Vengeance Tuning done?

[Deleted]

Do you guys think Vengeance tuning is done?
Or can we expect more tunings?

[Heladys]

There will always be more tuning, as with every class. The only question is when.

[Vakna]

Don't know if you've actually played some Vengeance at 110 in Mythic+ but they're actually really good right now. Their state at 100 is in no way indicative of what it'll be like at max level.

[hydrium]

Don't know if you've actually played some Vengeance at 110 in Mythic+ but they're actually really good right now. Their state at 100 is in no way indicative of what it'll be like at max level.

I'm hoping this never catches on, need more people to drop DH thinking it's terrible.

[Vakna]

I'm hoping this never catches on, need more people to drop DH thinking it's terrible.

A lot of people will think it's terrible for a while because most people playing it will have no clue what they're doing in the first couple months. Always happens with a new class.

Fair warning to all though... once you go Vengeance tank it will ruin you. I mean really, you can never play anything else again comfortably.

[Sammonoske]

I'm hoping this never catches on, need more people to drop DH thinking it's terrible.

Don't think anyone is saying Veng is terrible, it just has several problems that should have been fixed months ago. Powerful in 5 mans, not so much in raids. Not to mention the talent tree is kinda garbage.

[Simulacrum]

Don't know if you've actually played some Vengeance at 110 in Mythic+ but they're actually really good right now. Their state at 100 is in no way indicative of what it'll be like at max level.

dunno why people keep saying this

100 is really representative of 110. you get like... 1 ability. maybe 2 active talents. that's not a big difference. no bigger than for other classes, anyway. they get stronger sure, but it's not omg night and day no way indicative and other hyperbole.

[Hexxidecimal]

dunno why people keep saying this

100 is really representative of 110. you get like... 1 ability. maybe 2 active talents. that's not a big difference. no bigger than for other classes, anyway. they get stronger sure, but it's not omg night and day no way indicative and other hyperbole.

If you mean functionally, they are pretty much the same. However they preform much better at 110. This is also in part to the artifact weapon though.

[Simulacrum]

If you mean functionally, they are pretty much the same. However they preform much better at 110. This is also in part to the artifact weapon though.

why would they perform better at 110? people keep saying it but I never see any reasons provided. you get a couple more panic buttons, and some minor passive bonuses (like every other class), but that's really it... and you don't need those for any content on live right now anyway since everyone overgears all of it as soon as they ding 100

[Redstripe]

there may be an armor buff coming.

[Vakna]

why would they perform better at 110? people keep saying it but I never see any reasons provided. you get a couple more panic buttons, and some minor passive bonuses (like every other class), but that's really it... and you don't need those for any content on live right now anyway since everyone overgears all of it as soon as they ding 100

Have you actually played it significantly at 110? Because I've been playing DH on beta for a couple months now and am currently sitting at 874 having cleared some pretty damn challenging Mythic+'s, some of the affixes are disgusting for tanks.

I'm telling you from personal experience that the spec is an order of magnitude better at 110 than it is at 100, it's literally almost like playing a new spec altogether. You've got much better pain gen with Felblade, reliable soul generation with fracture (or the choice of much bigger uptime on your powerful active mitigation with FTD) + fallout, much quicker sigils (which are insanely good in mythic+ btw), a cheat death mechanic which activates a full duration Meta, a huge panic button/big dps cooldown on a 1 minute timer. That's not even getting into the artifact with Soulcarver and it's recent buffs which make it a reeeeeaallly good button, your Meta procs from soul consumption, more parry from first few secs of DS, more dps by soaking magic damage with your empower wards (great to combine with other abilities since all the DH self healing scales with AP/Agility, unlike other tanks which are purely reactionary and depend on getting trucked to do big heals), charred warblades healing which admittedly is a bit underwhelming atm but can be decent with all the fire dmg artifact traits and the leech legendary if you can get your hands on it. I could go on, really I could..

I'm literally clearing regular heroics and some regular mythics without a healer atm, and that's without a tier set, raid trinkets or the best possible gear. So you tell me again why Vengeance is an underwhelming spec?

[Deleted]

Have you actually played it significantly at 110? Because I've been playing DH on beta for a couple months now and am currently sitting at 874 having cleared some pretty damn challenging Mythic+'s, some of the affixes are disgusting for tanks.

I'm telling you from personal experience that the spec is an order of magnitude better at 110 than it is at 100, it's literally almost like playing a new spec altogether. You've got much better pain gen with Felblade, reliable soul generation with fracture (or the choice of much bigger uptime on your powerful active mitigation with FTD) + fallout, much quicker sigils (which are insanely good in mythic+ btw), a cheat death mechanic which activates a full duration Meta, a huge panic button/big dps cooldown on a 1 minute timer. That's not even getting into the artifact with Soulcarver and it's recent buffs which make it a reeeeeaallly good button, your Meta procs from soul consumption, more parry from first few secs of DS, more dps by soaking magic damage with your empower wards (great to combine with other abilities since all the DH self healing scales with AP/Agility, unlike other tanks which are purely reactionary and depend on getting trucked to do big heals), charred warblades healing which admittedly is a bit underwhelming atm but can be decent with all the fire dmg artifact traits and the leech legendary if you can get your hands on it. I could go on, really I could..

I'm literally clearing regular heroics and some regular mythics without a healer atm, and that's without a tier set, raid trinkets or the best possible gear. So you tell me again why Vengeance is an underwhelming spec?

Hi vakna!

From your post, it seems they got way better healing then people ( Including me ) thought.
I noticed you said Fracture, Munkky says in his guide to use Soul rending, How come you use fracture ?
Is it used in Mythic/+ ? And Soul for raids?

Also, Fel devestation or Spirit bomb? Im thinking about using Spirit bomb, Tho watching a few clips of nythic+, Id say Fel would be great at start.

[hydrium]

A lot of people will think it's terrible for a while because most people playing it will have no clue what they're doing in the first couple months. Always happens with a new class.

Fair warning to all though... once you go Vengeance tank it will ruin you. I mean really, you can never play anything else again comfortably.

I jumped off my mount mid air on my shaman. I'm ruined.

[Hexxidecimal]

why would they perform better at 110? people keep saying it but I never see any reasons provided. you get a couple more panic buttons, and some minor passive bonuses (like every other class), but that's really it... and you don't need those for any content on live right now anyway since everyone overgears all of it as soon as they ding 100

Those panic buttons help out a lot. Soul Barrier in particular is nice. It's not a panic button but something you can use when you don't need the healing right now and you are otherwise wasting some of that healing from souls. Those talents really smooth out the tight spots DH may find themselves in now. Plus there is a weird gear break point. I don't know what it is, my testing was never that exact. I just remember feeling very squishy and hard to heal. After a few upgrades I was much easier to keep a live. The pain bringer trait is also pretty great. With the right build you can keep it up pretty consistently.

Do you not find your 110 Vengence DK better?

[Vakna]

Hi vakna!

From your post, it seems they got way better healing then people ( Including me ) thought.
I noticed you said Fracture, Munkky says in his guide to use Soul rending, How come you use fracture ?
Is it used in Mythic/+ ? And Soul for raids?

Also, Fel devestation or Spirit bomb? Im thinking about using Spirit bomb, Tho watching a few clips of nythic+, Id say Fel would be great at start.

The thing to clarify about DH healing is that it will absolutely get outstripped by DK healing for example when you cross a certain damage threshold, theirs being reactionary means theoretically there is no limit to how much they can self heal as long as they survive the preceding damage. With a DH your healing gets stronger with your dps stat (agility) and to a lesser extend your mastery as that too buffs AP. This means DH can heal a lot more reliably and constantly - which is a big deal, you also have the boon of a significant portion of DH healing being completely passive and integrated into your damage output.

As for the talents - pure personal preference in that row, they are all good. I'll be honest and say I haven't read Munkky's guide and have just been using talents based on my own personal testing over 2 months of Beta. Soul Rending is great for aoe when you can reliably do damage and increases in value with you artifact traits that increase your Meta uptime, Fractures provides a significant damage source on single target fights and reliably generates souls for future use - for this reason you probably have it backwards, Meta Leech is better in Mythic+ and Fracture is better in raids. FTD is the outlier, a passive choice that is good basically everywhere and gets stronger the more souls you can generate, only place it's not good is when the majority of damage you're taking is magic (as DS does nothing against that).

Spirit Bomb is nigh on useless, the only place I can see it fitting in is potentially a situation where you vastly overgear the content, have zero risk of dying, and just want the extra sustained aoe with no cooldown for quick clearing. The 10% healing it provides, as well as wasting a healing soul fragment, in no way stacks up to the defensive benefit of Fel Devastation - which provides you with a ridiculous amount of healing and burst aoe. Spirit Bomb looks fun in theory but it's pretty meh in practice.

Those panic buttons help out a lot. Soul Barrier in particular is nice. It's not a panic button but something you can use when you don't need the healing right now and you are otherwise wasting some of that healing from souls

Soul Barrier is kinda in the same vein as Spirit Bomb, though being on the last talent row in the presence of a cheat death mechanic arguably puts it in an even worse position. Soul Barrier is one of those paradoxical abilities - it's never going to be good to use until you outgear content so much that using it is irrelevant. A cheat death mechanic that activates a full duration Meta - which then interacts with other powerful talents and traits, it's just no contest. Especially in a world where a lot of the dungeon modifiers in Mythic+ absolutely wreck the tanks.

I did try a few runs with Soul Barrier, but you just feel naked without the assurance of a get out of dead free card every 3 minutes.

[Gratlim]

I'm literally clearing regular heroics and some regular mythics without a healer atm, and that's without a tier set, raid trinkets or the best possible gear. So you tell me again why Vengeance is an underwhelming spec?

Hi Vakna. First thank you for some positive feedback on the experience at 110. All I read everywhere is how Guardian druid is top dog and DH bottom tier at 110. If I understand you right, might it be possible for a Vengeance DH to actually solo Mythics & Heroics. The self heals seem insane and the cheat death talent might make it possible i guess?

[Raiju]

Vengeance was considered lower tier (not bottom, that was BrM's spot) in raids specifically - they were nerfed to hold them back in dungeons from being completely ridiculous where they are strong anyway.

This was before the very significant buffs they received. I would not bat an eyelid at people running veng over bdk for mythics right now, although I'd argue the bdk is still slightly better.

[Vakna]

Hi Vakna. First thank you for some positive feedback on the experience at 110. All I read everywhere is how Guardian druid is top dog and DH bottom tier at 110. If I understand you right, might it be possible for a Vengeance DH to actually solo Mythics & Heroics. The self heals seem insane and the cheat death talent might make it possible i guess?

Absolutely, though I think by the end of the first tier soloing the regular heroic modes of dungeons will be a possibility for most tanks in general. When I say I'm doing it right now on beta I mean without a healer specifically, having the rest of the group as dps (4dps + Veng DH), the utility and faster kill speed that brings is a huge contributor. The regular Mythics (not the keystone ones) are only slightly more difficult than the heroic modes - something like 20-25% more hp and damage and a few extra mechanics here and there. So if you can solo a heroic the mythic version isn't that far off at all. Keystone dungeons are a different beast entirely, mostly because of the time restriction.

[Lost Zero]

We'll see. I love the class, but I definitely feel squishy at 100.

My co tank (who is an alt from a decent Mythic guild - and plays way too much WoW) says that they don't want a DH tanking Mythic progression for them, not because it's bad but because other tanks are just better. I don't know and doubt it will affect me much, but it's still a worry.

[Hexxidecimal]

The thing to clarify about DH healing is that it will absolutely get outstripped by DH healing for example when you cross a certain damage threshold, theirs being reactionary means theoretically there is no limit to how much they can self heal as long as they survive the preceding damage. With a DH your healing gets stronger with your dps stat (agility) and to a lesser extend your mastery as that too buffs AP. This means DH can heal a lot more reliably and constantly - which is a big deal, you also have the boon of a significant portion of DH healing being completely passive and integrated into your damage output.

As for the talents - pure personal preference in that row, they are all good. I'll be honest and say I haven't read Munkky's guide and have just been using talents based on my own personal testing over 2 months of Beta. Soul Rending is great for aoe when you can reliably do damage and increases in value with you artifact traits that increase your Meta uptime, Fractures provides a significant damage source on single target fights and reliably generates souls for future use - for this reason you probably have it backwards, Meta Leech is better in Mythic+ and Fracture is better in raids. FTD is the outlier, a passive choice that is good basically everywhere and gets stronger the more souls you can generate, only place it's not good is when the majority of damage you're taking is magic (as DS does nothing against that).

Spirit Bomb is nigh on useless, the only place I can see it fitting in is potentially a situation where you vastly overgear the content, have zero risk of dying, and just want the extra sustained aoe with no cooldown for quick clearing. The 10% healing it provides, as well as wasting a healing soul fragment, in no way stacks up to the defensive benefit of Fel Devastation - which provides you with a ridiculous amount of healing and burst aoe. Spirit Bomb looks fun in theory but it's pretty meh in practice.





Soul Barrier is kinda in the same vein as Spirit Bomb, though being on the last talent row in the presence of a cheat death mechanic arguably puts it in an even worse position. Soul Barrier is one of those paradoxical abilities - it's never going to be good to use until you outgear content so much that using it is irrelevant. A cheat death mechanic that activates a full duration Meta - which then interacts with other powerful talents and traits, it's just no contest. Especially in a world where a lot of the dungeon modifiers in Mythic+ absolutely wreck the tanks.

I did try a few runs with Soul Barrier, but you just feel naked without the assurance of a get out of dead free card every 3 minutes.

I get that and I run last resort when I am pugging. But in a solid group, the general expectation is that I am not gonna die. It still happens sure, and when we are learning something I run last resort as well. There are two reasons I like soul barrier when I have a group I trust. First is it allows me to pull faster. The biggest oh shit moment I face on a regular basis is pulling AoE packs. So I like to use this shield on the last mob of a pull when I have built up some soul fragments. Then I jump into the next group. I only need about 2-3 seconds of the shield till I can get pain enough to start pushing my mitigation buttons. In other words I can somewhat safely keep my pace up with it since it's cooldown is so short. Also I have found that it helps in situations where incoming damage spikes. Like tank switching. I can build up a shield for when damage spikes come in. I find it incredibly good.