even though it is a re-vamp of a raid. Regardless of lockout time.

So you resubbed because they did the same thing they did in Cata? I mean we already have seen this done once with 2 raids. ZA/ZG ring a bell? This is nothing innovative or new. This is basically like having demon hunters and Illidan: cash grab from people like you who are tricked by it.

[Tharkkun]

They would most likely split the instance into multiple wings like they do with Maraudon and Blackrock Depths.

It's Mythic only. There will be no dungeon finder.

[Thelin]

This isn't raiding or even really close to raiding. Kara is simply a mythic only 5 man with the typical mythic dungeon lockout (1 week). It's like how the ZG and ZA dungeons that got remastered in Cata were heroic only because making a normal difficulty version made little sense for a mid tier dungeon. The same goes for Legion dungeons except now we have the Mythic mode so Blizz can make the design choice of forcing people to use Group Finder instead of LFG to go to Kara.

Blizz is trying to bring back some of the actual grouping that LFR and LFG has heavily reduced. The one aspect that is like raiding here is that actual grouping is needed, which even normal dungeons had before LFG.

Mythic/Mythic+ with keystones can certainly feel like ''raid quality'' its all in the eyes of the beholder. I was a hardcore raider up until Ulduar and then I burnt out and quit for a long time. My schedule won't permit me to ever seriously raid again so these 5 man options are perfectly fine. I'd consider something like Karazhan to be on par with what the ICC heroics became. If they came out more that was original UBRS/LBRS/Dire maul (3 areas) style where it was an extended 5 man like Karazhan would be I think that's a great track for them to head for the more casual person who still wants to get better gear outside of LFR.