I'm worried rogue's low aoe will exclude them from keystone mythic runs

[nightmann]

2 specs right off the bat, sub and assassin, will probably not be invited to mythic key runs due to zero aoe effectiveness. I don't know about outlaw because I haven't really toyed around with it but I would guess that this fact alone will funnel everyone into outlaw and screw anyone that didn't have the foresight. Especially since mythic 10+ gives mythic raid gear equivalency.

[Deleted]

Then play Outlaw. Not every spec is designed to do everything.

[nightmann]

Is their aoe good?

[Galbrei]

Well if the artifact catching up mechanics Blizzard mentioned work as well as they're supposed to you could always switch to Outlaw to do M+. Either way it's still too soon to say rogues have low AoE, it might get better with artifact talents and lvl110 stats.

[araine]

the solution we always hear when folks think others req is too high, make your own group. and you can set whatever rules you want

[Rothg]

2 specs right off the bat, sub and assassin, will probably not be invited to mythic key runs due to zero aoe effectiveness. I don't know about outlaw because I haven't really toyed around with it but I would guess that this fact alone will funnel everyone into outlaw and screw anyone that didn't have the foresight. Especially since mythic 10+ gives mythic raid gear equivalency.

I play Shadow and Retribution and all three rogue specs have better AoE than both my options. You're good fam.

[Dys]

Just make friends with 2 classes that can do good aoe and run mythic+ with them. That way, they can wreck shit for you on the way to the boss so you can wreck shit there.

Or make friends in general. This game is a lot better with friends.

[GT4]

I play Shadow and Retribution and all three rogue specs have better AoE than both my options. You're good fam.

Last time I checked on beta, ret was easily above sub and assa for AoE. Wake of ashes alone does 1300% of AP as AoE every 30 seconds. Taking sub, for example, shuriken storm does 165% of AP during stealth/shadow dance so a sub rogue would have to use ~8 shuriken storms with shadow dance up just to equal a single wake of ashes. Now add divine storm (which is also improved by two major artifact traits) and some of the talent options and ret easily wins against any sub rogue when it comes to AoE.

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Just make friends with 2 classes that can do good aoe and run mythic+ with them. That way, they can wreck shit for you on the way to the boss so you can wreck shit there.

Or make friends in general. This game is a lot better with friends.

That'd make sense if there weren't classes/specs with basically the same single target DPS and strong AoE at the same time. Outlaw itself is even if not better for single target (compared to assa/sub) and offers decent AoE, fire mages offer comparable single target and great AoE, BM hunters offer comparable single target and great AoE, etc.

If you really want to push, you'll take three of those classes/specs unless there's one class/spec that absolutely decimates others for single target.

[Tojara]

Contrary to popular belief you don't need your entire group to do insane AoE.

I think a lot of groups are designing themselves to have some really strong single target specs and with somebody else who carries AoE.

A lot of this has to do with bosses having more health with a scaling system and actually being alive longer compared to CMs in past expansion. Also some affixes at the higher levels want you to focus some mobs down as opposed to blindly AoE.

[nightmann]

Contrary to popular belief you don't need your entire group to do insane AoE.

I think a lot of groups are designing themselves to have some really strong single target specs and with somebody else who carries AoE.

A lot of this has to do with bosses having more health with a scaling system and actually being alive longer compared to CMs in past expansion. Also some affixes at the higher levels want you to focus some mobs down as opposed to blindly AoE.

Contrary to popular belief, you don't need to have a group 15 ilvls higher than the gear the raid drops, does that stop it from being the absolute norm in every pug? No. Just like only taking strong burst aoe will be the absolute norm for mythic key runs. Is it required, no. Will it be the norm, yes.

[Wow]

Well if the artifact catching up mechanics Blizzard mentioned work as well as they're supposed to you could always switch to Outlaw to do M+. Either way it's still too soon to say rogues have low AoE, it might get better with artifact talents and lvl110 stats.

There are no artifact catch up's for people actually playing the game from the start. Yes it will be easier to get more ap as ak goes up but you are still choosing to spend that on your non main artifact not really catching anything up.

[Lex Icon]

i'm not a PvEr so pardon my ignorance but isn't M+ supposed to not just be an aoe fest?

[Ealyssa]

There are no artifact catch up's for people actually playing the game from the start.

That's actually 100% wrong. Artifact knowledge will stack the same for everyone as soon as they strat researching it.

Meaning that the longer you wait, the easier it will be to put points in your alt weapon.

basic exemple (not exact number, but still exactly how it will work) :

for the same weapon at same level :

week 1 : you'll need 5 daily quest for 1 artifact talent
week 15 : 1 daily will give you enough for 6 artifact talent

When you'll be at a point where 1 point in your main weapon may give you 10+ on your alt artifact it's an easy choice if you actually want/need that second spec.

[shaunika123]

a:

you can make an 85% outlaw wep with 14 points in it (13340 AP which isnt much at all)

b:

sub's AOE and cleave is decent and assa's cleave is also decent and their ST is great

c: mythic+ isnt CM, it's not about pulling 50 billion mobs and AOEing them down quickly

you'll usually be cleaving 4-5 mobs at a time and a lot of the time you have to burst down one of them with ST damage

so yeah sub and assa will be fine in mythic+ they may not be the absolute best spec there, but they're good enough.

[plato13]

Assa actually has decent aoe on medium groups. Just spam fok and rupture/hemo everything.

[Reiziger]

Seems like every class and specc is making a "I am shit now" thread, so you should be fine.

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But then people worry nobody will want to group with a leader who has "the wrong" class and specc....

the way the keystone mechanic works people will still group with you even if you have a crappy spec. Iirc grouping with new people is the only way to get extra loot after you have your own keystone used for the week. Which means the hardcore people who want to gear up as fast as possible are actually stimulated to carry 'nubs' so they can get extra chances for gear (which they will want to, considering their drive to be as best gear as possible)

[GT4]

That sounds like a good thing...or a creative solution to a problem. Which Blizzard does well IMHO.

Actually that's not a solution but almost more of a problem. Because of how keystones work, you really want to make sure you push each one as high as you can so bringing a sub-par DPS will lower your own loot. That means people won't be taking sub-optimal classes for their own keystones. If you're a sub-optimal class/spec and don't have friends/a guild to run with, you'll most likely only be able to get a group to run your own keystone which means you get 1/5th of the loot (outside of the weekly chest) of a player who runs every keystone in their party and even less than one that runs other players' keystones.

Here's an example:
Let's assume you're playing sub rogue and sub rogue is a bad DPS.
When looking for parties, nobody will want to take you for their own keystones because it means they potentially lose loot by not being able to push as high.
The only parties you'll find will be a) ones that use your keystone or b) very casual ones that don't push high anyway.
That means when it comes to high ilevel loot, you're pretty much limited to the loot you get from your one keystone.

Let's assume another player is playing a fire mage and fire mage is still the best Mythic+ DPS.
When looking for parties, everybody will want to take you for their own keystones because it means they maximize their chances of getting as much loot as possible because they're more likely to push high.
In addition to that, you'll easily find a group that runs all keystones in that group (= 5).
Subsequently that player will easily get 5 or more keystones worth of high ilevel loot.

[GT4]

Sooo..how many people will it affect to the point that you are excluded? I mean...these analysis make it sound like mythic + becomes like a segregated cult where at the end of the day there will be only one group of the 5 best players worldwide does it ^^

Have you done any PUG content in the past? You'll see way more ridiculous requirements there (no <list of specs>, ilevel <30 above what actually drops in the dungeon/raid they're looking for>+, etc.) even though there's much less of an incentive. If a raid cannot kill a boss, you can just restart and/or replace some players. If a mythic+ dungeon is failed, that keystone is depleted and you won't get loot until you upgrade it (= you lose at least one chest of loot).

If you seriously believe that players will be more lenient for mythic+ than for any content in the past, you'll be in for a rude awakening.

Edit: I forgot mentioning that people have already started seeing this on beta. Some specs have a really hard time finding higher mythic+ groups there.

[nightmann]

Actually that's not a solution but almost more of a problem. Because of how keystones work, you really want to make sure you push each one as high as you can so bringing a sub-par DPS will lower your own loot. That means people won't be taking sub-optimal classes for their own keystones. If you're a sub-optimal class/spec and don't have friends/a guild to run with, you'll most likely only be able to get a group to run your own keystone which means you get 1/5th of the loot (outside of the weekly chest) of a player who runs every keystone in their party and even less than one that runs other players' keystones.

Here's an example:
Let's assume you're playing sub rogue and sub rogue is a bad DPS.
When looking for parties, nobody will want to take you for their own keystones because it means they potentially lose loot by not being able to push as high.
The only parties you'll find will be a) ones that use your keystone or b) very casual ones that don't push high anyway.
That means when it comes to high ilevel loot, you're pretty much limited to the loot you get from your one keystone.

Let's assume another player is playing a fire mage and fire mage is still the best Mythic+ DPS.
When looking for parties, everybody will want to take you for their own keystones because it means they maximize their chances of getting as much loot as possible because they're more likely to push high.
In addition to that, you'll easily find a group that runs all keystones in that group (= 5).
Subsequently that player will easily get 5 or more keystones worth of high ilevel loot.

This is exactly what is going to happen. What spec do you recommend for rogues?

[Kragragh]

Actually that's not a solution but almost more of a problem. Because of how keystones work, you really want to make sure you push each one as high as you can so bringing a sub-par DPS will lower your own loot. That means people won't be taking sub-optimal classes for their own keystones. If you're a sub-optimal class/spec and don't have friends/a guild to run with, you'll most likely only be able to get a group to run your own keystone which means you get 1/5th of the loot (outside of the weekly chest) of a player who runs every keystone in their party and even less than one that runs other players' keystones.

Here's an example:
Let's assume you're playing sub rogue and sub rogue is a bad DPS.
When looking for parties, nobody will want to take you for their own keystones because it means they potentially lose loot by not being able to push as high.
The only parties you'll find will be a) ones that use your keystone or b) very casual ones that don't push high anyway.
That means when it comes to high ilevel loot, you're pretty much limited to the loot you get from your one keystone.

Let's assume another player is playing a fire mage and fire mage is still the best Mythic+ DPS.
When looking for parties, everybody will want to take you for their own keystones because it means they maximize their chances of getting as much loot as possible because they're more likely to push high.
In addition to that, you'll easily find a group that runs all keystones in that group (= 5).
Subsequently that player will easily get 5 or more keystones worth of high ilevel loot.

I think you're missing his point; his point is that after they're done with their keystones/friends, they might run it with other, non-optimal specs, for the extra loot. Which is beneficial for you, as a non-optimal spec, to have someone well-geared with you.