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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Puri View Post
    Err what? Nobody gives a damn if their national anthem is playing at any sports event outside the US, but even worse you are playing it at completely national events like the Super Bowl. Why?
    Well there was that German team at the Olympiad (don't remember which one) that apparently did sing (the Brasilians had some problems with the sound system).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Swizzington View Post
    Oh yeah I read something about if you see the flag being put up you should stand and salute. I've never actually seen a flag being put up or taken down though so I wouldn't know.
    Salute? Even if you aren't in uniform?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    p.s, no what Americans do with the anthem is not normal in a lot of other countries.
    I'd go so far as describing what they have as an inability to show proper respect since the act they could use to do so are routine with them and thus not a sign of respect but of a lack of respect.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    When you say "Hello" to someone, you essentially set up the ground to communicate with them.
    When you stand, looking at the flag with devotion, what are you communicating essentially?
    why do you need to pray with others, showing them that you believe in god?
    I explicitly invoked waving hello, rather than saying "hello". Because waving is a ritual like any other.
    If we interpret waving hello as a signal to engage in communication, flag praising or community prayer are also signals. Perhaps to initiate conversation of what great freedom we share, or what was your charity work last weekend.
    If we interpret the meaning already contained in the signal, waving hello can indicate a cheerful day, or it might indicate that you don't want to engage in further exchange other than courteously acknowledging their presence. It's actually a very complex sign; evolved through the centuries to mean very different things.
    Similarly standing up to an anthem indicates approval of the values they think the nation shares. Just like burning one signifies disapproval of some or all values of the nation.
    Mass praying is a community activity involving doing stuff they like. It's like dancing with other people: something extremely ritualistic and codified, that individuals do for fun, but that we also like doing in couples or in groups. Nobody is seeking approval out of group dancing, and neither do people engaging in mass prayer.

    The difference, really, is that you personally don't share or enjoy their codes nor their sentiments.

    Ultimately, I think questioning what meaning is behind our constructs is important. We continuously adapt them, and these national or patriotic sentiments will change. Like everything does. But I don't see much merit in challenging the codes or the rituals themselves. It's just arbitrary things we do to convey some meaning to like-minded individuals or people that understand the specific code. Just like waving hello. They also will change, of course, but their existence is as justified as any word is.
    Why do we use complicated words like "sternocleidomastoid muscle"?, we could call it "dupi" and be done with it. Well, we could, but we already have the specific code to convey that meaning. It's all equally arbitrary conventions.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    But we're more normal in Canada, we don't have a weird obsession with being patriotic..
    Made me think of this ad campaign... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRI-...I-A3vakVg#t=11

    Not sure why you think it's weird to be patriotic, though.

  4. #204
    The Unstoppable Force May90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nextormento View Post
    I explicitly invoked waving hello, rather than saying "hello". Because waving is a ritual like any other.
    If we interpret waving hello as a signal to engage in communication, flag praising or community prayer are also signals. Perhaps to initiate conversation of what great freedom we share, or what was your charity work last weekend.
    If we interpret the meaning already contained in the signal, waving hello can indicate a cheerful day, or it might indicate that you don't want to engage in further exchange other than courteously acknowledging their presence. It's actually a very complex sign; evolved through the centuries to mean very different things.
    Similarly standing up to an anthem indicates approval of the values they think the nation shares. Just like burning one signifies disapproval of some or all values of the nation.
    Mass praying is a community activity involving doing stuff they like. It's like dancing with other people: something extremely ritualistic and codified, that individuals do for fun, but that we also like doing in couples or in groups. Nobody is seeking approval out of group dancing, and neither do people engaging in mass prayer.

    The difference, really, is that you personally don't share or enjoy their codes nor their sentiments.

    Ultimately, I think questioning what meaning is behind our constructs is important. We continuously adapt them, and these national or patriotic sentiments will change. Like everything does. But I don't see much merit in challenging the codes or the rituals themselves. It's just arbitrary things we do to convey some meaning to like-minded individuals or people that understand the specific code. Just like waving hello. They also will change, of course, but their existence is as justified as any word is.
    Why do we use complicated words like "sternocleidomastoid muscle"?, we could call it "dupi" and be done with it. Well, we could, but we already have the specific code to convey that meaning. It's all equally arbitrary conventions.
    I see what you are saying, but I think there is a fundamental difference still. First, waving hand assumes that some kind of interaction, however short, is planned; while standing and listening to an anthem doesn't tend to result in any kind of interaction, and after it is over everyone just goes about their business. Second, waving hand or saying "Hello" is a very short signal, you can do that even as you go about your business, not wasting a single millisecond. While standing listening to an anthem is more than just a gesture, it is a religious-like ritual instead.

    Now, don't get me wrong, rituals are important. Extinguishing candles on a birthday cake, for example, is a fun activity that makes everyone feel better. And I can kinda see listening to an anthem the same way, it makes everyone feel better, so nothing wrong with that. What I do mind is when this is declared as some sort of etiquette, or, even worse, regulation - which tries to imagine everyone as morally obliged to do that, even if they don't want to. Rituals which you do to make yourself feel better are great; rituals that are pushed down your throat, however, are not. And, again, ultimately, it is up to the person to decide whether they want to follow a ritual or not.

    But, fair enough, your reasoning is fair. I suppose, same way, praying to the god publicly is a sort of a ritual that serves as a way of unifying people and making them feel better. I probably was too categorical in my judgment.
    Quote Originally Posted by King Candy View Post
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  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    Well there was that German team at the Olympiad (don't remember which one) that apparently did sing (the Brasilians had some problems with the sound system).

    ....
    yep, that was the men's hockey team match Ireland vs Germany, both had to perform their anthems a capella.
    germany won not only the match but also the anthem "contest", because team germany was well versed in its lyrics.

    Last edited by ranzino; 2016-08-22 at 09:00 PM.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by roent View Post
    Made me think of this ad campaign... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRI-...I-A3vakVg#t=11

    Not sure why you think it's weird to be patriotic, though.
    As I have said before, I never said it's weird to be patriotic. Read it again.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    What I do mind is when this is declared as some sort of etiquette, or, even worse, regulation - which tries to imagine everyone as morally obliged to do that, even if they don't want to. Rituals which you do to make yourself feel better are great; rituals that are pushed down your throat, however, are not.
    it is up to the person to decide whether they want to follow a ritual or not.
    Yeah, I would, of course, oppose any such regulation.

    Etiquette is just customary (according to custom), not mandatory.
    If presented with a cake you're expected to blow the candles. It's customary, tradition, etiquette. If you refuse to blow them, they might not throw a party for you the following year. Unless you've selected your friends among the non-candle-blower community. There is no moral obligation: just social expectations that you may meet or not.

    The rare occasions that I attend mass, I generally stand in a corner by myself. If it's a Roman rite including pax vobiscum during the liturgy, I'll shake hands, but that's about it. I similarly greet Shalom and such little things. What I will not do is browse through my cellphone, or play some music.
    I think their rituals are silly. My religious friends know that. But they enjoy my presence, and I enjoy sharing an event that is important to them.
    I similarly stand for the national anthem. Ours is just music without song, but I would not sing it anyway.
    It is always up to the individual to not follow all their things. I've never felt forced to perform any ritual I didn't want to. If the event requires some of the ones I don't like, I'll probably not attend.

    That I have that freedom is why they don't inconvenience me. If someone wanted to take that freedom away from us, they deserve to be kindly invited to fuck off.
    Last edited by nextormento; 2016-08-22 at 09:53 PM.

  8. #208
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    Honest question here. What if you're a tourist currently at the US, and the place/event you're currently at starts playing the US anthem for some reason (from the reasonable sports event to a mall speaker oficer™ feeling extra patriotic that day), and you couldn't care less about anthems. You're not expected to stop everything you're doing and pay salute to it like it's a boon from the heavens in musical form, are you? I mean, it's not YOUR anthem...

  9. #209
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    At sporting events I'll stand up, be silent and take off my hat if I'm wearing one. But that's only if I'm already at my seat. If I'm somewhere else in the arena doing miscellaneous things I'm not going to just stand there like a fucking zombie waiting for the 2-3 minutes to pass. If I'm on my way back to my seat during an anthem I will however just stand out of the way waiting for it to end. This way I don't have to brush people aside or get in front of people on my way back to my seats.

    I don't mind patriotic things at sporting events because it kind of goes with the territory. I won't judge others who don't participate, but I'll at least respect the anthem being played. Normally this happens at U.S sporting events that I visit and I really don't mind standing for the U.S anthem. Not going to put my hand over my heart, but out of respect I'll stand.

    The only thing I take issue with is when they start overdoing it, with constant pleas and gestures to stand to respect various things. I went to a hockey game in Anaheim once and they asked us to stand for military people who were present, and then again later for some random old dude at a certain point and then again for another random old military dude. At that point it does get stupid standing up and sitting back down over and over again in a 10 minute interval multiple times. Sometimes I'll do it, but I don't make it a habit of standing every time unless it's an anthem, that I'm okay with.

    Even though I didn't stand for the military salute, and pretty much everybody else around me did, nobody really did anything or cared. The only time I've ever witnessed something where things got sketchy was a Nascar race when I was like 10. People were pretty rude around us when they played the Canadian anthem (there was a Canadian in the field) by making fun of it the entire time. When the American anthem played these same people stood up, hands on heart and started singing their anthem wrong. Best part was when my mother turned around to these people and corrected them for messing up the words of their own anthem they were so patriotically singing, lol. They didn't really know what to say.

    People get too bent out of shape about anthems and stuff. I really don't care if people stand or not. I think a certain level of respect to the degree of just being quiet for a couple minutes is about it though. Even then, don't care. I remember watching a baseball game (Toronto vs Texas) and two players got into a fist fight a couple months ago. One was from Domican and the other was was from Venezuela. For whatever reason the crowd started chanting USA, which seemed pretty fucking retarded considered the circumstances. Canadian team vs American team sure, but half he players on those teams aren't even from Canada or the U.S, lol.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    Salute? Even if you aren't in uniform?
    In my etiquette book, they call putting your hand on your heart a 'salute'. Sorry if I was misleading.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azgraal View Post
    Honest question here. What if you're a tourist currently at the US, and the place/event you're currently at starts playing the US anthem for some reason (from the reasonable sports event to a mall speaker oficer™ feeling extra patriotic that day), and you couldn't care less about anthems. You're not expected to stop everything you're doing and pay salute to it like it's a boon from the heavens in musical form, are you? I mean, it's not YOUR anthem...
    The official code says members of other countries should just stand at attention.

  11. #211
    The wording says "should" on the code of conduct though.. Not "must" or "required".
    They are leaving you an option of making the choice yourself.
    At sporting events, you should show respect to an anthem in my book though.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by nextormento View Post
    Yeah, I would, of course, oppose any such regulation.

    Etiquette is just customary (according to custom), not mandatory.
    If presented with a cake you're expected to blow the candles. It's customary, tradition, etiquette. If you refuse to blow them, they might not throw a party for you the following year. Unless you've selected your friends among the non-candle-blower community. There is no moral obligation: just social expectations that you may meet or not.

    The rare occasions that I attend mass, I generally stand in a corner by myself. If it's a Roman rite including pax vobiscum during the liturgy, I'll shake hands, but that's about it. I similarly greet Shalom and such little things. What I will not do is browse through my cellphone, or play some music.
    I think their rituals are silly. My religious friends know that. But they enjoy my presence, and I enjoy sharing an event that is important to them.
    I similarly stand for the national anthem. Ours is just music without song, but I would not sing it anyway.
    It is always up to the individual to not follow all their things. I've never felt forced to perform any ritual I didn't want to. If the event requires some of the ones I don't like, I'll probably not attend.

    That I have that freedom is why they don't inconvenience me. If someone wanted to take that freedom away from us, they deserve to be kindly invited to fuck off.
    I can say that I share your views on this almost completely. The problem is, in practice etiquette often results in actual actions being taken. I remember a story, I think, from my university (or maybe some other), when at the beginning of some yearly event the guy opening it up ignored the part where he was supposed to thank god for something and just moved on to the next part - and the university is catholic. After the event, the university administration took action against him and banned him from ever making public speeches on campus or something, and quite a few people posted offensive things on his Facebook account as well.

    I mean, nothing illegal was done - and yet it is apparent that in this case etiquette enforcement went too far. And such things are not rare. My brother almost got thrown out of school once, when, on an event in support of war veterans, he refused to make a donation, since, he said, he didn't want anything to do with anything related to war. Legal or not, I think, such things just shouldn't take place.
    Quote Originally Posted by King Candy View Post
    I can't explain it because I'm an idiot, and I have to live with that post for the rest of my life. Better to just smile and back away slowly. Ignore it so that it can go away.
    Thanks for the avatar goes to Carbot Animations and Sy.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by nextormento View Post
    Yeah, I would, of course, oppose any such regulation.

    Etiquette is just customary (according to custom), not mandatory.
    If presented with a cake you're expected to blow the candles. It's customary, tradition, etiquette. If you refuse to blow them, they might not throw a party for you the following year. Unless you've selected your friends among the non-candle-blower community. There is no moral obligation: just social expectations that you may meet or not.

    The rare occasions that I attend mass, I generally stand in a corner by myself. If it's a Roman rite including pax vobiscum during the liturgy, I'll shake hands, but that's about it. I similarly greet Shalom and such little things. What I will not do is browse through my cellphone, or play some music.
    I think their rituals are silly. My religious friends know that. But they enjoy my presence, and I enjoy sharing an event that is important to them.
    I similarly stand for the national anthem. Ours is just music without song, but I would not sing it anyway.
    It is always up to the individual to not follow all their things. I've never felt forced to perform any ritual I didn't want to. If the event requires some of the ones I don't like, I'll probably not attend.

    That I have that freedom is why they don't inconvenience me. If someone wanted to take that freedom away from us, they deserve to be kindly invited to fuck off.
    Well said. I agree.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    I can say that I share your views on this almost completely. The problem is, in practice etiquette often results in actual actions being taken. I remember a story, I think, from my university (or maybe some other), when at the beginning of some yearly event the guy opening it up ignored the part where he was supposed to thank god for something and just moved on to the next part - and the university is catholic. After the event, the university administration took action against him and banned him from ever making public speeches on campus or something, and quite a few people posted offensive things on his Facebook account as well.

    I mean, nothing illegal was done - and yet it is apparent that in this case etiquette enforcement went too far. And such things are not rare. My brother almost got thrown out of school once, when, on an event in support of war veterans, he refused to make a donation, since, he said, he didn't want anything to do with anything related to war. Legal or not, I think, such things just shouldn't take place.
    That is the point you are missing. If you choose to go to a religious school, you should expect such ordinances to be followed. Now if it was a public school, totally different scenario and I would agree with you. It Is the same situation if I choose to join the Military. I should expect I will be required to follow military orders which do include ceremonial activities and rules for such.
    Last edited by Ghostpanther; 2016-08-23 at 02:38 AM.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    What happens if the anthem is playing from a car which is speeding towards you?
    Then use a bit of common sense.

    If you don't have any, well... then may God have mercy on your soul. :P

  15. #215
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    If you aren't in a military uniform you don't salute. If you are a civvy you put your hand over your heart. Everyone stands at attention.
    If you are a veteran, you can salute out of uniform. As of 2008. But really, there are no rules which will get you fined or into trouble anyway for a civilian. But etiquette guide lines are just that. Guide lines. Now when I was in the Army it was totally different. There were regulations concerning the flag and such I had to follow to the letter.

  16. #216
    The Unstoppable Force May90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    That is the point you are missing. If you choose to go to a religious school, you should expect such ordinances to be followed. Now if it was a public school, totally different scenario and I would agree with you. It Is the same situation if I choose to join the Military. I should expect I will be required to follow military orders which do include ceremonial activities and rules for such.
    Unless religious school has policies that officially enforce such behavior, one doesn't have to follow it to avoid persecution. In case of Military, you sign a contract in which it is described in perfect terms what your privileges and responsibilities are.

    As far as I know, at our university (despite it being officially Catholic) all religions are considered equal, as well as lack of religion. As such, one doesn't have to say thanks to the god at some event to not be penalized. Yet in reality, this is exactly how it works.
    Quote Originally Posted by King Candy View Post
    I can't explain it because I'm an idiot, and I have to live with that post for the rest of my life. Better to just smile and back away slowly. Ignore it so that it can go away.
    Thanks for the avatar goes to Carbot Animations and Sy.

  17. #217
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    Just let some people sing... They sometimes really believe they are like multiple people at once. Nationality is one of the grossest things that will ever exist.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    Unless religious school has policies that officially enforce such behavior, one doesn't have to follow it to avoid persecution. In case of Military, you sign a contract in which it is described in perfect terms what your privileges and responsibilities are.

    As far as I know, at our university (despite it being officially Catholic) all religions are considered equal, as well as lack of religion. As such, one doesn't have to say thanks to the god at some event to not be penalized. Yet in reality, this is exactly how it works.
    Well, you said they had not done anything illegal. So they had such a rule it would appear. A public school however can not have rules in dealing with the anthem and flag respect which would lead to your dismissal or disciplinary action being taken for not placing your heart over your hand and standing out of respect at a event during the playing of the anthem. If a school is religious/private or a public funded one, it does make a huge difference.

    One example of this was the Augusta National Golf Club in Atlanta. They excluded blacks and women from becoming members even after the Civil Rights laws for years. They finally ended that practice mainly because of pressure from the sponsors of their yearly golf event, The Masters. But if they had not, there is nothing anyone could do legally to force them to make a change. Because it was and is a private club.

    Now if a religious school or private group is receiving public funding, it is a different situation. The Federal Government or State, then can take steps to stop the funding or prosecute them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram View Post
    Just let some people sing... They sometimes really believe they are like multiple people at once. Nationality is one of the grossest things that will ever exist.
    So if your neighbor is flying a Flag of his country and treats it with respect, you find it gross? lol! That is just as bad as looking down on someone who exercises their right not to stand during a anthem or chooses not to display a flag.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Azgraal View Post
    Honest question here. What if you're a tourist currently at the US, and the place/event you're currently at starts playing the US anthem for some reason (from the reasonable sports event to a mall speaker oficer™ feeling extra patriotic that day), and you couldn't care less about anthems. You're not expected to stop everything you're doing and pay salute to it like it's a boon from the heavens in musical form, are you? I mean, it's not YOUR anthem...
    You follow the laws in the country your in. (When in Rome, do as Romans do)

    If I'm in London and their anthem kicks in, I will respect it however it's supposed to seen. (Of course if I'm in your country...*grins cheesily* it's made all the better for me in it anyway)

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    If you aren't in a military uniform you don't salute. If you are a civvy you put your hand over your heart. Everyone stands at attention.
    Like I said further up, they consider putting your hand on your a heart a 'salute'. There are many different types of salutes.

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