1 Legion in all realities? CONFUSING!

[Deleted]

I think that at this point you just need to roll with whatever blizzard does, the moment they made an entire expansion based on time traveling they messed around with so many things.

One of my favorite examples of where this does not make sense, is that if there is only 1 burning legion, AKA 1 Archimonde, 1 Kil'Jaeden, etc. Why is there 2 Velens and not a bunch of good Archimonde's and Kil'Jaeden. All three of these characters were of the same race in the same place in time. Maybe they will adress this in the future, but for now just play the game and enjoy the story, don't overthink it as it does not really make sense anymore.

The only way I can rationalise this is that whenever someone becomes a demon it destroys all other alternate versions of them in every other reality and then that 1 remaining demonic version can traverse all realities by crossing through the twisting nether. HOWEVER, does Gul'Dan debunk this, I don't know what proportion demon he is.

[nnelson54]

Yet the Infinites have only meddled with our reality. Why aren't they out there changing every other reality?

They were, briefly. When Nozdormu created them they only cared about this reality because they were created to free the Old Gods, but once he died and Kairozdormu took over they went about changing all realities. They're the entire reason WoD happened. It was the Infinite Dragonflight that freed Garrosh with Kairozdormu and Wrathion and put him in a different timeline to create a new Horde to fight the Burning Legion. Kairozdormu's plan was to create an infinite number of Hordes across all timelines to battle the Burning Legion in all realities, but he was killed by Garrosh and the Infinite Dragonflight hasn't been seen since.

[Deleted]

The second Velen only came into existence when Garrosh went back and altered the timeline. So until the exact moment after Garrosh got sent back and started changing stuff, there was only one timeline and due to his influence the timeline split into two realities creating multiple versions of some characters. All time traveling dungeons are basically; us going back in order to stop new realities from being created. The only reason Garrosh succeded is because he had help from the Bronze Dragonflight which is charged with actually protecting the timeline.

[Aquamonkey]

The second Velen only came into existence when Garrosh went back and altered the timeline. So until the exact moment after Garrosh got sent back and started changing stuff, there was only one timeline and due to his influence the timeline split into two realities creating multiple versions of some characters.

AU Draenor was there before Garrosh showed up. There were already difference that predate his arrival.

All time traveling dungeons are basically; us going back in order to stop new realities from being created. The only reason Garrosh succeded is because he had help from the Bronze Dragonflight which is charged with actually protecting the timeline.

This is also wrong. Those dungeons were us going back to prevent changes to our history, not stop new realities from being created.

[Qualia]

The second Velen only came into existence when Garrosh went back and altered the timeline. So until the exact moment after Garrosh got sent back and started changing stuff, there was only one timeline and due to his influence the timeline split into two realities creating multiple versions of some characters. All time traveling dungeons are basically; us going back in order to stop new realities from being created. The only reason Garrosh succeded is because he had help from the Bronze Dragonflight which is charged with actually protecting the timeline.

No. The alternate universes have always been there. "Illidan" mentioned as much ("This time he saw not just one universe but a near infinity of them, a complex fractal structure, where new worlds were born each minute from the decisions made a heartbeat before"), and Afrasiabi said the same in his interview.

Absolutely, and this is a precedent here, that there are alternate worlds across the multiverse. There is a multiverse, right, I mean it's something we bounced around the previous Caverns of Time stuff sort of -- like we kind of skirted it -- and we embraced it with this one.

[Kralljin]

Is it an absolute must for all, or most, of other alternate universes to resemble ours in the sense that they have the interactions (bolded parts in the quote) between the Legion (as we know of), the Orcs, and us? I don't think so. AU Gul'dan might have contacted the Legion before, but they only sent Mannoroth to AU way after Garrosh's arrival (and actually sent him there 1 year earlier than they did in our MU).

Not sure if the Legion was aware of Garrosh's arrival on this specific AU, after all, Gul'dan failed because Garrosh.

One may argue that it could be possible that the Legion wasn't going to bother with AU Draenor (or AUs in general) if they didn't detect Garrosh there. It's also possible that they might have sent some other demons instead, maybe a less important branch of the Legion. I admit that sounds a bit forced, but it isn't completely impossible.

Kairoz summoned in War crimes people from similiar timelines with noteable differences.

Like Baine, from a timeline where he killed Garrosh, History must have been pretty similar there.

Or Jaina, who actually wrecked Orgrimmar, also quite similiar History presumably.

The thing is simply, KJ contacted Gul'dan before Garrosh's arrival on Draenor and tried to seduce the Orcs, Grommash mentioned Gul'dans babble about the Draenei threat when he first talked to Garrosh.

[Abstieg]

Out of curiosity, how did we end up with two demonic Socrethars? Doesn't that hurt the whole "one Legion" thing going on, unless Socrethar's slain soul manifested as his old non-corrupted self when Kairoz created Draenor... yeah that makes no sense.

[Kralljin]

Out of curiosity, how did we end up with two demonic Socrethars? Doesn't that hurt the whole "one Legion" thing going on, unless Socrethar's slain soul manifested as his old non-corrupted self when Kairoz created Draenor... yeah that makes no sense.

My explanation, as mentioned in another thread is that there can be 2 demonic versions of someone until one of them enters the Nether.

To explain this, Socrethar on Draenor died in Shattrath, yet instead of just returning like a regular demon he tried to preserve his Soul in a Vigilante.

Because there is already Socrethar, his Soul would be "consumed" once he enters the Nether, since there can't be 2 "demons" of someone in the Nether, hence he tried to dodge that by sitting in a Vigilante.

This is speculative, but for a being that can get a body back by chilling in the nether, there must be a good reason why he chose to preserve his soul in a mechanical construct.

[lordcanyon]

In both timelines known to us Kil'jaeden and Archimonde got corrupted with Sargeras' offer of power. Now, if Sargeras and the BL can transcend all timelines and realities, then Sargeras' reach for those two could affect all the timelines in the same time. Once KJ and Archie got infused with demonic powers, they became attuned to Twisting Nether, its reality and all the rules that come with it. (potentially effectively merging the "AU" and "MU" and any other versions into one being)

Here's my take. If the timelines were one and the same until the point Garrosh went back then there would only be 1 Kil'jaeden and Archimonde. (still doesn't explain some things but meh)

[Abstieg]

My explanation, as mentioned in another thread is that there can be 2 demonic versions of someone until one of them enters the Nether.

To explain this, Socrethar on Draenor died in Shattrath, yet instead of just returning like a regular demon he tried to preserve his Soul in a Vigilante.

Because there is already Socrethar, his Soul would be "consumed" once he enters the Nether, since there can't be 2 "demons" of someone in the Nether, hence he tried to dodge that by sitting in a Vigilante.

This is speculative, but for a being that can get a body back by chilling in the nether, there must be a good reason why he chose to preserve his soul in a mechanical construct.

This could make sense. But would that mean, now that Archimonde is perma-dead, a past Archimonde could turn demonic and enter the Nether freely, since there's no other Archimonde-soul in it?

[ReVnX]

I remember a tweet to that effect or something (I'm not even sure how canon it was), but I've elected to completely ignore it. It makes so little sense and opens up so many plot holes that it's the very first bit of lore in Warcraft that made me say "...okay guys, you've lost me". As far as I'm concerned, there's one Burning Legion per timeline, just like everything else. The BL we fought in WoD was the Alt!Legion, and this expansion features the real one.

I'm sorry but it's the same. No point in choosing to ignore that

[Piamonte]

as others have already said, the best way to explain this is this:

-If one version of a being in one timeline becomes a demon, then every single counterpart in every single timeline also becomes a demon
-As someone already said, when socrethar finally died in Draenor he was absorved by his demonic counterpart in the nether
-demons can´t travel through time, they need someone to open a portal for them

the big questions are:
why our timeline is more important than the others?
how are the demons able to invade every single timeline at the same time?? it would be stupid for Archimonde to be destroyed in Nordrasil again and again..

[Wondercrab]

It's better just to pretend the whole alternate realities thing never happened and doesn't exist. It doesn't add anything meaningful to the narrative and just throws a bunch of confusing, convoluted spanners into the works.

[Teaon]

Yes, Archimonde is dead. That is the canon. That's how you kill a demon, in the Twisting Nether or a region saturated with demonic power.
.

mythic phase was not canon, its extra stuff for high end raiders

he died in draenor, if he died in the TN, how did guldan reach our world then? remember, he pushed him, just like the cinematic

[Hyve]

I think it's a cooler system, and easier.

The Twisting Nether connects all the worlds, even in other universes. The Legion travels through the Twisting Nether. Makes them far more powerful and a worrisome threat.

[Kralljin]

This could make sense. But would that mean, now that Archimonde is perma-dead, a past Archimonde could turn demonic and enter the Nether freely, since there's no other Archimonde-soul in it?

Archimondes situation is currently unknown.

Kosak said in an interview that they're not sure if they want to make Archimondes death in the Nether canon, technically, he died on Draenor.

[Qualia]

Kairoz summoned in War crimes people from similiar timelines with noteable differences.
Like Baine, from a timeline where he killed Garrosh, History must have been pretty similar there.
Or Jaina, who actually wrecked Orgrimmar, also quite similiar History presumably.

The thing is simply, KJ contacted Gul'dan before Garrosh's arrival on Draenor and tried to seduce the Orcs, Grommash mentioned Gul'dans babble about the Draenei threat when he first talked to Garrosh.

Yes, it's true that Gul'dan mentioned the Draenei threat before Grom met Garrosh. However, it isn't necessarily an indication that the Legion was going to get involved the same way as they did in the MU. They could, for example, just leave Gul'dan to build his own army and rally other Orc clans to attack the AU Draenei. Or, it's also possible that they'd be sending some other demons instead of Mannoroth - after all, Illidan mentioned that the army the Legion sent to our world was only ever a small part of the whole; It's not like they'd be lacking in number to the point that they can't spare any powerful demon to some other universes. In these two possibilities, we wouldn't have the same demon bleeding for Orcs every universes.

It's also true that Kairoz summoned some alternate version from alternate timelines in "War Crimes", and the Infinite Dragonflight brought Blackmoore to us in "Twilight of the Aspect". However, similarly to the point above, one can argue that all the events leading to the results in those alternate timelines were done by some other demons than the one we know of, or even not by any demon at all and just by mortals spellcasters. Of course, as I said, I admit that it's *reallly* forced. However, it isn't entirely impossible.

All those explanations were made under assumption that each universe consists of only ONE main / true timeline. However, if the theory that each universe (exists normally) also have infinite timelines by themselves (exist as possibilities, with the exception of true timeline) is true (not mine, but I can't see anything contradicts it yet), we wouldn't even need those explanation anymore. Things would turn out to be very simple.

mythic phase was not canon, its extra stuff for high end raiders

he died in draenor, if he died in the TN, how did guldan reach our world then? remember, he pushed him, just like the cinematic

It is canon. Kosak said so in Blizzcon 2015 interview (here). He said that the original idea is that in Mythic, you'd be killing him in the Twisting Nether and he'd be "dead dead for good". That was the idea they played with. To the credits of people who believed Mythic wasn't canon, he admitted that it didn't come across well enough in game (which probably can be translated to "we didn't have enough time to create a new cinematic and draft a quick plotline to put Gul'dan inside the portal").

Still, he DID say that "Maybe we will change that", so they could bring back Archimonde if they want. However, "maybe" isn't "definitely". If anything, Gul'dan calling us "Slayer of Archimonde" (only if you have the mythic achievement) during Warlock artifact questline can be a sign that they haven't changed the canon status of that (yet).

[Teaon]

It is canon. Kosak said so in Blizzcon 2015 interview (here). He said that the original idea is that in Mythic, you'd be killing him in the Twisting Nether and he'd be "dead dead for good". That was the idea they played with. To the credits of people who believed Mythic wasn't canon, he admitted that it didn't come across well enough in game (which probably can be translated to "we didn't have enough time to create a new cinematic and draft a quick plotline to put Gul'dan inside the portal").

Still, he DID say that "Maybe we will change that", so they could bring back Archimonde if they want. However, "maybe" isn't "definitely". If anything, Gul'dan calling us "Slayer of Archimonde" (only if you have the mythic achievement) during Warlock artifact questline can be a sign that they haven't changed the canon status of that (yet).

at the start of the link, " we might change that, that might not be canon " its just an idea and the end of the question " maybe thats not canon, maybe we might continue with that idea "

so yeah, he confirmed nothing, they are like " we will bring him back and call that mythic non-canon if it feels awesome to bring him back "

which is kinda, stupid imo

TL'DR archi fate unknown untill blizzard feels like to say otherwise

[Fmr]

The alternate timelines only exist because blizzard wanted old draenor with a new story. There is nothing more to justify the mess they made. The lore is hilarious since wow anyway.

[Qualia]

at the start of the link, " we might change that, that might not be canon " its just an idea and the end of the question " maybe thats not canon, maybe we might continue with that idea "

so yeah, he confirmed nothing, they are like " we will bring him back and call that mythic non-canon if it feels awesome to bring him back "

which is kinda, stupid imo

TL'DR archi fate unknown untill blizzard feels like to say otherwise

Actually, no. While it's true that "we might change that" does open the possibility of them changing its canon status, "might" is not "will" - so it's what it was supposed to be. Of course, I agree that one can argue that this only means it's uncertain. However, the second point come forth.

In the Warlock Destruction Artifact quest chain, if you have never killed Archimonde in Mythic (= don't have Mythic Archimonde achievement), Gul'dan will just said "Ah, Jergosh, at last! Bring me the book!" when you arrive, and "Congratulations on your "promotion", Jergosh <...> . However, if you killed Archimonde in Mythic, Gul'dan will instead said "Ah, the Book is here, at last... borne by one whose meddlesome handiwork I know well! Come to join the winning side, "hero"?", "Even the slayer of Archimonde has accepted this world's fate! Come closer, then" and "Not surprising that you came out the victor, I considered aiding Allaris against you, but your resourcefulness may prove useful. Consider this... a promotion! Do not disappoint me!" (you can see one with the M-Archimonde achievement version here, and the ones without it almost everywhere on youtube).

If they have changed their mind, which means Archimonde is alive in both version, why would there be a difference between M-Archimonde kill and H-Archimonde kill? If the Mythic version is supposed to be non-canon, then why would there be special lore dialogue for it?