[BETA] Destruction Warlock Discussion

[Uzkin]

Yup, Destruction was only ever actually complex in cataclysm, and there was broad underperformance and outrage because of it. I am one of the few people who posts here regularly who actually loved cataclysm destro, so it's laughable to me to see the same people who whined about ISF and shadowflame now whine about lack of complexity. Simple, complex, either can be fun and engaging. But if the grass is always greener, the problem is behind the keyboard, not with blizzard

Cataclysm-era destro certainly had sh*tloads of buttons to press, but every single one of them was very weak. Lots of effort without feeling rewarding at all. Complexity is fine as long as you get some reward from it. But that was not the case here-- due to the general weakness of all those different spells, Cata destro had no way to shine in any fight, except perhaps Morchok/Korchom -- which was a meaningless easy intro fight. Cata demonology, in contrast, was at least slightly rewarding in its complexity; if you got the prepull gearswap Moonwell Chalice pre-soulburn petswap opening shenanigans with its 20+ different action buttons just right you were rewarded with an awesome dps for the first couple of minutes, which was great for farm-status heroic Ultraxion, for example.

[Deleted]

Cata demonology

Triggered. They made me play that horrifying piece of shit spec on Spine. /shudder

Never again.

[Purpleisbetter]

Cataclysm-era destro certainly had sh*tloads of buttons to press, but every single one of them was very weak. Lots of effort without feeling rewarding at all. Complexity is fine as long as you get some reward from it. But that was not the case here-- due to the general weakness of all those different spells, Cata destro had no way to shine in any fight, except perhaps Morchok/Korchom -- which was a meaningless easy intro fight. Cata demonology, in contrast, was at least slightly rewarding in its complexity; if you got the prepull gearswap Moonwell Chalice pre-soulburn petswap opening shenanigans with its 20+ different action buttons just right you were rewarded with an awesome dps for the first couple of minutes, which was great for farm-status heroic Ultraxion, for example.

TFW ISF ran off, you wait for a while, 0 procs from the imp, you hard cast soul fire, minus 3, 2,1, half a second almost done...AND PROC! useless instant SF.


Cata Demo had like half a hour opener, mastery equip swaps included. Once the initial onslaught was over, there was really nothing but to pray on impending doom procs.
Btw, Dragon Soul and Warlock i think was one of the worst thing i've ever had to deal with as a WoW player. At the 3rd night chain wiping at Spine HC i simply "outburst-ed" on TS3 and forced my RL to make me swap with my Spriest.
F* YOU DARK INTENT.



Which is again what i'm experiencing now. Destruction is a lovable spec; but, like all the Lock specs, it forces you with a stupid amount of compromises that rally hold you back.

The 3 shard cost on RoF and the mastery CB swings makes me want to slit WL class designers' throats.
Then i just cast Incinerate and simply get harmless and depressed.

Unless i hurt myself with some masochistic intents, i think i'm gonna buy me a tickt to Mageville; at this point, why not?

[wooters]

It's actually gotten more complex with legion than its been in quite some time.

But its the pre-xpac so ofc doomsayers are out in full swing. The same kind of talk happened before wod, and before mop, and basically every xpac.

*shrug*

destro are dumbed down compared to the past 4 expansions. that is pretty much undebatable..helluva lot of abilities have been pruned away and simplified. personally I wonder why we even have a conversation in this manner...why wouldn`t every player of this class/spec at least have the option of a more engaging and challenging playstyle?!

[Gaidax]

destro are dumbed down compared to the past 4 expansions. that is pretty much undebatable..helluva lot of abilities have been pruned away and simplified. personally I wonder why we even have a conversation in this manner...why wouldn`t every player of this class/spec at least have the option of a more engaging and challenging playstyle?!

Yes, I agree, with you it is undebatable.

[wooters]

argue away then gaidax. explain how legion destro have evolved into something better

[Gaidax]

I don't like wasting time on pointless things, you have the argument above you, but you keep parroting the same BS all over and over and over again. So whatever, if you believe in that then fine by me, dude.

[wooters]

I'm all for integrity...but just for the record, this is more or less the only place people are positive to legion destro. everywhere else including every public review I have seen..its getting the thumbs down. that should tell you something when you state what i say is BS. yeah I admit I`ve been repeating myself..its hard not to when people don`t listen to reason..or doesn`t even bother counter argue(when they see for themselves they are wrong ofc). but I care more of the class then of this discussion.. go ahead and be a white knight by all means

[Duckz0rs]

I'm all for integrity...but just for the record, this is more or less the only place people are positive to legion destro. everywhere else including every public review I have seen..its getting the thumbs down. that should tell you something when you state what i say is BS. yeah I admit I`ve been repeating myself..its hard not to when people don`t listen to reason..or doesn`t even bother counter argue(when they see for themselves they are wrong ofc). but I care more of the class then of this discussion.. go ahead and be a white knight by all means

It'd help if both sides of the coin would be open to each others arguments in the first place. Most of the time the Destro is good Destro is bad turns from a very black and white discussion into "insults" such as saying someone is white knighting.

This whole discussion is stale and arguments are repeated over and over again because it's not a discussion. You've got two sides shouting at each other that the other side doesn't listen to reason, when in actuality neither side listens to the other in the first place. Add some lack of nuance into the discussion and you've got, well, every pre-patch "discussion" ever.

[Deleted]

Overall, destro still has quite a bit of potential. I only hope for some tuning that makes them a bit better in 5-man content. If you have a choice between Hunter, Mage or lock, you are always going to take the first 2 due to better suitability for it. Especially the heroism/bloodlust that mage brings to the table is simply too much.

In Raids, I can see destro doing well, although I am a bit sad that Roaring Blaze was nerfed out of existance. That gave destro a bit of a skill cap.

RoF at 3 shards is pricey but well worth it when mobs stay in the circle and you plan it well enough to stack them. No RnG needed for 2 stacked ones when starting at full shards. 3rd one could be possible with RNG. Only grime i have with it (and I am still submitting feedback to Blizz on it) is that mobs can be pulled out of it. At least make RoF invisible to other players as tanks seem to have it hardwired in their brains to pull mobs out of rain-of-fire type things.

[vaeevictiss]

Overall, destro still has quite a bit of potential. I only hope for some tuning that makes them a bit better in 5-man content. If you have a choice between Hunter, Mage or lock, you are always going to take the first 2 due to better suitability for it. Especially the heroism/bloodlust that mage brings to the table is simply too much.

In Raids, I can see destro doing well, although I am a bit sad that Roaring Blaze was nerfed out of existance. That gave destro a bit of a skill cap.

RoF at 3 shards is pricey but well worth it when mobs stay in the circle and you plan it well enough to stack them. No RnG needed for 2 stacked ones when starting at full shards. 3rd one could be possible with RNG. Only grime i have with it (and I am still submitting feedback to Blizz on it) is that mobs can be pulled out of it. At least make RoF invisible to other players as tanks seem to have it hardwired in their brains to pull mobs out of rain-of-fire type things.

that is probably why. It was apparent they wanted to take skill out of rotations so any new player could come in and be part of the team without really practicing and getting everything just right. I get it though, i see what blizzard is doing. I wish they would appease to their veteran players however and not the new ones.

[Deleted]

that is probably why. It was apparent they wanted to take skill out of rotations so any new player could come in and be part of the team without really practicing and getting everything just right. I get it though, i see what blizzard is doing. I wish they would appease to their veteran players however and not the new ones.

Hmm, I guess Blizzard wishes they had more veteran players to appease instead of turncoat kiddies who leave the minute they are not happy about something minor who they then have to win back by appeasing them as "new p(l)ayers"

[Halwyn]

So... was taking a break from raiding for prepatch and can someone please give me some insight on the new Rain of Fire: is it worth anything without Demonic Power to back it up and how much targets I need to get under it to make it worthwhile?

[Baconeggcheese]

It'd help if both sides of the coin would be open to each others arguments in the first place. Most of the time the Destro is good Destro is bad turns from a very black and white discussion into "insults" such as saying someone is white knighting.

This whole discussion is stale and arguments are repeated over and over again because it's not a discussion. You've got two sides shouting at each other that the other side doesn't listen to reason, when in actuality neither side listens to the other in the first place. Add some lack of nuance into the discussion and you've got, well, every pre-patch "discussion" ever.

The discussion around destro has been this way for years. Mop / wod destro would constantly get shit on for being "braindead" while others tried to explain its depth to people who couldn't possibly appreciate it.

Really the only difference is there's only a few of us left that actually raid at a high level still posting here with any frequency. Where a few years ago there was a nice handful of top end raiders posting here and this section of mmo was actually productive. Those people who left have predominately been replaced by people who don't really know what they're talking about and like to perpetuate things like pre-xpac doomsaying.

Frankly I'm just curious where the constructive discussions moved to if anywhere, because while the warlock section of mmo used to be solid its mostly turned to shit these days. I know for some other classes its mostly moved to discord, but I've yet to see if that's the case with the warlock one.

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So... was taking a break from raiding for prepatch and can someone please give me some insight on the new Rain of Fire: is it worth anything without Demonic Power to back it up and how much targets I need to get under it to make it worthwhile?

I'm just napkin mathing so don't take this as gospel, but if my thinking's bout right: without havoc 3+ targets, with havoc 6+ targets.

Gosac shouldn't make any difference to usage as its rppm.

[Deleted]

Frankly I'm just curious where the constructive discussions moved to if anywhere, because while the warlock section of mmo used to be solid its mostly turned to shit these days. I know for some other classes its mostly moved to discord, but I've yet to see if that's the case with the warlock one.
- - - Updated - - -
I'm just napkin mathing so don't take this as gospel, but if my thinking's bout right: without havoc 3+ targets, with havoc 6+ targets.

Gosac shouldn't make any difference to usage as its rppm.

I would LOVE to know that, too, where I can discuss mythic raiding progress questions with other (more skilled) locks! Let me know if you find something like this!

On the RoF question: RoF dmg can be Havoc'ed? Or why do you make the number of targets dependent on it?

Edit: Oh nevermind. I've misread it. Without Havoc basically means "with Soul Conduit".

[Baconeggcheese]

On the RoF question: RoF dmg can be Havoc'ed? Or why do you make the number of targets dependent on it?

Edit: Oh nevermind. I've misread it. Without Havoc basically means "with Soul Conduit".

It's in reference to Chaosbolt, without havoc up you'd likely cast it at 3 targets, with havoc available (with or without wreak havoc) it'd likely be 6+ targets. Since that's what RoF is competing with.

[Bjarkan]

The discussion around destro has been this way for years. Mop / wod destro would constantly get shit on for being "braindead" while others tried to explain its depth to people who couldn't possibly appreciate it.

Really the only difference is there's only a few of us left that actually raid at a high level still posting here with any frequency. Where a few years ago there was a nice handful of top end raiders posting here and this section of mmo was actually productive. Those people who left have predominately been replaced by people who don't really know what they're talking about and like to perpetuate things like pre-xpac doomsaying.

Frankly I'm just curious where the constructive discussions moved to if anywhere, because while the warlock section of mmo used to be solid its mostly turned to shit these days. I know for some other classes its mostly moved to discord, but I've yet to see if that's the case with the warlock one.

Is quite common, ppl is always competitive and always one be "the one", so when things dont go the way they want it, they start to cry out.

With the spirit of having a good discousion, i would write down my experience with the new Lock Destro in Mythics:

Firstly, my setup: Roaring Blaze > Manatap > Demon Skin > Erradication > Dark Pact > Grimore of Sacrifice > Channel Demonfire

Why this setup? Well, for my playstyle... Shadowburn and Manatap dont work well together to me, because and always seek for a "well-rounded setup", something that works in every situacion without lossing to much against something specializated. Having saying this, Roaring Blaze and Manatap have a good synergy to me for all situation, pre-casting Manatap and having a Havoked Immo > 2x Confla make me have quite enough damage in two targets, and the resourse for RoF or CB, as i see fit.

As i stayed before, having 22% of haste make GoSac proc a lot (and i still have they idea of GoSac proc more frequently with CDF... Nothing to support this, is just my perception), making a good sourse of damge, even more in Erradication window, which in boss fight is really easy to have up for "microburst" periods with Manatap and CDF (and just for the record, a max distance, 40yrd, the time travel of a CB, and the nature of Erradication, make the use of a well timed Incineration highly rewarded).

Im playing Warlock ever since Vainilla, so the Tap Dance is quite nostalgic and easy to me, but this is what put the skill cap in the spec... Having to use GCD in Life Tap for mana and in Mana Tap for the microbuff is quite dificult, and thats the reason Revese Entrophy talent exist... RE blow away one of the skill caps (been a well used Havok the another one) in three ways: 1) No more Life Tap use 2) No microbuff management 3) Less Casting time... But in every situation where i use RE, i end with less DPS then using a wisely manage Tap Dance. Maybe this change with the Artifact, im expecting a more fluid SS flow with it, but right now, im having so few SS then using Soul Conducit not seems worthy, this and the well Channel Demonfire CD fit in my rotation, leaving me with a always "microburst" moment.

Now, a tried too "Roaring Blaze >Cataclyms > Soul Harvest > GoServ > CDF" setup, and i must say i didnt work for me... Doble Imp damage right now is quite low (maybe yet better with Impish trait?), but the setup is quite bursty in ST, making me be in the top of the dps metter for fight with duration of less than a minute. And no having particullar problems with AoE thrash... But i still feel my actual setup more balanced.

I dont have use Wreak Havock, and i think i wont, because i see Havock been quite op as it is right now, and i havent see another use for GoSup than farmming propurse (and for this ALWAYS bring you Infenal and spec Shadowburn, the smoothness of having both thing it should be a crime).

I do a lot of PvP, more PvP then Mythics actually, and a can say Demon Skin + Dark Pact + Unending Resolve make you nearly unkilleable (and even more if you actually use Drain Life for raging people)... Maybe i dont burn down a Hunter like before, but i know the Hunter, or one of his friend, would die first, and if the let me live long enough for the CDs refresh, then maybe all of then die too.

This is for me, a very least dont see to much problem with Destro tooltip, more then no having my Demon Ability with me when a Sacrifice my demon... For all the flexibility it have, i can only be gratefull, and as i see it, only DK Unholy is this flexible (and needing a nerf maybe, is just too easy do anything with it >>).

So... was taking a break from raiding for prepatch and can someone please give me some insight on the new Rain of Fire: is it worth anything without Demonic Power to back it up and how much targets I need to get under it to make it worthwhile?

I have go around in prepatch with GoSac and with GoServ, and for the both cases, i can say is a waste use RoF for a pull of a less 5 thrash... Havok is quite strong, and with it, my setup of Havock > Immo > Confla > Chaos Bolt > CDF > Inci spam, make the work just fine in pull up to 4 thrash.

[Halwyn]

It's in reference to Chaosbolt, without havoc up you'd likely cast it at 3 targets, with havoc available (with or without wreak havoc) it'd likely be 6+ targets. Since that's what RoF is competing with.

Enlightening as always, thanks Bacon

[bio347]

I'm just napkin mathing so don't take this as gospel, but if my thinking's bout right: without havoc 3+ targets, with havoc 6+ targets.

It's tough to quantify things like Eradication and Soul Snatcher with really simple math, but based on pure damage per shard metrics RoF wins at three targets without Havoc, yeah. At four targets, I think you're probably pretty safe from any sort of other considerations making CB better, and above that threshold RoF obviously just keeps getting better.

[Shiennar]

Looking through logs from raid testing I can see plenty of destruction warlocks still using doomguard as a cd. Isnt Infernal supposed to be better with Lord of Flames?